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Misogyny, breast size and the Barbie PC - Gender and Computer Gaming

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
23:19 / 18.11.01
Just started "From Barbie to Mortal Kombat" (eds. Cassell and Jenkins), a collection of essays and interviews on the interaction of young women and computer games. Thought it might be useful (although a shocking abuse of the Head Shop's stated aims) to harvest some thoughts on this and related topics.

So, do you play computer games? Why? And how? Does your gender, in your opinion, affect how you relate to computer gaming? Do you feel like a "target audience" for games or not?

Perhaps most of all, what do you think are the qualities you and others look for in computer games? Is there a need to make "girl-friendly" computer games, and if so how does one go about it.

Suggested "kick-off" reading here, here and here. Also of interest is Jenkins' postscript discussing the Sims.

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: The Haus of Penitents ]

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: The Haus of Penitents ]

[ 21-11-2001: Message edited by: The Haus of I.Ds ]
 
 
The Damned Yankee
00:30 / 19.11.01
As I've mentioned elsewhere, my hobby is to create skins for the Sims based upon my favorite comic book characters.

Of late, though, my attention has been drawn away by a new game, scheduled to be released early next year, called Freedom Force. Thematically, it's based upon Silver Age Marvel Comics (it's not a Marvel licensee, but it has that certain tone to it: Kirby-esque art styles and that sort of thing). The makers, an Australian firm called Irrational Games, courted the mod community in the hopes of creating the same kind of support that has marked games like The Sims and Unreal Tournament in terms of user-created characters.

(Don't worry, I promise that this is going somewhere)

Well, Irrational uses 3D Studio Max to create the meshes for the game, and since 3DS Max costs upwards of US$3000, most of us are dependent upon the meshes that Irrational programmers create in their very scarce spare time (FF just entered beta, so they're really busy now). Of the twelve meshes that have been released for the free character editing program, only two are female, and the second one . . . um, is quite, uh, bouncy in the chest area , if ya catch my meaning.

I'm not going to pretend that I haven't considered working with this mesh (Angela from Codename: Knockout seems like a viable candidate for this one), but it does seem to illustrate how female-unfriendly the gaming scene can be.

That and that idiotic ad for Dead or Alive 3 featuring the two Lifetime Virgin Geeks and numerous shots of cyberpanties.
 
 
The Damned Yankee
01:01 / 19.11.01
I feel compelled to add, in Freedom Force's defense, that the male body types are just as ridiculously unattainable as the female (check out the pecs and abs on Superman and you'll get the idea).
 
 
Sax
07:16 / 19.11.01
Except a well-greased riding crop.
 
 
Sax
07:26 / 19.11.01
Sorry SFD. It was meant to be a joke - albeit an unfunny, misjudged and not very well thought out one. And I couldn't find the smiley that indicated "no brained twattishness".
Forgiven? And I'll contribute something proper to the thread in a minute when my boss has gone.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
07:29 / 19.11.01
sax - ok! use your smilies fer god's sake! was almost on my way oop north to kick your arse!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:29 / 19.11.01
quote:Originally posted by The Damned Yankee:
I'm not going to pretend that I haven't considered working with this mesh (Angela from Codename: Knockout seems like a viable candidate for this one), but it does seem to illustrate how female-unfriendly the gaming scene can be.


Another interesting test may be how the female characters die. There seems to be a tendency (and I am working fro other people's research here) for female characters to register pain and death through quasi-orgasmic sighs rather than full-blooded grunts.
 
 
Bear
07:29 / 19.11.01
Well Lara Croft for one sounds like she's enjoying dying a little much, Meryl from MSG aswell (and dont forget the little bit where you can spy on her in her pants)..

The girl is Golden Axe didn't take any crap though...
 
 
mondo a-go-go
10:16 / 19.11.01
quote:Originally posted by shortfatdyke:
was almost on my way oop north to kick your arse!


as opposed to shoving a well-greased riding crop up it?

i play computer games sometimes. i'm pretty crap at them, and tend to prefer playing them at someone's house because arcades are too creepy -- which is why i'm pretty crap at them, not having much of a chance to get the practice in. so, as far as environment is concerned, no, i don't feel like the target audience and never have done.

as far as playstation games are concerned (which are the ones i'm most familiar with), i'm not really interested in shoot-em-ups because i'm too piss-poor at them and i get too easily frustrated. i like some fighting games, although i'm more likely to pick someone because of their fighting style than because of their gender, though i like some of the female characters, and it's cool to see string women. having said that, their grunts do tend to sound slightly more sexual than would be the case in real life.

i've noticed how intimidated some women are even about messing around on the playstation at home. when i was with my ex, i was the only girl who would play on the games, just as i was the only girl to join in the conversations about music and films and websites... even when i would suggest that we play against each other when the boys weren't watching (in case they took the piss), so that we could practice, the girls would still shy away from the concept.

but i think it's already been rather well-established that i was most definitely the minority freak when it came to that particlar crowd, so perhaps you shouldn't take my comments as speaking for the general female population...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
10:55 / 19.11.01
The only types of games I truly enjoy playing anymore are simulations, like Sims, Civilization, and Rollercoaster Tycoon. I haven't played a fighting game or a shooting game in years, and I haven't owned a console since Super Nintendo.

I think what attracts me to Civilization, the Sims, et al, is the same thing that attracted me to erector sets (...) and Legos as a child. Sim games are by nature open-ended and more creative than other types of games. There are no boundaries to the types of situations you can create in the Sims (and even though I lost most of my interest in playing that game after the first expansion pack came out, I was in a software store thsi weekend and I was drooling over the "Hot Date" and "House Party" expansion sets.).

As far as gender and gaming goes, from my admittedly small experience with fighting games, I tend to agree with whoever said that the female characters tend to die with a quasi-orgasmic shriek. Rather disturbing. There's also a brand-new commercial out for a fighting game for X-box where two fatbeard types try to justify their use of female characters while the screen shows us crotch shots of pixilated femmes bodyslamming each other.

(oh, and Haus, your first and last links are broken above.)

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: Clever Clogs Todd ]
 
 
Ariadne
12:55 / 19.11.01
It must make the marketers despair (not that I'm exactly the target market) but I wouldn't play girl-friendly things precisely because they've been made girl-friendly. But then I don't play other games because they seem too violent or competitive (I can't really bring myself to care enough about winning to put the effort in and learn to do it right). So I don't play computer games at all.
I've read about Myst and the Sims and they sound interesting, but the fact I'm meant to be interested because I'm a woman puts me off.

(I should clarify the above - I don't mean that I try to be 'one of the boys' or dismiss the fact I'm female in my reactions to things. What I do mean is that I dislike things that have been specifically targetted as 'for women' because what that tends to mean in practice is 'dumbed down and softened'. Which pisses me off, so I avoid it)

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: Ariadne ]
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:55 / 19.11.01
Oooh, i should mention my brief infatuation last year with Sissyfight, an awesome webgame (which I'm not sure exists anymore) that attracted a great deal of female players. It was basically a souped up version of rock paper scissors with elements of the "Prisoner's Dilemna" that appealed to my sense of strategy as well as my desire to talk trash while in the guise of a schoolgirl.

What caused me to stop playing this simple, marvelous game was (a) The increasing amount of stupid people who started playing and ruining the game through cheating (b) the fact that I could never move up in the rankings as quick as possible ( I think I peaked at like #200) because of the colossal amount of time people played the game.

Which brings me to another problem I have with current games: They are way too fucking long for an adult with any semblance of a life to enjoy properly. In order to complete most games you have to budget tons of hours of time (usually in long stretches, too). I hate doing something without completing it, and so I no longer buy longer games (RPG's, which hold some attraction for me) which would take to long. At least with a Sim, even if you don't get to the "end", it is still worth playing as the "end" is not as crucial to enjoying the game.

Thanks for fixing the links, Haus. i will read and comment.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
13:06 / 19.11.01
i've just been reminded of an episode of the simpsons where bart is playing a game called 'cat fight'. two women throw insults in horrible robotic voices "you. slut" "you. bitch" then they scrap. actually had me on the floor laughing. but i wonder if there's a game like this for real?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:19 / 19.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Ariadne:
It must make the marketers despair (not that I'm exactly the target market) but I wouldn't play girl-friendly things precisely because they've been made girl-friendly. But then I don't play other games because they seem too violent or competitive (I can't really bring myself to care enough about winning to put the effort in and learn to do it right). So I don't play computer games at all.


Actually, certainly in the second aprt, you are pretty much standard - the research seems to show that women are simply not as bothered about winning computer games (see Todd and his desire for "completion" above -what about a game like Championship Manager, which is theoretically entirely open-ended).

Next question is, why should "girl-friendly" mean "of poor quality"? For the same reason that, back in the good old days, "woman" meant "weaker and less intelligent than man"? Research suggests that, assigned to develop games ideas specifically for boys and girls, programmers come up with two different styles of game. Asked to generate computer games for no determined audience, they came up with the same styles as the ones designed specifically for boys.
 
 
Ariadne
13:25 / 19.11.01
Well of course it shouldn't mean 'of poor quality' - but it usually does. Presumably because they're working from the traditional games and then trying to alter them to suit a different user. Like when Palm brought out a pretty, colourful and easy-to-use PDA and announced it 'would suit women'. They changed that angle pretty fast when they saw the reactions.

Maybe I should investigate Myst or the Sims, because they sound as though they started from a different angle.

I should, but I probably won't, mind you. Too lazy.

(Edited to make more sense)

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: Ariadne ]
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:36 / 19.11.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Penitents:

Next question is, why should "girl-friendly" mean "of poor quality"? For the same reason that, back in the good old days, "woman" meant "weaker and less intelligent than man"?


See also countless C18 books called 'Newtonianism for the Ladies, explain'd'.

I suspect that relatively few game designers (pace ExistenZ) are female, so we're starting from a position in which something which is nominally 'non-gendered' (as you pointed out, Haus) is actually biased towards the male; hence a version for girls might be produced from a skewed position on what girls like, and thus we get watered down versions of games. Which means that the 'female games' market is going to be separate from the 'games' market and marginalised, which means that it will attract less money and interest... and so on.

This is exactly what you have both just said, isn't it? I shall shut up.

I used to prefer soporific hand-eye co-ordination games like Crystal Hammer.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
13:41 / 19.11.01
well, really, the reason i'm so piss-poor at shoot-em-ups and racing games is because i didn't spend all my pocketmoney down the arcades when i was younger.

i'm also not really all that competitive about computer games, i like the sense of achievment of completing a level, but not necessarily against someone else. the games i enjoy most are usually provide a challenge, but not one that's so hard to beat that i end up having to spend 3 days trying to finish one level. that just gets boring.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:51 / 19.11.01
For what it's worth, I should point out that the "girls" and "boys" talked about in the articles are significantly younger than the average age of a Barbeloid.


From Haus's link:

quote:Brenda Laurel's Boy Game v. Girl Game dialectic:

GIRLS -- Leading characters are everyday people that girls can easily relate to, and are as real to girls as their best friends.

BOYS -- Leading characters are fantasy-based action heroes with "super power" abilities."


Is this true? Obviously, boys want more and more special maneuvers and "power-ups" in their games. There can never be too many "big fucking guns" or hidden special Tony Hawk tricks for the boy crowd.

But do girls want "normal people" as protagonists? Maybe because I am a boy, I don't see the attraction. Every protagonist has to have SOME special characteristic, something that separates them from the herd, so to speak, in order to be interesting. What about games where there is no protagonist besides the player (driving games, building games, sports games, where you don't assume a role so much)


quote:GIRLS -- Play focuses on multi-sensory immersion, discovery, and strong story lines.

BOYS -- Speed and action are key.


The decription of the "girl game" above describes RPGs to a "T". RPGs are notoriously boy-centric. How come more young girls aren't into D&D if this is what they really want?

quote:GIRLS -- Feature everyday 'real life' settings as well as new places to explore.

BOYS -- features non-realistic, larger-than-life settings.


Again, why the assumption that girls want things that are more mundane and prosaic than boys? Is the audience for "Harry Potter" divided evenly among the sexes or is it more boy-oriented? This sounds suspiciously like an argument for "women's fiction" to me.

quote: GIRLS -- Success comes through development of friendships.

BOYS -- Success comes through the elimination of competitors.


It seems that with the games I enjoy most, Success comes from cultivation of friendships (the SIMS can only advance in careers if they have more friends, Civilizations align themselves to progress quicker through the game). But I also enjoy crushing competition.

Isn't the concept of a "game" intrinsically tied to competition? Are there any children's games (in real life)where everyone wins and no one loses? Do kids of either sex enjoy those games?

The characterization of girl's games above is disheartening because to me it shows that marketers think (a) girls lack imagination as compared to boys (b) Girls are afraid of competition and don't like winning/losing. Neither of these characteristics is in my view desirable and shouldn't be reinforced through the design of playthings.
 
 
Bear
13:55 / 19.11.01
What about Final Fantacy - I don't think it falls into either male or female category and they sell by the bucket load and are very good...guess its because they have everything, good storylines, fighting, romance... or maybe I'm wrong but I know alot of girls like them....
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:55 / 19.11.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Penitents:


Actually, certainly in the second aprt, you are pretty much standard - the research seems to show that women are simply not as bothered about winning computer games (see Todd and his desire for "completion" above -what about a game like Championship Manager, which is theoretically entirely open-ended).


My desire for "completion" is my own private business and shan't be discussed here!



(though I remember being endlessly frustrated by "Spy Hunter" on the NES. All the delicious frission of letting out oil slicks and shooting missiles but no possibility for culmination. The only way the game ended is in one's own death, though not the petit morte one desired. Heh.)

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: Clever Clogs Todd ]
 
 
Bear
13:58 / 19.11.01
I had a friend who wouldnt sleep when a new Dizzy game came out until he completed it...
 
 
Ariadne
14:03 / 19.11.01
I think marketers' lack of understanding arises, yet again, from thinking 'well boys like this, so how to we change it to suit girls?'. And then they think they have to make it simpler or prettier.

Young girls can be ferociously competitive - i know I was, but in academic areas, where I had some chance, as opposed to sports, where I was crap. Other girls were competitive in sport or clothes or in friendships or even skipping (which sounds stupid but if you were crap at skipping then you'd know all about it).

Anyway, so there's loads of areas where you could catch girls' imaginations and get them to want to play - it just takes a whole different mindset.

To take an example from current children's fiction, I would have adored Lara in the Philip Pulman books when I was young, and I'm sure you could build a game around that sort of character - where she has to be clever and smart and outwit opponents. There'd be a whole fantasy world involved there and it could make a great game, I'd imagine.

I'm not sure how you get that fact over to the people designing the games, though, other than hope that they finally catch on when all their stupid efforts fail.

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: Ariadne ]
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:06 / 19.11.01
"Afraid of competition"?

Or just not interested in killing endless lovingly-intestined representatives of evil?

Which is one reason why I find "Half Life" quite interesting - there is a "realistic" world in the sense that the other entities interact with each other, and that certainly one set of "bad guys" - the special ops people - are sufficiently ambiguous to be heroes in the next expansion pack. With a bit more sophistication, one could "team" and communicate with one group - aliens or special ops people - and communicate with them, give and receive orders etc.

Alternatively, take a look at "Fallout", where large and at least partly non-linear areas exist, peopled with individuals with whom one can interact in various different ways, in a reasonably complex fashion. For example, one fo the interesting things I noticed in the fallout games was that you could play a queer character - the possibility existed for same-gender sexual interaction, although the avenues were limited compared to heterosexual characters. That was a new one on me.

As for "normal people" - why should one *need* to be "extraordinary" in the obvious sense? If yiu are, for example, playing a schoolboy or girl trying to find the ideal girlfriend or boyfriend (a not unfeasible scenario, and one which occurs in Japanese games), the ability to shoot webs out of your arse is surely going to be a *demerit*. The "supernormality" is created by being able to interact in an environment which has you as its narrative focus, but where mistakes are not permanent.

Take the Sims. Jenkins says that it is used by people to model how they might get on with potential flatmates, or to work thorugh the consequences of divorce. Both of which struck me as wacky notions, except...

Well, except. Except that I know people who set up Sim households using Blakes 7 characters to see how they work out, or in one extreme case had Optimus Prime and Megatron sharing a flat. In one case I read a piece of slash fiction based on the premise that Avon set up a Sims-style behaviour modeller which showed him the necessity of him shacking up with Blake. THe interest here is not in the abnormality of the characters, but their normality even The Damned Yankee's superhero Sims presumably have to interact using the rules of the game, and thus do not fight evil but instead make tea and shower.

Hein?
 
 
Ariadne
14:09 / 19.11.01
Actually, could someone out there please make the Dark Materials game asap? Because I really want to play it now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:14 / 19.11.01
On RPGs - I agree, and have, for example, met at least one woman who was a fierce fan of Westwood's Blade Runner (note - an immersive, highly involved world, albeit with a linear if multi-branching storyline, lots of expressions of the internal narratives of the central character, who is an ordinary person trying to do their job. Hmmm). Likewise, the Fallout game struck me as unusually interactive and involved. However, it also contained a lot of nudgety-nudgety adolescent boy humour and attitudes to sex and sexuality which presumably turn off girls just as the fat, milk-stinking mutants who populate the world of over-the-table RPGs do.

What? I'm joking.

Perhaps more relevantly, although conversation and interaction and the use of a wide variety of different approaches to problems *can* be used in Fallout, you'll end up reasonably frequently in situations where violence is necessary. So, sensible players who want to progress will pretty much inevitably end up concentrating on fighting skills, and work up from there.

Which brings us back to direct competition and "super-hero" characters.

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: The Haus of Penitents ]
 
 
Ethan Hawke
14:33 / 19.11.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Penitents:
[QB][quote]"Afraid of competition"?

Or just not interested in killing endless lovingly-intestined representatives of evil?


see, the sense I got from the article was that marketers/creators of the games see girls as shying away from competion as compared to boys. Yes, some of it might have to do with not finding killing aliens intriguing. (though my girlfriend was a "Contra" fiend in her school years. go figure) But girls are also less likely to play sports games, which involve cooperation (with either AI or 'real' teammates), are more or less open-ended (if you play a "season" as opposed to a single match), and involve "realistic" (albeit at the upper end of the physical fitness meter) protagonists. Is there a "WNBA" game or woman's college basketball game?
quote:
For example, one fo the interesting things I noticed in the fallout games was that you could play a queer character - the possibility existed for same-gender sexual interaction, although the avenues were limited compared to heterosexual characters. That was a new one on me.

I'm not familiar at all with this game, but in the Sims you can have same sex lovers who adopt babies.
quote:
As for "normal people" - why should one *need* to be "extraordinary" in the obvious sense? If yiu are, for example, playing a schoolboy or girl trying to find the ideal girlfriend or boyfriend (a not unfeasible scenario, and one which occurs in Japanese games), the ability to shoot webs out of your arse is surely going to be a *demerit*. The "supernormality" is created by being able to interact in an environment which has you as its narrative focus, but where mistakes are not permanent.


I think more of what bothered me was the assumption that girls didn't have any interest in playing "extraordinary" characters.
quote:
Take the Sims. Jenkins says that it is used by people to model how they might get on with potential flatmates, or to work thorugh the consequences of divorce. Both of which struck me as wacky notions, except...

It struck me as very wacky too, as in order to do that you'd have to tailor the Sim's attrributes (energy, tidiness, socialability, etc.) to what you think your friends/relatives are like, creating a completely skewed universe that would be no less arbitrary than any other model you could create, and most likely a bit more perverse.

quote: THe interest here is not in the abnormality of the characters, but their normality even The Damned Yankee's superhero Sims presumably have to interact using the rules of the game, and thus do not fight evil but instead make tea and shower.

I had a desire to make a house full of dictators (stalin, hitler, saddam hussein, and serial killer Jeffery Dahmer thrown is as a wildcard, though I lost interest in making the skins). The idea was that it would be absurd, abnormal to see these people doing 'normal' things, thus still concentrating on the "specialness" of the protagonists. But that's just me.
 
 
Ganesh
15:30 / 19.11.01
Ah, computer games...

I've always been aware that my own interface with computer games has been oddly specific. When Kooky describes the girls who "shied away" from engaging with the Sega MegaDrive (or whatever) that strikes a real chord with me. Even as far back as the first PacMan, Asteroids upright arcade games, I had little or no interest. When the early 48K Spectrums came out, I'd happily sit and watch my friends play 'Manic Miner', 'Jetset Willy', etc. but didn't actually want to play the things myself. When the two-player fighting ninja-ey things arrived, I used to hang around with a friend who was absolutely obsessed with 'em. If pressed, I'd take part in the two-player version but, Dear Reader, it really did nothing for me. [insert 'joystick' witticism here]

I really don't know why. Maybe it's a poof thing.

On the other hand, I used to love the pure text adventure games, the ones where you'd type in 'ATTACK ELROND WITH LUNCH', 'OPEN COFFIN' and so on. Spent hours on those - and I know they bored the tits off most of my friends. As graphics got better and better, the pure text adventure sort of died out. Luckily, you can download Spectrum Emulator and play 'em on that...

These days? The vast majority of computer games leave me absolutely cold - even so-called RPGS. Having said which, I was given 'The Sims' by a particularly perceptive friend and spent nigh on eight hours solid advancing 'Dick Rimmer' through the ranks of his army career (and marvelling at the fact that, while gay characters are a no-no, handlebar moustaches and leather chaps are apparently quite acceptable). If I'd had a home catheter set, even toilet visits could've been eliminated...

My nieces have both been computer-literate from an early age; they're now seven and ten (um, I think). They both quite like computer chess but otherwise just don't seem that interested. They were both very into a (rather fabulous) Sesame Street-esque children's game - a sort of animated version of my old favourite Spectrum adventures - called 'Freddie the Fish'.

So... I'm not sure what conclusions, if any, can be drawn from my own experiences. Is it a straight boy thang?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
15:35 / 19.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Ganesh:

These days? The vast majority of computer games leave me absolutely cold - even so-called RPGS. Having said which, I was given 'The Sims' by a particularly perceptive friend and spent nigh on eight hours solid advancing 'Dick Rimmer' through the ranks of his army career (and marvelling at the fact that, while gay characters are a no-no, handlebar moustaches and leather chaps are apparently quite acceptable). If I'd had a home catheter set, even toilet visits could've been eliminated...


You never got males Sims to make out with each other? You're missing out. In the first, Sims expansion set, amorous couples can "play" in bed together. I don't recall if this works for same-sex couples or not. They probably find the heart shaped vibrating bed cheesy.
 
 
Ganesh
15:46 / 19.11.01
Didn't get the 'expansion set'. 'Dick Rimmer' had to content himself with striding around manfully in his leather chaps, working out regularly on his narcissistically-exhaustive home multi-gym and trying to give 'back rubs' to male neighbours - which went down like a lead balloon and, repeated too frequently, resulted in a slap.

"It's a lot like life..."
 
 
Ganesh
15:47 / 19.11.01
NB Actually, it was 'Butch Rimmer'. Just so's you know.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:45 / 19.11.01
To develop the question "why would anyone want to be an ordinary person", I'd like to quote from Brenda Laurel:

"The premise of Rockett's New School, the first title in the series, is that you're a brand-new kid in eighth grade, you don't know anybody, clean slate, and you have to navigate your way to the end of the day. It's just that. And then there'll be another day and another, and when you get tired of looking at the action, you can go behind the action. You can see what Rockett's written in her journal and what pictures she has taken, and depending on who showed up in the scene you can visit other characters' lockers and see what's in there and discover things about them..."

Which sounds utterly fascinating.

Couple of thoughts on applying some of the same theses.

I believed there is, or soon will be, a Buffy the Vampire Slayer game. I imagine it will be like Tomb Raider or Half-Life or Quake - you control Buffy, and kill vampires, solve problems to progress. ON occasion, you may have the option of bringing along friends, who will be able to help you, by fighting on your side, casting spells, giving you information about occult mysteries and so on.

But what if at one point your spellcasting buddy refuses to come along, because you have only been calling her up when you need heavy spell support? And she's been breaking up with her boyfriend and you have barely given her a kind word? Or you have to decide whether the ancient evil can wait a night while you cram for a test, with each decision having consequences? In effect, if you were forced to stop thinking of the Buffy on the screen as an instrument for killing and look at her instead as an individual with a complex network of friendships and emnities, social, academic and personal demands, and the need to succeed not just as a slayer, but as a character.

Ironically, Ganesh's ruminations on text adventures reminded me of "The Secret Diary of Adrian Mole", an old Spectrum game where you were given a passage of text, then a choice of 3 possible options, over and over again, developing a narrative over the course of a year of game time. The decisions made affected the (basically linear) narrative, and gave you points, by which you could judge how you were developing as a human being. ON a very basic level, that could be in some ways informative, but, with more than 48k to play with, broadening the options vastly and taking the linearity out of the game.

Who would such a game appeal to? What would be your idea of a game you or your sister/girlfriend/daughter/only female friend whom you have fancied for five years but never plucked up the courage to tell would want to play? What would it involve? Or are attempts to target computer games at women doomed to fail because women have better things to do?
 
 
Ganesh
17:53 / 19.11.01
Are we nearing 'Geordie wanking in the HoloDeck' territory here?

I remember 'Adrian Mole' - and the sequel! Wasn't too fond of them as I recall, but then I was a bit of a purist.

Playing 'ordinary people': isn't that irrestistable urge somewhat akin to whatever made thousands (millions?) of people tune in to E4 for hours on end this summer, in order to watch Big Brother contestants pick their noses? The attraction of the mundane?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
18:07 / 19.11.01
quote:Originally posted by The Haus of Penitents:
[QB]To develop the question "why would anyone want to be an ordinary person", I'd like to quote from Brenda Laurel:

"The premise of Rockett's New School, the first title in the series, is that you're a brand-new kid in eighth grade, you don't know anybody, clean slate, and you have to navigate your way to the end of the day. It's just that. And then there'll be another day and another, and when you get tired of looking at the action, you can go behind the action. You can see what Rockett's written in her journal and what pictures she has taken, and depending on who showed up in the scene you can visit other characters' lockers and see what's in there and discover things about them..."

Which sounds utterly fascinating.


Sounds utterly horrifying to me. The last thing I'd want to do is realistically pretend I'm in high school again (unless it has something to do with Scarlett Johansson's school skirt )

Kidding aside, aren't video games an escapist medium? Isn't the point of 'virtual realities' that they aren't real and afford you options you don't/can't have in real life? Video games are escapist entertainment. At their best they are fully engrossing, captivating ones senses and drowning out the real world. Thus the collapsing of time that occurs when one is trying to complete a level or find a clue or raising enough money to buy that hot tub.

The game described above replicates a truly intimidating and horrifying experience that few who have gone through it would want to re-experience it.

It also reminds me of the episode of the Simpsons where Bart wants to go on the "lawn work" simulator at the County Fair after blowing off his similar chores.

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I believed there is, or soon will be, a Buffy the Vampire Slayer game. I imagine it will be like Tomb Raider or Half-Life or Quake - you control Buffy, and kill vampires, solve problems to progress. ON occasion, you may have the option of bringing along friends, who will be able to help you, by fighting on your side, casting spells, giving you information about occult mysteries and so on.

But what if at one point your spellcasting buddy refuses to come along, because you have only been calling her up when you need heavy spell support? And she's been breaking up with her boyfriend and you have barely given her a kind word? Or you have to decide whether the ancient evil can wait a night while you cram for a test, with each decision having consequences? In effect, if you were forced to stop thinking of the Buffy on the screen as an instrument for killing and look at her instead as an individual with a complex network of friendships and emnities, social, academic and personal demands, and the need to succeed not just as a slayer, but as a character.


Aren't there already RPGs that function like this in a rudimentary fashion, where if you are nice to people they help you and if you are shitty to them they're shitty to you? Anyone? Bueller?
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Or are attempts to target computer games at women doomed to fail because women have better things to do?


I don't know. And instead of women, let's just talk about girls, ages 12-18 say. The contemporaries of the boys who play tekken or whatever. Do they have "better" thing to do than the boys? or just different things that are equally as useless?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:13 / 19.11.01
Key word: "Rudimentary". See Stephen Poole, "Trigger Happy" on the way that, in "Outcast", if you kill innocent people, you can "work off" the bad will by tilling some fields.

Plus, you're still looking at these people as a means - treat them well, they will help you to achieve a further goal or defeat a further opponent - rather than as independent ends in themselves. Being a good friend, by that paradigm, would be a skill required in order to get assistance and win the game - to be a successful player. Conversely, I am talking about being a good friend being an objective running parallel to other objectives the accomplishment of which would collectively make you a good player.

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: The Haus of Penitents ]
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:23 / 19.11.01
As for video games being escapist - how does the ability to replay a first day at school over and over again resemble reality? If you are a transvestite infantilist Bruce Willis?
 
  

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