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since we're talking about it so much lately: trans education 101

 
  

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Disco is My Class War
04:57 / 22.01.02
I have it in mind to start up a trans education thread, because lots of people seem to not know much about transsexuality and transgender, or make a whole lot of assumptions about it. I should add that right now, I feel like I have a big investment in trans stuff 'cause, well. A few of you already know that I'm thinking about doing crazy genderqueer stuff to my body like taking testosterone and maybe getting top surgery. I guess now everyone does. (NB: This doesn't mean that I am definitely going ahead with anything, it just means I'm thinking about it. Exploring possibilities and talking to various experts. And coming out like this is a big scarything, so if you don't mind it'd be great if you could ignore that I said anything and go away now. *grin* Actually no, I welcome questions, but you know what I'm like so please ask uh intelligent ones. And don't ask me to explain why I am coming out in some parentheses in the Head Shop; suffice to say that I find the Conversation a little alien and scary at times.)

Yeah, where was I? The website transfeminism.org has a set of guidelines for talking about transsexuality, transgender, transsexuals and basically trans anything, which have helped me a lot anyhow but might also be useful for people engaging in threads like the trans exlusion one and the 'Gender Trick' one. They were written by Jacob Hale, who's a hero of mine.

You can find them here.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
05:07 / 22.01.02
nice one, rosa. i will check out the link as soon as i get a minute. i want to know more, especially about terminology, cos i fucked up a bit on the gig i'm organising, i think, by being not as educated as i could be.
 
 
grant
17:24 / 22.01.02
If I can have the first stupid question (since this is a 101 thread, after all) --

Why?

(I'm intentionally leaving that one as open as possible.)
 
 
Persephone
17:40 / 22.01.02
I have a 101 question, also...

Is it totally outmoded to align sex with biology (and the terms man/woman) and gender with sociology (and the terms male/female), even keeping in mind that all words explode at some point?
 
 
grant
17:47 / 22.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Persephone:
I have a 101 question, also...

Is it totally outmoded to align sex with biology (and the terms man/woman) and gender with sociology (and the terms male/female), even keeping in mind that all words explode at some point?



I tend to read both terms as intersections - where biology and sociology meet. One looks down one road, the other looks down the other, but there's always something at the periphery. (Oh, %that clarified things%. Sorry.)

But it might be nice to set up an agreed definition beforehand.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:57 / 22.01.02
I would suggest along with Rosa that everyone interested in this thread take a look at "Gender Fuckyou", also of the HEad Shop, as an interesting look at how people look at transgender issues and sex.

[ 23-01-2002: Message edited by: The Haus under the Ocean ]
 
 
Ria
22:03 / 22.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
One of the theories I've heard recently concerned the differing motivations for individuals choosing to undergo male-to-female and female-to-male transformation. Broadly speaking, it was postulated that the male-to-female's motivations are individual ones, firmly rooted in personal identity - whereas female-to-males were also motivated by a sense of their place within a specific subculture or social grouping (I guess they're talking about the Del Grace and Pat Califia stuff here).


to simplify *extremely* both kinds of motivation have played a part in my decisions (not a typo... I mean more than one decision) to the extent that you can extricate them. though the personal aspect does outweigh it. the subculture I have in mind literally does not exist yet but could.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
03:05 / 23.01.02
I think I am still working out the why's of it all, grant, and anyhow if I were to really talk about it in any depth I'd end up posting a mammoth book. At any rate, I'm currently doing a zine about all this, so if anyone wants a copy when I finish it they're welcome.

But in some kind of nutshell... I've known for a long time that normative ideas about what a woman is don't apply to me. I thought that this was okay, and for a while I had decided that gender was 'cultural' or 'social', not something which mattered to me in terms of a different embodiment or visilibility. So I figured that being a dyke, looking kind of like a tomboy most of the time, taking part in the odd drag king adventure and exploring 'masculinity' in ways which involved psychical identifications were pretty much the extent of id'ing as masculine. BDSM has been a big part of this. It's complicated, because actually sometimes I like wearing skirts and being femme, and visually I don't pass as a man at all unless I'm dragged up to the nines. But at the same time, all the femme gear I wear in that headspace makes me feel like a drag queen, ie it doesn't feel natural at all.

I've been playing with this stuff for a while, and at various stages (like about a year ago, and a couple of months ago) I get shocked by the realisation that actually, being in a far more masculine *body* would not only feel way more comfortable, but I've been fantasising about it for, oh, about four or five years? I don't know how I know that I'd feel more comfortable; I just do. And it's paying off: f'rinstance, at the moment I'm experimenting with strapping my tits down and having a pretty flat chest in public, at work, for going out, on the street. It feels good. It also feels sexy. And it feels right enough that maybe I would like to be flat-chested permanently. There are other issues, body image issues about feeling too round and curvy, which I had always discounted as being to do with feminist body image issues; not being able to 'let go' and 'love my body the way it is'. I am finding that actually I don't much care about how much I weigh, but I'd really like to have a body which doesn't immediately scream 'she'. And I'm doing something about it now.

quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:

One of the theories I've heard recently concerned the differing motivations for individuals choosing to undergo male-to-female and female-to-male transformation. Broadly speaking, it was postulated that the male-to-female's motivations are individual ones, firmly rooted in personal identity - whereas female-to-males were also motivated by a sense of their place within a specific subculture or social grouping (I guess they're talking about the Del Grace and Pat Califia stuff here).


I agree with Ria: agreeing that both kinds of motivations have influenced me is to simplify in the extreme. I am definitely influenced by the broader visibility of drag kinging and ftm's and general female-embodied masculine genderfuck culture. Sure. But it has as much to do with my personal feelings about my body and my gender identity as participation in a genderqueer community; and actually at the moment I'm really not very involved in that community, which makes me feel like my motivations are probably as strong and clear as they're gonna get. Lots of claims have been made in the US that the number of dykes who transition is evidence of an 'ftm fad' -- which I think the above delineation strays towards a little too much for my liking. Also, contestation about who is a 'proper' candidate for transitioning is rife, both in medical institutions and within trans communities. I think I've already made myself clear about how I feel about that in a previous thread: I think anyone's motivation for wanting to transition (and to whatever stage) should be regarded as valiud and healthy, and supported. And, like Ria, I look forward to the day when there is actually a properly visible subculture you can hear about on the news and see in the media, 'cause no matter what stories you've heard, transfolk are hard to find. Especially when you need their help.

Does this all make sense?

Persephone wrote:
"Is it totally outmoded to align sex with biology (and the terms man/woman) and gender with sociology (and the terms male/female), even keeping in mind that all words explode at some point?"

It it relevant? I mean, to me the division between sex and gender has gone far beyond two mutually-exclusive categories anyhow. Even thinking of sex and gender along a kind of continuum of masculinity or femininity is pretty unrepresentative, for me. Words do have an unwieldy habit of exploding, little bastards.
 
 
Ganesh
05:41 / 23.01.02
Ria and Rosa: thanks very much. My own experience with male-to-female transgender individuals suggests that they're more likely to exist (or at least, to feel they exist) within a vacuum. It's nice to know there's a sense of community out there, however embryonic.

I don't think anyone who wants gender modification surgery (and possibly even hormonal treatment) should be considered to have a "valid" claim, however. If the feeling's persistent and enduring then sure; there's a minority of individuals, however, who are acutely psychotically unwell (schizophrenia, mania, psychotic depression, etc., etc.) and it's basically the psychiatrist's role to establish that the decision's being taken in sound mind (and they didn't want to be, ooh, a tiger, say, a couple of weeks ago)...
 
 
Ria
11:42 / 23.01.02
Rosa, thanx for the kind words.

Ganesh, I'll chime in with some confirmation to your point about MTF isolation. I spoke over the 'net with someone who had transition circa 1980. up until recently she had never even heard of MTF lesbians. (which makes her all the more courageous for having chosen to live that way.)

I don't know what to think of your points right now. I have run these through my head myself, unavoidably, having gone through the psychiatric hoops myself but I do say that going through the psychiatric 'work-up' compounded the pain for me at least. a volunteer council of other trans people would do a better, more humane job of doing this.

(though I mean the first time I ever sought to go to a TG center the trans person muffed it there big time though would make more some lengthy digression.)

anyhow when I talked about subcultures I also meant the freedom to change gender in ways that don't follow this transitive progression from male to female, female to male. female to other. male to other. y'know.
male to female butches do exist. people with extreme genital modifications do exist. female to male sissies exist too. this leads the way into other weirder territories.

[ 23-01-2002: Message edited by: Ria ]
 
 
Ierne
12:48 / 23.01.02
...anyhow when I talked about subcultures I also meant the freedom to change gender in ways that don't follow this transitive progression from male to female, female to male. female to other. male to other. y'know...this leads the way into other weirder territories.–Ria

I'm really glad Ria made this point.

For most of my adult life I've felt more "other" than anything else, and one of the great challenges in my life is being true to myself as someone neither this nor that but something quite wonderfully different. There have been times when I've considered hormonal and/or surgical modification, but (at this point) have decided not to go down that route (ankle surgery was traumatic enough for me...)

Thanks for the thread, Rosa.
 
 
grant
17:23 / 23.01.02
Here's a less "101" question:

Is "female" a subculture?

Here, semi-relevant background:
My main exposure to the nuts-n-bolts of this stuff was when a few friends of mine and I went up to Zephyrhills, FL and met Jack Yount. This was probably less than year after the RE/Search Modern Primitives book came out, and Yount was sort of a pioneer in body piercing/modification, and claimed to be the most genitally-modified man in America. The stuff he'd done, though, wasn't quite as spectacular to see (and seeing seemed to be part of the kick) as it had been, because he'd been taking estrogen to, in his words, atrophy himself.
Now here's the thing: as far as I can tell, it seemed to be directed more towards his genitals than the body/person as a whole. He didn't seem to be making a cultural/social move into another gender - although, let's face it, I was a goofy college kid and may have been missing out on some stuff. This was just an extension of, well, doing stuff to his body that made it look and feel different. He didn't seem interested in breaking out of his cultural role (still had a well-trimmed beard, fit in with the generally right-wing/blue-collar "look" of a small Florida town when his clothes were on).
So, uh, I suppose what he was doing at the time would count as "trans" stuff, but I'm not sure how much had to do with joining a different subculture, right?

So maybe I'm asking: how physical is trans-sexuality?

Oh, and chalk me up as interested in the zine.
 
 
Ganesh
18:50 / 23.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Ria:
I don't know what to think of your points right now. I have run these through my head myself, unavoidably, having gone through the psychiatric hoops myself but I do say that going through the psychiatric 'work-up' compounded the pain for me at least. a volunteer council of other trans people would do a better, more humane job of doing this.


Possibly better in terms of "recognising" transgender drives and inclinations; possibly not as good as psychiatrists at identifying/diagnosing the presence of serious psychiatric illnesses which may be clouding the issue.

Ideally, the "work-up" should include both.
 
 
alas
19:06 / 23.01.02
Rosa--thanks for the link to the Jacob Hale piece; Hale's piece is as eloquent and concise a statement as any I've encountered about how persons working from outside almost any non-dominant cultural group should approach the group one is interested in (with modification of course).... especially liked the point about "using those with less power within institutionalized, material and discursive structures as your meal ticket (retention, tenure, promotion)"--this has happened so often in academe regarding the Big Three Categories (race, class, gender)... well, that was actually probably how most white males--and white females, for that matter-- _got_ tenure in the humanities in the '90s.

(btw--I love Bornstein's my gender workbook--v. fun. What else has she written?)
 
 
Ria
14:15 / 24.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:


Possibly better in terms of "recognising" transgender drives and inclinations; possibly not as good as psychiatrists at identifying/diagnosing the presence of serious psychiatric illnesses which may be clouding the issue.


I think that layfolk can tell these problems just as well as psychiatrists.

when I have seen psychiatrists I have thought of myself as judged guilty and expected to prove my innocence which anyone would find alienating. I have more ease in opening up to ordinary people than people in the psychiatric profession for that reason.
 
 
Ria
14:17 / 24.01.02
quote:Originally posted by alas:
(btw--I love Bornstein's my gender workbook--v. fun. What else has she written?)


she has co-written a novel called Nearly Roadkill and a memoir the name of which I can't remember.
 
 
Ierne
15:25 / 24.01.02
More info on Kate Bornstein.

Hope this helps.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
15:41 / 24.01.02
For anyone with access to British TV, this Sunday (27/01) at 9:00 on BBC2 the next episode of 'How to Build a Human' will be 'The Secrets of Sex', about human sexual reproduction but will also involve 'Max Toff change from a woman into a man (the programme monitors her mental and behavioural changes as well as physical ones) after undergoing a course of testosterone injections. Max is sceptical, but the scientists are startled at the results.' Whatever that is supposed to mean. I haven't watched any of this series thus far as I got pissed off with the BBC's big budget science shows when 'Space with Sam Neill' just seemed to be going through all the different ways our planet can be destroyed, and the adverts made this out to be more of the same (though on a smaller level obviously). However, I'll be recording this, on the off chance it turns out to be interesting.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:57 / 24.01.02
Just wanted to say ta for the thread. Since I know exactly one (1) transperson, it's helpful.
 
 
Ganesh
18:12 / 24.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Ria:
I think that layfolk can tell these problems just as well as psychiatrists.


I don't. I really don't. Some people are naturally empathic, sure, and some psychiatrists aren't. Formal training and experience remain important, though. But then, having gone down that career route, I guess I would say that.

quote:[/when I have seen psychiatrists I have thought of myself as judged guilty and expected to prove my innocence which anyone would find alienating.

That's unfortunate, but I'm not convinced your experience is a) intentional on the part of the psychiatrists you've encountered, and b) broadly generalisable. Equally, I find tax-drivers easier to talk to than my colleagues, but I don't think that has any major bearing on their ability to diagnose or treat mental illness.

I guess if we want to discuss this in any depth we should start another thread, eh?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
23:12 / 24.01.02
No, let's talk about it here. The problem I have with assuming that gender 'problems' should be dealt with by a psychiatrist is the assumption that there *will* be other psychiatric problems, in at least enough cases to warrant that checking. I guess I'm slightly suspicious because I suspect that a rhetoric of transpeople having 'other psychiatric problems' could easily be used as a political weapon to stop access to hormones and surgery, if and when 'gender identity disorder' is depathologised. Which means a diagnosis of 'yes, by law you have the right to request a sexchange and be granted it -- but you're not a sane and rational person, so no you don't'.

I know that's not how *you* mean it, Ganesh. And I am more than hopeful that some psychiatrists and mental health professionals can subvert the system by using that required therapy time to support and validate someone's desire for transition, and help them make their own autonomous choice -- rather than using it to 'diagnose' or 'check'. Maybe you'd be a good candidate for that, eh, Ganesh.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
23:14 / 24.01.02
No, let's talk about it here. The problem I have with assuming that gender 'problems' should be dealt with by a psychiatrist is the assumption that there *will* be other psychiatric problems, in at least enough cases to warrant that checking. I guess I'm slightly suspicious because I suspect that a rhetoric of transpeople having 'other psychiatric problems' could easily be used as a political weapon to stop access to hormones and surgery, if and when 'gender identity disorder' is depathologised. Which means a diagnosis of 'yes, by law you have the right to request a sexchange and be granted it -- but you're not a sane and rational person, so no you don't'.

I know that's not how *you* mean it, Ganesh. And I am more than hopeful that some psychiatrists and mental health professionals can subvert the system by using that required therapy time to support and validate someone's desire for transition, and help them make their own autonomous choice -- rather than using it to 'diagnose' or 'check'. Maybe you'd be a good candidate for that, eh, Ganesh.
 
 
Ganesh
23:36 / 24.01.02
No, bloody hell, no, that's not what I'm saying at all. I was not "assuming" other psychiatric problems coexist with transgender orientation (although depression does, for pretty obvious societal reasons).

I can understand why, historically, you might be wary, Rosa, but a simplistic "transgender equals psychiatrically unstable" causal relationship is not what I'm implying here. I'm talking, basically, about major psychotic disorders which, not uncommonly, cause a wide range of bizarre bodily experiences and sensations. Given that schizophrenia, say, has an overall prevalence of around 1% within the population generally, it's not unreasonable to suppose that a small minority of those seeking gender modification surgery might be psychotically-motivated - and that it's important to exclude that particular sub-group. Which is not to say that schizophrenic people can't also be truly transgender in orientation; just that we need to be damn sure, before performing irreversible surgery, that they're not acutely unwell.

Dunno about healthcare systems elsewhere but here in the UK, it's not uncommon for any non-essential cosmetic surgical procedure (and yes, I'm aware that those adjectives are highly contentious) to be preceded by a psychiatric opinion. To some extent, the surgeon must be protected against the possibility that their patient may say, post-operatively, "I wasn't in my right mind; I didn't want the surgery". It happens. Not frequently, but it happens. In private pay-as-you-go healthcare systems, of course, this defensive element is bypassed completely - but a penis construction, for example, costs around £30,000. ("Easier to make a hole than a pole", they say.)

Also, I don't think it's a bad idea for psychiatrists to be the specialists charged with prescribing and monitoring the hormones, as these can have unpredictable effects, particularly on mood.

In the early 1970s, only around 15% of those requesting surgery were "granted" gender reassignment surgery. These days, it's around 90%. I think that reflects the increased availability of information on transgender issues.

(Sorry, bit heated there. I know you're not getting at me, personally, Rosa. I feel quite passionately about this stuff... )

[ 25-01-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Bill Posters
23:36 / 24.01.02
Rosa, I may disagree with your attitude and much of what you say but putting that aside just for a second, can I wish you all the best with this? Like, a. I hope it makes you happy/happier and b. I totally hope you don't get mucked about because of it. I know I'll be preaching to the converted here okay and the pathologisation thing's been covered but I have been at a meeting where a formal complaint was dismissed out of hand because the complainer was transgendered and therefore, apparently, not sane or rational. This, BTW, happened in a uni sociology dept of all places supposedly radical, a couple of years back, and what's more the guy accused of bad practice was a supposed leftie with a not insignificant involvement in '68.

Just good luck and be careful out there, is what I'm saying.

Right, now that's said we can get back to abusing each other as per usual.
 
 
Ganesh
10:08 / 25.01.02
Out of curiosity, Bill, that wasn't the same transgendered lecturer that Germaine Greer was so unpleasant about a few years back, was it?
 
 
that
10:45 / 25.01.02
Also just wanted to say, good thread, thanks. And, Rosa, the best of luck to you.
(I also would be very interested in a copy of your zine if possible).
 
 
Bill Posters
12:52 / 25.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:
Out of curiosity, Bill, that wasn't the same transgendered lecturer that Germaine Greer was so unpleasant about a few years back, was it?


Actually it wasn't. Um, I'll e-mail you. More to be said...
 
 
Ganesh
12:53 / 25.01.02
Okay...
 
 
Ria
15:03 / 25.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Lozt Cause:
[...]the next episode of 'How to Build a Human' will be 'The Secrets of Sex', about human sexual reproduction but will also involve 'Max Toff change from a woman into a man (the programme monitors her mental and behavioural changes as well as physical ones) after undergoing a course of testosterone injections. Max is sceptical, but the scientists are startled at the results.


I noticed that they referred to Max as "she" rather than "he". it always bugs me when the media does that. in the US at least journalists make it a formal pratice to use pronouns for pre-op TS'es based on their "birth" sex. archaic and insulting IMHO.
 
 
Ria
15:06 / 25.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Mordant C@rnival:
Just wanted to say ta for the thread. Since I know exactly one (1) transperson, it's helpful.


you may know others who have not revealed themselves as such as well. trans men in particular can blend in with ease.
 
 
Ria
15:15 / 25.01.02
<somewhat off-topic digression begins>

Ganesh, maybe I have spent a lot of time around schizophrenics (I mean this literally, not flippantly) but I fail to see how they could avoid standing out.

as for my perception of therapists presuming me 'guilty' until proved otherwise...

quote:Originally posted by Ganesh v4.2:

That's unfortunate, but I'm not convinced your experience is a) intentional on the part of the psychiatrists you've encountered, and b) broadly generalisable.


agree with a), b) deserves a more general discussion, in order for me to not gloss over my answer. (and I haven't thought it through yet.)

<digression ends>

[ 25-01-2002: Message edited by: Ria ]
 
 
Ganesh
15:31 / 25.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Ria:
I noticed that they referred to Max as "she" rather than "he". it always bugs me when the media does that. in the US at least journalists make it a formal pratice to use pronouns for pre-op TS'es based on their "birth" sex. archaic and insulting IMHO.


It's taken me a while to work out which pronoun to use in the medical records. Basically, in the 'Personal History' section, when describing the individual's early life and upbringing, I refer to them in terms of physical birth sex; everywhere else, I refer to them in terms of "chosen" gender. I use their favoured name but usually make a single reference to birth name in the background section, to avoid confusion.

I feel quite sorry for transgender people because the "success" of their transformation is inevitably judged, by the outside world, on the degree to which they're able to "pass" as their chosen gender - based on fairly stereotypical notions of femininity and masculinity. Thus Dana International, say, however she feels subjectively, is seen as somehow more "successful" than a more physically ambiguous individual might be.

[ 25-01-2002: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Ria
15:32 / 25.01.02
synchronicity. I found this off today's Fortean Times news feed.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,639119,00.html
 
 
Ganesh
15:46 / 25.01.02
Yeah, I saw that. An odd one; I haven't quite made up my mind about him (and I do see him as a "him")...
 
 
grant
17:34 / 25.01.02
quote:Six foot tall and bespectacled, Mr Young was one of the City's most highly rated investment experts and the unit trust funds he managed were top performers.

An Oxford maths graduate, he specialised in European stocks and hi-tech investments and had just been named investment manager of the year.

His private life followed the City pattern - substantial Buckinghamshire home, second wife, two toddlers and a salary of around £300,000 a year.

But behind the facade of success was a man described as "intellectually arrogant", and said to feel constrained by the myriad rules and regulations designed to protect investors.

Mr Young showed no sign of mental instability until the fraud was uncovered, and for some time there were jokes about him employing the "Ernest Saunders defence".

But the scale of Mr Young's problems became clear when, facing fraud charges, he appeared at pre-trial hearings dressed as a woman. He chose a new name, Elizabeth, and favoured pinks, purples and high heeled shoes.

His lawyers claimed he was unfit to stand trial, but the serious fraud office challenged that claim and a court then heard lurid descriptions of Mr Young's behaviour. He told psychiatrists he heard voices urging him to change sex and eventually acted, using a craft knife, fishing line and scissors in repeated attempts to castrate himself. He inflicted horrific injuries and eventually lost one testicle.


Note use of value-laden word "horrific."
 
  

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