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Un-Schooling

 
  

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Matthew Fluxington
18:45 / 01.01.02
I am very curious to know what you all think about 'un-schooling'/'home schooling', and schools both public and private. Lately I've been reading a lot of essays and books by John Taylor Gatto, who is a former NY City public school teacher who has written extensively criticizing public and private schools, which has led me to bring this up here. To get a feeling for what his views are, you can pursue the links on the page I linked to...

It's a pretty huge topic, so I'll try to get the ball rolling with a few questions.

*What do you think, if any, are the virtues of schools?

*Did you attend a public or private school?

*Do you feel as though you learned anything from school, or do you feel it was a stifling experience that kept you from studying and learning about your own intellectual interests?

*Is anyone here homeschooled? What are your feelings on homeschooling or "unschooling" as advocated by Grace Llewellyn?

*If you had a child, would you consider alternative methods of education rather than having the child attend public or private school?

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: Flux = Currently Fabulous ]
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:57 / 01.01.02
Well, there's moi. But you really, really, don't want to get me started...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:56 / 01.01.02
No! No! Get started!
 
 
Shortfatdyke
06:00 / 02.01.02
i would have loved to have been homeschooled. i went to an abysmal secondary comprehensive, in at 11 very intelligent, loads of potential, out at 16 barely able to add up. i wanted to learn but was emotionally stamped on for five years so gave up. i would have loved to have been pushed to learn as much as i could and not have to spend playtimes hiding from bullies. i had no social life anyway, as it was too dangerous for me to leave the house after school.... i hated the dumbing down at my school, the desperate attempts of others to fit in rather than be educated. schools are not the place for education! stifling, yes, definately.

and i realise that answer is probably not very coherent. fact is, i feel incredibly cheated and very angry still about it all.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:23 / 02.01.02
The more distance I get from my schooling, the more fucked up I realise it was. A great many of my teachers were obviously mentally ill (two alkies, a klepto, a manic depressive, etc.) and others were just downright nasty bastards. I have friends, who, it turned out, happen to be dyslexic, but were treated like fucking dunces by wanker teachers who never actually bothered to try and work out what was actually "wrong" with them. Some were frequently told they would "amount to nothing", that they were "useless".... This stuff has really affected their self-confidence...it's just not on. One of the dangers of any type of schooling is that stupid, unhappy human beings are involved, but, at least in the case of home education, those stupid, unhappy human beings may be the pupil's parents and might actually care about them as opposed to not really giving a shit/actively disliking them.

Oh, BTW, I'm DO understand that there's another side to this story. I'm sure I'd hate those bastard teenagers, too.

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Guns 'n' Runces ]
 
 
Cat Chant
08:23 / 02.01.02
I was 'home schooled' for the last year of primary school (age 10-11) and it was a bad idea. I liked school, I was good at it and wasn't badly bullied, and being told at the age of 10 that you are far too intelligent to mingle with the common herd is not good for your social development. Or indeed your relationships with your siblings. Also I wasn't taught anything, except how to write a sonnet (of all things), and spent the year wandering about in a strange fantasy world in my head. In some ways it was better than school, though, in that I wasn't spending five solid days doing nothing but endless long division sums after having got the hang of them fairly quickly, and not being allowed to read more than a chapter of an age-appropriate book per day.

It took me a long time to realize that schools are indeed glorified baby-sitting machines/conformity factories, since I came from a very academic middle-class (aspiring to upper-middle) family with a solid liberal belief in Education (and flipside, scarier belief that if someone did badly at school it was Hir Own Fault and Doomed Hir For Life). I now think that the boundary between school/the 'Academy' and the rest of the community should be far more permeable - basically, the whole world should be like Summerhill (if that's what it's called, that school with no curriculum).

If I had a child, I would try and get as many of my friends as possible to live in the same road as me and bring it up semi-communally. If there were enough other kids in the semi-commune, we'd teach them ourselves, but if not I'd probably send it to school, I guess, just because everyone goes to school - so being home-schooled is almost like being deprived of a language, or a code, or something, a whole set of common cultural references. I guess school also teaches you that life involves people having arbitrary authority over you, which is a useful lesson to learn, and gives you the opportunity to come up with ways of resisting authority or turning unsympathetic institutions to your own advantage.
 
 
Little Mother
11:17 / 02.01.02
Had my parents been able they probably would have sent me to public school (aka private). There are pros and cons to all methods of schooling. From a purely academic point of view the comprehensive system failed both me and my brother. I remember being in an english class with people who could barely read english while myself and my friends were trying to get A's. There was no possible way that everyone in the class could get taught properly. My brother is dyslexic (only recognised after a long fight by my parents) so almost had the opposite problem. My parents believed that in a public school where that classes were smaller and more tailored to the abilities of the pupils we might both have got the teaching we needed. I am tempted to go with them on that one. I know public schools get a really bad rep and the story is probably different from those who've actually attended them but I thought I'd try to throw in something nice, its just gone christmas
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:36 / 02.01.02
I know very little about how schools work in the UK... would anyone be willing to give some explanation about this for the uninformed, in terms of funding, ciriculum, discipline, homework, grading, age and class segregation, etc?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:04 / 02.01.02
Oh crikey. Erm. It depends on a whole bunch of things, but... here goes.

Public school (i.e. fee-paying): if it's one of the big ones (Eton, Winchester, Benenden etc) pupils will almost certainly have gone through prep school (ages approx seven to thirteen) and will then go on to public school (thirteen to eighteen) - though this isn't always the case. I went to a fee-paying day school and the junior department went from pre-school (3-4) to 11, and the senior school from 12 to 18 (the last two yeasr were called sixth form). Though fee-paying schools are monstrously expensive - boarding is likely to set you back up to twenty grand a year at the top ones, and a term's fees at my old place is now over a thousand quid - many of them will have fairly rigorous entry tests. They tend to have smaller class sizes, and therefore children benefit from more attention and achieve better results. However, there still exists a cadre of public schools which seem to thrive on little but snobbery & silver spoons.

State schools (publically-funded) are usually divided into primary school (5-11) and secondary school (12-16) followed by sixth-form college (17-18, though some schools have sixth forms attached). Sometimes the system includes a middle school, which covers more-or-less the same years as the prep school.

There are also various special schools (e.g. for the deaf, for kids with special educational needs, ADHD, etc). And schools attached to various faiths, some of which are state funded and some of which are not - most confusing.

Curriculum: most if not all schools follow the National Curriculum, which includes key stage exams (I think four sets) - the earliest one of which is sat at the age of 7 or so, I believe. The last of these stages, taken at 15-16, is the GCSE (General Certificate of Secondary Education) - people usually take between seven or eleven of these, depending on ability. The ones you *have* to take are English Language and Literature, Maths and science (either Combined or one of Physics, Chemistry & Biology). After that it depends what your school offers, and how bright and dedicated you are. Sixth-form exams are A-levels or AS-levels, you usually do three or four, and these count towards your university entrance. Hardly anyone does enough languages here. Public schools have more leeway to deviate from the curriculum, but tend to keep to the exam structure.

Lots of public schools have scholarships or bursaries for bright children with no money.

Is that any help?

I forgot - in Scotland they have Scottish Highers instead of A & AS-levels - you do four or five of these.

[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: Kit-Cat Club ]
 
 
Shortfatdyke
12:18 / 02.01.02
discipline in state schools is a bit of a hot potato right now.

when i was at school teachers were allowed to do just about anything and get away with it. now the balance has gone the other way and there are a lot of malicious accusations against teachers who try and break up fights. i don't believe in corporal punishment in any form but i do believe in boundaries. my ex is a teacher in a really tough school and she is pretty amazing at getting through to some very damaged kids. she is strict, takes no shit and they adore her. i think a major problem with discipline is that many parents do not want teachers to say their kids have done wrong. think a lot of this is the parents remembering their own school days and not being able to deal with teachers very well, which i can understand.
 
 
Fist Fun
15:55 / 02.01.02
What do 'lithers feel about public schooling? If, for whatever reason, you were entrusted with the education of a child would you be willing to send them to a public school?
 
 
Cat Chant
19:49 / 02.01.02
No. No no no no no. A thousand times no. Except maybe Summerhill.

I went to public school for sixth form. Really all it did was coach us intensively to pass (specific) exams: we weren't 'taught' anything interesting, nor encouraged to think with our brains. And when I went to see Harry Potter at the cinema I had to bite my tongue for two hours so as not to start shouting "Hermione will be self-harming and anorexic within three years if you don't take her out of that vile evil place of evil!"

My school may well have been worse than most, of course.
 
 
Francine I
04:56 / 03.01.02
In the States, what you would call Public school is what we would call Private school; whereas Public school would refer to state-sponsored education.

In that context, then, I am very, very anti-public school. And, for the most part, anti-private. I've experienced both. I was also homeschooled (really, more un-schooled -- no curriculum). I've heard good stories about places like what Deva's mentioning here. Other than that, were I entrusted with the care of a child, I would not force them into public education. If, on the other hand, they became interested in it, I would support them in their endeavours.
 
 
Rose
07:41 / 03.01.02
quote:*Is anyone here homeschooled? What are your feelings on homeschooling or "unschooling" as advocated by Grace Llewellyn?


I was home-schooled until I was fifteen or so. I don’t think that it is a bad idea, per se. However, it just happened that the way things turned out for me that I became a demented socially inept freak, if you will. My parents had good intentions, but my father became very ill and that didn’t really leave time for educating me. Most of what I learned was on my own, as my parents were usually never around. It sure makes a kid become independent. I don’t think I would wish it on someone else, but for me it was just fine. So, just an example of what could happen. On that note, my parents tried to get me back into school, but I got lost somewhere in the system and no longer existed. So, a pox on the Canadian education system –- I did better on my own, you see I hated high school [when I finally went to a public school] and ended up quitting out. I did, however, graduate, so neener neener neener.

Other people I know that were home-schooled had other kids to talk to and play with. They seemed to think homeschooling was just fine, and disliked conventional schooling. However, they are much more socially apt than I, but alas I am working on fixing that. [ahahah I will make them socially inept too!] Anyhow, I hope that was not awfully incoherent.

So yes.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:14 / 03.01.02
Hm. It seems that across the board, the greatest fault of unschooling and public education is that it tends to result in 'socially inept' children... but that seems greatly dependent on the character of the child as much as the circumstances surrounding them.... for example, a lot of the things Llewellyn and Gatto talk about involves the child directly engaging the world on a daily basis, rather than be sequestered with family members every day. They emphasize apprenticeships and volunteer work, for example... I'm wondering, were any of the homeschooled folks here regularly involved with these sort of things?

I don't think that a lack of forced interaction with other children of the same age neccessarily causes those children to become socially inept. Plenty of folks make it all the way from kindergarten through graduation from university and are nevertheless socially inept all the same.
 
 
alas
06:21 / 04.01.02
i'm writing in the language, and with the basic typing skills, I gained from the u.s. state-funded system (til private college, then public grad school). I was, however, raised in a very small, isolated, rural town (my graduating class had 35 people. yes, 35, total, for _the entire town_ including farm kids AND another, smaller neighboring village.)

i'm now, lo these many years later, it turns out, parenting my 2 nieces (long story), who first went to a British comprehensive school (in England) until they were ages 7 & 8, then they came to live with me here in the U.S. (in a large, university-town). Here in the US, they first attended a public (state-funded) elementary school, and _now_ they attend an all-girls fee-based highschool school on scholarships.

Ok--if you follow all that--here's the kicker: my sister-the-fundamentalist-christian is home schooling _her_ 6 (and counting!) children, ages 2-15.

What wisdom do I have?

I don't know, really. (For some reason Wm Carlos Williams keeps running through my head "So much depends on the red wheelbarrow, glazed with rainwater beside the white chickens.")

some random thoughts . . . I think US schools vary TREMENDOUSLY, as do all parents' parenting skills . . . let alone their educating skills. But what does that mean?

Academically, my school was ok--it seemed to teach us all--even those that seemed right dim to me--to read, write, do basic math, and we all got lots of individual attention. But I also felt incredibly cut off from the diversity of the rest of the world. Those 35 kids were all white, most had very little experience or contact with anything outside our immediate area. Most were overtly racist, sexist, heterosexist, xenophobic . . . (a sister in law simply calls the region "a cultural wasteland"; she fled to Germany to live her life, raise her child.)

One specific, general beef: US schools, even private ones, are typically lousy at teaching foreign languages: we still typically just begin learning one new language just at the age when we are losing our ability to acquire new languages--only from about age 12 onwards. Often it gets put off til college, so fluency in another language, even for college graduates in this country, is a joke.

But, as with most school problems, that's as much a problem with US culture as with US schools, reflecting our general cultural arrogance, methinks.


I worry about my sister-the-fundamentalist's kids. But, then, she worries about mine, too.

"My girls" are doing well in their school, and I'm pretty happy with it, although I know that it isn't perfect. I'm glad it is all-girls; I believe it makes a huge difference. Lowers the level of compulsory heterosexuality in the classroom that I remember from my schoolhood.

But I'm not sure I always understand what a "perfect" system would be--nor that I can in any way guess what would be "perfect" even for my own girls, let alone the whole culture. I now live in a little hippie town, and there's a little neighborhood--on a gravel road in the woods--where a group of people are doing what Deva said she'd like: they are collectively rasing their kids outside the school systems. A friend of mine teaches the children Spanish and another friend shares a house with one of the families. It sounds pretty close to perfect for young children especially, and I think they are working towards apprenticeships, volunteer work, and other activities, as the children age.

It's tough to sort all this out. I think communal standards for education are important, and that the common experience of public education has some value that my own children are missing right now, but maybe they've been innoculated by the variety of their educational experiences. I know I would go berserk if I were trying to homeschool my own children, especially if we were basically cut off from the world, locked in some suburban or rural house. Getting hives just thinking about it. But it's very difficult to create, or to enter at a later date, the kind of community that exists in that community down the road from me . . .

i think i've become a little more humble about judging other parents' decisions. a lot of my friends are pretty happy with Montessori schools . . .
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:03 / 04.01.02
quote:Originally posted by Flux = Currently Fabulous:
No! No! Get started!


Okay, you asked for it.

[self-pitying whinge mode]

I was taken out of school just before I turned six. I've never really sussed out why. I think the plan was to send me back in the fullness of time but it just didn't happen. I was pretty happy at school to start with, but at the time I was deschooled I was being picked on rather by a psychotic teacher. My junior siblings never attended school; there are 4 of us, the youngest being 13 years younger than me, the oldest.

The initial plan seemed to be that my Mum would take care of the three R's, and Dad would handle things like science and maths. This foundered, largely because Dad sort of lost interest apart from sporadic periods of intense focus on one subject or another, during which he’d alternately praise my intellectual superiority over other kids and yell at me for being stupid.

Mum found the unsupported role of educator rather a strain. This might have been because she had little secondary education and suffers from (as we later worked out) dyslexia. As Sibs #1 and #2 got older it was becoming clear that they had literacy problems (yet more dyslexia) and my mother was at a loss what to do. Lessons tended to deteriorate into little more than screaming fits... on her part. It got so that each day would begin with a rant on how miserable we were making her, how she hadn’t wanted to get up that morning, how we were never going to amount to anything, how she was going to send us to the local school, except that the local probably wouldn’t take us because we were too stupid, we’d have to go to a special Dimbos Class with all the other dimbos... and so on until she ran out of steam. If it was a really bad day she’d tear up work in front of your face.

The activities I liked best were arts and crafts, which my Mum is very big on. We did quite a lot of “field trips” to castles, museums and stately homes; also a very great deal of nature rambling because Mum liked to walk in the country. (I generally enjoyed this sort of thing, provided we were only accompanied by one parent at a time. Two parents, and the whole trip would deteriorate into a sort of ambulatory squabble.)

When I was eleven I told her I didn’t want to have lessons with her anymore. She was mildly surprised and a little hurt but saw the wisdom of this. I would take my schoolbooks up to my room and study by myself, for the most part unencumbered by parental interference. An education adviser is supposed to visit homeschooled families a couple of times a year but after the age of 11 I never saw one.

We moved house a lot when I was kid and that put a bit of a crimp on my ability to build friendships with children my own age. This was compounded by my parent’s tendency to isolate themselves, and my Mum’s burgeoning paranoia. We were generally regarded with rank distrust when people discovered we didn’t go to school. However, I was a fairly sociable brat, and up until age 12 I took pains to try and mingle with other kids. I got my folks to enroll me in any free after-school type classes that were going; first aid, lifesaving, dancing, drama... I fit in like a fish in a tree but I was so bitterly lonely I wouldn’t give up. (When I was 12 we moved to a village in rural Wales where our social contact consisted of being told to fuck off back to England.)

This happy state of affairs lasted until I was 14 when I decided I wanted to do my GCSEs. I was duly enrolled in evening classes at the local technical college (I say local; in fact it was about an hour’s bus ride away) and proceeded to garner four rather lackluster grades. The following year I went on to do a diploma in electronics at the same establishment.

This was my first experience of full time education and as I possessed all the confidence of a one-legged tightrope walker and the social skills of rock, I didn’t fit in. I got bullied quite badly; the bus ride to Tech became a daily nightmare of fear and humiliation. Nevertheless I stuck it out and scraped through the course. I had planned to go to University but was told that my grades weren’t good enough (I later discovered that this wasn’t strictly true). Instead, I spent the next few years trying to find work.

I remained unemployed until the age of 21.

[/self-pitying whinge mode]
 
 
inteceptor
02:53 / 05.01.02
Fantastic story Mordant! I resented school deeply. I hated it. The fact that I wanted to play elstics & do cartwheels with the girls made me an outcast almost immediatly. in the second year of secondry school some friends were teasing me, i tried to go home, a dinner lady tried to restrain me, and dislocated my collar bone throwing me into a hysteria fit that lasted about 1hr30mins, 8 teachers held me down until a doctor showed and diagnosed my collar bone. I was perpetually on report and the pressure finally got to me. . I ripped up my report form in front of the class not realising my head of house was stood behind me! I was expelled and sent to the reintergration unit. All the other kids there were violent head cases and there was me with my long hair & lashes. .I had to act like a right psycho for 6 months to survive. .the next school I went to was a little more laidback and I managed to get a couple of gcse's. . what a nightmare. . i was never really presented with anything I could use at school but as Mordant has highlighted. .I learn't a lot about peoples
loads of love inteceptor x x
 
 
alas
00:16 / 07.01.02
I was reading a lot of Foucault at some point last year, and I came across a statement that surprised me, one where he explains that he isn't opposed to traditional schooling, really, at all. Yet the bedrock of his philosophy is freedom.

As I understand him, he's arguing in favor of discipline (ascesis)--(q: is discipline abjured in "unschooling"?)--but discipline in the service of pleasure. Discipline requires long-term commitment and deep, body knowledge. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that long-term, demanding commitments, whether to other people or activities, are what are most at risk in consumer culture.

An ethics of love for others combined with a desire to find new and interesting ways of expanding one's capacity for pleasure could create a great school, no?
 
 
Thiassi
22:18 / 07.01.02
I found your link to preservenet and read all of Gatto's available articles there. I thought that what he said about schooling in general makes a lot of sense. However, I also found that we were working on completely different premises, values, and goals. I consider Gatto's distrust of science and progress to be distasteful and foolish. In addition, he constantly touts the benefits of family and community without acknowledging how frequently both of these have failed individuals in the past. His frequent use of Greek philosophy is a bit odd, and seldom seems to lend support to his arguements. Last Gatto's history of education seems to be a bit too X-Files to be considered realistic. However, I'd have to look at this in more depth before disregarding it.

Despite all these problems, Gatto makes a hell of a lot of sense. I've always felt a deep disatisfaction for my public schooling, but was never quite able to put my finger on what was wrong. Gatto filled in every blank, and I think he is completely right about what is wrong with school today. And, even though I find his views on every subject but schooling to be rather obnoxious, I think that I'll be reading quite a few of his books in the future.
 
 
Zebbin
00:46 / 08.01.02
From the Kerry Thornley's introduction to Principia Discordia:

quote: Should you arrive too late, during the first many years of my next lifetime I shall be found in the Simon Bolivar School for Boys of the Discordian Convent of San Medellin, Ciudad de Sandoz, Columbia - where instead of beating pupils for misconduct, the nuns give them blow jobs and then threaten delinquents with a termination of favors. (At least that's what Discordian San Juan Batista, Keeper of the Seven Veils, tells us.)


and imagine what kind of cool stuff they would teach..

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: Zebbin ]
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:19 / 08.01.02
I do love a well-told story. Thanks, Mordant.

I did two years of home schooling when I was 12. It wasn't because my parents didn't want me to go to school. Well, actually, all through my childhood they entertained fantasies of starting an alternative school in our hippie bush community, except it never happened. But we did live too far away for me to go to the local secondary school, which was an hour and a half away. (In Oz we have primary schoo, from age 5-12, and then secondary of high school for the remaining six years, culminating in the VCE, HSC or whatever it's called these days.)

The 'home-schooling' I did was this thing called correspondence, where you were posted books and assignments, and had to send your work in to be marked each week. My dad was at home (my mum was away working for most of this time) but he didn't really help much; they thought I was bright enough to get by on my own. Or maybe I decided I didn't want them interefering and kept it all very private. Anyhow, the first year was okay. Very boring, but then, school is boring. I had a friend who was also doing correspondence, and we would 'study' together a couple of days a week. (Ie we'd listen to 'Summer 1987' over and over, especially Cyndi Lauper's
'True Colours', and do each others' makeup, or alternatively go hang out with the horses.)

The second year she moved away, and basically I spent five days a week reading, living in fantasyland or doing gardening stuff with my Dad. He didn't seem to notice that I was failing almost everything. And at some point I just stopped sending work back, which meant that the superviser rang up and etc etc etc and then my mparents decided I had to go away and board. Which is another story. Suffice to say, I was completely asocial when I got to 'proper' school, and spent about three years attracting trouble for a) being a total nerd b) having no social skills and c) being a smart-arse with teachers, for whom I had no respect.

School is a factory and baby-minding apparatus, as Deva said. I got almost nothing out of most of my classes, except for languages, and found most of it incredibly boring. What I did learn was how to be part of a pack, how to blend in and how to be just slack enough to gain the respect of my peers without losing marks. Which are totally useless skills, nowadays.
 
 
alas
12:47 / 08.01.02
I've been thinking about the Gatto stuff from that link (thanks, btw--I've heard him on Public Radio and quite awhile back read the 6 lesson school teacher, but didn't remember his name), especially this segment:
quote: A few years back one of the schools at Harvard, perhaps the School of Government, issued some advice to its students on
planning a career in the new international economy it believed was arriving. It warned sharply that academic classes and
professional credentials would count for less and less when measured against real world training. Ten qualities were offered as
essential to successfully adapting to the rapidly changing world of work. See how many of those you think are regularly taught
in the schools of your city or state:

1) The ability to define problems without a guide.
2) The ability to ask hard questions which challenge prevailing assumptions.
3) The ability to work in teams without guidance.
4) The ability to work absolutely alone.
5) The ability to persuade others that your course is the right one.
6) The ability to discuss issues and techniques in public with an eye to reaching decisions about policy.
7) The ability to conceptualize and reorganize information into new patterns.
8) The ability to pull what you need quickly from masses of irrelevant data.
9) The ability to think inductively, deductively, and dialectically.
10) The ability to attack problems heuristically.


Two questions:
1) What do you all think about this list--does it resonate with your reality? (I note: "the ability to know rich people who own stuff and who will give you a job when it's time" is conspicuously absent . . .)
2) Do 'lithers feel they gained any of these skills, outside--or inside--school? (By design or, more likely perhaps, by accident?) Where?

[edited to put a damn apostrophe in "it's"]

[ 08-01-2002: Message edited by: alas ]
 
 
bitchiekittie
15:56 / 08.01.02
*What do you think, if any, are the virtues of schools?

in addition to this question Id also like to address the point about kids who dont attend conventional schools as being "socially inept" - I think the main benefit is interaction with a wide variety of people and a much larger scale of social situations. while lack of this wouldnt necessarily cause a child to be a social idiot, I do think that the larger exposure to situations outside the normal realm of their family and immediate social circle makes a more socially deft person. I doubt anyone will argue that while its wonderful to learn from an incredibly gifted teacher, the benefits of practical experience are an immeasurable gift to the education process

*Did you attend a public or private school?

I attended both. in 3rd & 4th, 6th & 7th grades I went to a private, christian school, even attending a catholic school for a semester in 6th (I realized very quickly why people despised nuns). I feel that my education was cheated by the emphasis on religion rather than the subjects that the public school kids in my grades were learning - like languages, algebra, etc. we were on basic, simple crap while everyone else our age was moving on. because of my lack of experience in these subjects, when I arrived back in public school I was placed
in more basic crap. eventually I BSed my way into some honors courses, but I never got the level of education I feel was possible

*Do you feel as though you learned anything from school, or do you feel it was a stifling experience that kept you from studying and learning about your own intellectual interests?

I think my own experience was shit, but it was coupled with a decided lack of confidence, boredom in the classroom, refusal to do anything which required homework or studying of any kind, and utter frustration with my life, which I doubt helped any. I dont know how much of the aforementioned problems affected my education or if indeed they were the result of the education...

it certainly never nurtured in me any interests other than reading

*Is anyone here homeschooled? What are your feelings on homeschooling or "unschooling" as advocated by Grace Llewellyn?

I still have to read more

*If you had a child, would you consider alternative methods of education rather than having the child attend public or private school?

my daughters father and I considered the whole range of possibilities open to us. we were strongly interested in a montessori school (I think a large part of my problem was that I detest rigid structure) but finally decided on public school

so far so good
 
 
Captain Zoom
16:09 / 08.01.02
I've been kicking around the idea of a montessori school for my son, but they're sooo fucking expensive (here anyway). I went to public school and never felt stifled or under-educated. I think this may have had to do with having the right teachers rather than the school system itself. my teachers, for the most part, were excellent. with the current situation in the educational system in Ontario, i'm a little concerned that my son, once he gets to school, won't get the same kind of education i did.

Zoom.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
19:22 / 10.01.02
there's always the Michael Jackson route: build your own school so your kids can be saved from the madness outside the gates of your private world.

my school was a pretty standard comprehensive but I'd far rather have been there, learning how to interact with the world, than still at home.

however,
1. these days I'd have the internet with which to educate myself

2. I went to a Scottish school where you were still streamed according to ability to some extent

3. I was, modesty be damned, a very bright kid and wanted to learn

4. I still took months off in adolescence with feigned illnesses and a colluding Ward Sister for a mother

5. Flux wasn't my Dad
 
 
Little Mother
21:29 / 13.01.02
I think the problem may be that there are children who thrive in most of the school systems on offer an those who don't. There are plenty of people out there who genuinely don't want to engage with anything much outside their own little world and don't really think about that to hard. In most cases the kids (like many of the people here) will find their own ways of learning what they need to learn. Perhaps the best we can do is try and find a system that can teach each child basic academic skills and information to the best of their ability and perhaps provide a start for those who need more. Huge amounts can be achieved with such simple things as teachers listening properly to the pupils and giving encouragement where needed. I thought I was going mad in A'level (16-18) eng lit 'cos everyone, including the lecturers seemed to prefer the simplistic to the point of not being very good 'six women poets' and hate Emily Dickinson. It wasn't until one of the lecturers came up to me on a trip and asked me what I thought of it that I found out it wasn't just me and she'd been thinking almost exactly the same thingt too.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:49 / 14.01.02
There's a lot of important points to bear in mind here. Despite my own experience of home education having been pretty fraught and having had some negative outcomes, I certainly wouldn’t dismiss the idea out of hand. For one thing, I know many people who have been failed in some way by the education system. Stories like sfd’s (among others) highlight the distressingly prevalent problem of bullying.

Whether physical or emotional, regardless of the level of violence threatened or perpetrated, bullying is a wonderfully effective way to destroy both the educational and social aspects of a person’s school life, not to mention laying waste to a young person’s self esteem. Best of all it’s a gift that keeps on giving, as survivors of bullying often go on to end up in similar relationships later in life; the dictatorial housemate, the abusive partner, the tyrannical boss may all owe some of their power to that school bully. I’ve met pensioners who still shake when they talk about bullying experiences from their schooldays. And what about the bully? Do they go on to form happy and satisfactory relationships? Do they function well in the world at large, having garnered their knowledge of social interactions from such a toxic process? Go on. Take a wild guess. And so often this all takes place with the actual or tacit approval of the very people who are meant to prevent it. Brilliant! Just brilliant.

(I can’t help thinking at this point of all the young people over the years who haven’t survived this; who’ve lost their lives either to suicide or to murder. I can’t help believing that somebody, somewhere, could have stepped in before that stage was reached. Maybe a lot of somebodies.)

Besides bullying, there are other dramatic educational failures. These might manifest as a lack of opportunity or encouragement in pursuing certain areas of study- art, for instance, or “difficult” subjects like maths or the sciences. Often, however, the damage is much more serious. I have met at least two people personally who came out of school at 16 unable to read. One of these was dyslexic, which would be a bad enough reason for the school’s failure to teach him the most basic literacy skills; but the other was suffering from extreme myopia which his school failed, in all those years, to spot. He went through school being branded as difficult or stupid, when all he needed was a pair of glasses. This sort of thing makes my blood boil.

In the face of all this, I can’t condemn those parents who choose to take their children out of school. But I have to point out that a dire school environment is only one of the reasons that people home educate. Some parents have other, less worthy motivations than “Look, the school was a demilitarized zone, the teachers were all on Valium, and I’m sick of hiding the paracetamol and razor blades, okay?”

As a home-ed brat I had contact with a lot of adults who’d taken their kids out of school; I also read the Education Otherwise newsletter every month. Believe me, for every mother who’d yanked her child out of a pit of pain and terror, there seemed to be at least ten individuals whose reasons for homeschooling boiled down to one of the following:

1) I didn’t want Noah/Bethany learning any of that blasphemous Darwin nonsense. (Not terribly common but turned up with depressingly regularity.)


2)I didn’t want Dandelion/Gwynhwyvar learning swear-words. (Very common.)

3) I have a third in one of the less demanding Humanities subjects, I got pregnant before I finished my postgrad, and since I am too achingly narrow-minded to appreciate any achievement except academic achievement the only way I can validate myself is by dragging Dandelion/Gwynhwyvar kicking and screaming through a maths A-Level before they are out of nappies. (Hoo, boy.)

99.9% of all the home-ed parents I met seemed to be Category 3's: people who bought three-dimensional chess sets for their seven year olds. People whose kids always turned up in the E.O. contact list flagged as “gifted”. People who wouldn’t have any toys in the house unless they were “educational”; this usually translated into a 3D chess set, a busted up 7X spectrum and a variety of brick-thick wooden items from the Early Learning Centre (which the bitterly frustrated Dandelion/Gwynhwyvar would attempt to bury into one of the Junior Sib’s skulls as soon as nobody was watching).

My feeling is that parents who home educate should be given both more supervision and more support. As I mentioned in a previous post, an education advisor is supposed to visit the family a few times a year to make sure that all is running smoothly and the sprog is indeed drinking at the font of knowledge and not being sent up chimneys or sacrificed to Cthulhu. This is largely bollocks- the education advisor is basically uninterested in what you’re doing or not doing, they just want that kid back in school ASAP. Kid doing poorly in a subject? Obviously you, the parent, are failing them. Kid doing well in art? Criticize their maths. Kid doing well in maths? Criticize their English. Kid doing well in everything? Obviously you, the parent, are fortunate enough to have a gifted child- by keeping them away from school you are depriving them of the opportunity to realize their full potential, you Bad Parent, you. Whatever the situation there’s just that blank, blanket answer to everything: Send them back to school. Toe the line, and maybe we won’t take you to court (or just come round in the middle of the night and whip your child into care).

No advice, then. No support. Nothing. (Worse than nothing, in fact: a wholly negative presence in your life and your child’s, a real live bogeyman who can stroll into your house and turn your world upside down).

No advice on how to encourage your child in the things they’re good at. No advice on how to overcome a child’s difficulty with a subject. No help in getting your child assessed for dyslexia, or other problems. No respite care for a parent devoting hirself 24/7 to hir kids. No respite for the kid shut up 24/7 with a stressed-out, frightened and frustrated Mum or Dad. No advice for a parent concerned about a child’s lack of socialization. No support for the single parent who home educates. No advice on how your child can take hir exams outside the school system. Too expensive? A waste of resources? Bullshit. What about all the money that the State saves when a kid is taught at home for most or all of their lives? Don’t tell me that just a little of that dough couldn’t be ploughed back into helping that child, that family.

You know what? The system should encourage home-ed, not try to blackmail parents into shoving their kids into school. We’re always being told how schools are overcrowded, underfunded, and generally fucked up- how about looking at ways to get more people into home educating their kids? How about looking at ways in which the problems that I’ve mentioned with home education- the lack of resources, the isolation of children and parents, the sometimes narrow-minded, confused or otherwise unrealistic expectations- could be resolved?

How about a revolution in the playground?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:55 / 14.01.02
How about I tidy that last post up a bit, take out a few swearwords, and call it an article- any takers?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
06:56 / 15.01.02
Great idea!
 
 
ephemerat
07:45 / 15.01.02
Fuck, yes.

Wonderful piece.
 
 
Thiassi
18:23 / 16.01.02
Yes.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
18:30 / 16.01.02
Okay, moving this conversation back to education and away from 'yeah, dude. yes. totally'....

What do you think is the best way to educate those students who are not especially bright or motivated? Do you think there is a way to motivate people who are otherwise quite lazy and uninspired, or is institutions of structure, order, and mindlessness the only real way of dealing with these people?

If you read the Gatto books, he tends to leave these people out of the equation, he tends to ignore the legions of people who would just watch trash tv and play video games all day if school was taken away from them... What can be done for those who for one reason or another shun any form of education?
 
 
bitchiekittie
18:43 / 16.01.02
there are ways to teach just about anything to just about anyone - the trick is being innovative enough to come up with the right formula. unfortunately, I dont think the average shmo is capable of that
 
 
Vadrice
22:52 / 16.01.02
montesori ruled out when I was little, according to my mother. I don't remember it personally.

I left High School to escape the dealers with their clutches around my soul.
I was suppose to be learning from my father, and I suppose I learned a little... and my mother helped me with my writing some, but for the most part they slacked off and I stole their booze.

It takes a strange parent to make a good educator for their children. Strange in a different way than my 'rents, that is.

College, on the other hand, is a different story. College is the first place I've actually been usefully educated.

Public school blew, and turned me to my disreputable ways. Home school was cool, but I didn't learn much.
 
  

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