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"anorexia: not just for suicidal teenage white girls any more."

 
  

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mondo a-go-go
10:13 / 16.11.01


"This is a place for people who realize that ana is a lifestyle and a decision, not an 'illness' to be fixed,"

disturbing. discovered via this blog which depresses me rather....
 
 
Not Here Still
10:24 / 16.11.01
Fuck me.

Can't decide if this a serious site (in which case it's fucking sick, especially as it just seems to be a forum for weight loss products to be advertised) or very sharp satire.

But I'm not comfortable with it, one way or the other. There seems to be some very questionable advice on there about losing weight...
 
 
mondo a-go-go
11:00 / 16.11.01
that was pretty much my reaction to it, too.
 
 
Ariadne
11:07 / 16.11.01
I think it's for real - there are a few similar sites around and I heard an interview on the radio with one of the women who runs one.

Her view was, leave us alone - if we want to starve ourselves that's our business. They post tips, calorie counts, exchange stories; essentially she was saying that it was a haven from the rest of the revolting, fat, world that just doesn't understand.
 
 
gentleman loser
12:29 / 16.11.01
Anorexia is a serious mental illness, not a lifestyle choice. Here's some quick numbers from the National Institute of Mental Health:

In their lifetime, an estimated 0.5 percent to 3.7 percent of females suffer from anorexia and an estimated 1.1 percent to 4.2 percent suffer from bulimia.

Community surveys have estimated that between 2 percent and 5 percent of Americans experience binge-eating disorder in a 6-month period.

The mortality rate among people with anorexia has been estimated at 0.56 percent per year, or approximately 5.6 percent per decade, which is about 12 times higher than the annual death rate due to all causes of death among females ages 15-24 in the general population.

Now that's scary!

The strange irony is that U.S. citizens are getting fatter every year (obesity is at record levels), but at the same time we're constantly bombarded by images of sickly thin girls and steroid boys. The diet industry makes thirty billion a year selling us body images that most of us have no chance of achieving without damaging our health.

Where's it all going to end?

[ 16-11-2001: Message edited by: gentleman loser ]
 
 
QUINT
15:58 / 16.11.01
How interesting. I just raised this question exactly in the 'should I get a piercing' thread in 'help'.

Weird.
 
 
grant
16:26 / 16.11.01
I posted a similar thread a ways back, a couple board-reboots ago.

Yes, they're for real.

Yes, they trade tips and offer support for (mostly) girls trying to get those last few pounds off.

Yes, it's a little scary.

The best of them have front pages warning viewers that the sites contain "triggering" material, in case you're a recovering anorexic. Some even say they know the quest for thin perfection can't last, but they're not done with it yet, so until they are, they're gonna shed pounds.

Does bring the whole idea of "will" and "self" and "mental illness" into relief.

Article against pro anorexia sites (no links that I saw).

Time Magazine article.
Plenty of links along the side.


Totally In Control proana site.
quote:*Before going to a restaurant or party, think about what you will eat. When you get there, remember your plan. Alcoholic beverages can add lots of calories. Drink a glass of skim milk or some healthy snacks before you leave.

*Don't get discouraged when you plateau. Realize this up front. Plateauing is healthy and necessary. During these times, focus on drinking more water and a little extra walking each day. Remember the three laws of success in dieting: "Consistency, consistency and consistency."

*Use visualization. Picture yourself as you would like to be and focus on that picture as often as possible. Find an old photo that you like of yourself when you were thinner. Have copies made and put one in your purse or wallet, on the refrigerator door, at your desk, on the bathroom mirror and anywhere you can think of to help you visualize your new, thinner self.

*Above all-WRITE IT DOWN. Keep an eating diary. Carry a piece of paper folded up or an index card in your pocket, purse or wallet and write down everything you eat during the day. Look up the foods in a reference book at home in the evening and add up the calories actually consumed.

*Feel your hunger..dont try to suppress it. If your hungry that means your losing weight. You WANT to be hungry. If you're not, you're not doing it right. In time you will get a wonderful high off of being hungry and thoroughly enjoy the sensation. Hunger is not your enemy! The sooner that is realised the sooner you will reach your goals

*Use symbols. This may sound funny to some of you...or even most of you. Wear an anorexia ring. Its like any other ring but when you wear it, you can't be bad. Wear it all the time. (hint..get a ring a little too small for your fingers...push it on...you'll have a hard time getting it back off and while trying you'll realise you don't really want the food.)


These tips sound a lot like something you might read on the Magick forum here. Only with weight. Reading further down, it's no wonder....

quote:*Which brings us to a major tip. EAT MINDFULLY. Eat in the same place every day, dont do anything but eat, chew slowly, and eventually you will get bored and want to go something else, thus you eat less.

*Find a new interest fairly regularly. I like to pick a topic or an activity each week that i indulge in or research, and it helps to keep your mind off food. Ideally we should be striving to make a plan, and stick to it, without beating ourselves up alll day long, running calories and weights through our heads and promoting an obsession with food. The best way, according to NLP, to remove a fixation with something, is to become fixated with something else. Re-establish your habits.

*Another recommended way, according to NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programming), to stop yourself eating certain foods... is association. In your mind, picture safe foods, a carrot, an apple, and then picture you at your goal weight. Or you can actually line up on the bench, a carrot an apple and a picture of a celebrity or somebody who is as thin as you want to be. Repeat this constantly, and try and do it each day until eventually it will become such habit that as soon as you eat a carrot, you feel good about yourself and inspired. Along with this of course you must picture the food you most have a weakness for, and put that next to a picture of somebody who is fat. Drill this one into your mind. Thats an important one. Eventually you are going to have it so implanted in your brain that you dont even have to think about it.
 
 
Ierne
17:55 / 16.11.01
These tips sound a lot like something you might read on the Magick forum here. Only with weight. – grant

Do you mean "only about weight issues" or "only with susbstance"?

(edited so I don't look quite so defensive in my pointy wizard hat and swirly cloak... )

[ 16-11-2001: Message edited by: Ierne ]
 
 
Ganesh
00:04 / 17.11.01
These sites, like the pro-suicide ones, are not uncommon. Nature of the Internet, really: however extreme or 'minority' one's worldview, it's always possible to find other people out there who'll happily reinforce and normalise one's manifesto. We're right; it's the rest of the world that's wrong. At the 'harmless crank' end of the scale, you've got yer sub-Icke reptilian conspiracies; at the 'potentially dangerous' pole, there're the paedophile networks. I reckon the anorexic websites lie somewhere in the middle: potentially harmful, but difficult to justify censoring 'em.

I can certainly sympathise with the argument that adult anorexics - like SM edge-players, blood-drinkers, women boxers, etc., etc. - have a right to pursue 'lifestyle choices' which are widely seen as harmful and self-destructive. The difficulty arises when their self-starvation becomes acutely life-threatening: when they develop secondary complications (organ failure, dehydration, coagulation disorders, strokes); when they're actually collapsing in the street. There is then a moral/ethical obligation on the part of the medical/psychiatric profession to at least attempt to treat the 'cause' of those secondary illnesses - the anorexic mindset itself.

If the 'anorexic lifestyle' didn't necessitate such frequent contact with doctors - who, understandably, become frustrated at having to treat hostile, resentful patients with (what they frequently perceive to be) chronic, self-inflicted 'revolving-door' problems - I'm sure it would be much more readily seen as a viable 'lifestyle' as opposed to a highly morbid (and frequently mortal) psychiatric disorder...
 
 
gentleman loser
14:12 / 17.11.01
Some excellent points there, Ganesh. I'm not in favor of censorship and I don't expect to change anyone's profound system of beliefs.

It's the "thin (for women) or muscular (for men) at any cost" ideal that we're all being constantly fed that gives me cause for alarm.

Five-year-old girls 'weight conscious'

This, along with grant's links, is upsetting to me. I think that parents have become so permissive now that children's diets are completely out of control. I grew up with a mom who said "Not going to eat your steamed broccoli and cottage cheese loaf, huh? Well, you can just sit there until you do."

I did and I always ended up having to eat it eventually!

[ 17-11-2001: Message edited by: gentleman loser ]
 
 
Shortfatdyke
13:52 / 18.11.01
the site seems like a dumb joke. i think...? there's no replies to any of the messages on the board, it's like no one actually uses it.

i knew someone with anorexia. she'd suffered terrible abuse as a child and was using it as a control thing - she had power over what happened to her body when she starved herself. for anyone to say it's a lifestyle choice..... makes me very angry and upset.
 
 
Ganesh
14:00 / 18.11.01
Believe me, SFD, even if that site's a pisstake (and I'm not convinced it is), there are oodles of 'anorexia is a valid lifestyle choice' sites all over the Internet. Sick or not, it's the way of the World Wide Web...
 
 
The Damned Yankee
01:06 / 19.11.01
Fuck me sideways.

Just had a gander at the "Totally In Control" site. Stupid, stupid kid. Might as well wear a sign 'round her neck that says "I am a tragedy waiting for my moment."

There's a lot of pain and desperation out there ("no shit?" they say), and stupid shit like this is what comes of it.

"One day I'm going to drop a bomb on this City."
A contraceptive bomb." - Spider Jerusalem

[ 19-11-2001: Message edited by: The Damned Yankee ]
 
 
grant
18:44 / 19.11.01
quote:Originally posted by Ierne:
These tips sound a lot like something you might read on the Magick forum here. Only with weight. – grant

Do you mean "only about weight issues" or "only with susbstance"?



Only about weight loss, you, you!
 
 
bitchiekittie
22:27 / 21.11.01
the picture alone and the excerpts are frightening. this is a very scary illness - we have to educate our kids early and hope they adopt a healthy body image

what a helpless feeling it must be to watch your child slowly kill her/himself
 
 
Billy Corgan
22:34 / 21.11.01
I agree. It really saddens me to see people give in like that, to succumb to their worst insecurities. We are all beautiful. I wish I could tell everyone that.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
00:21 / 25.11.01
I listened to a report on NPR about this, and from what they said, the "hosts" of the websites are constantly being told to shut the sites down by authorities....

And I was shocked to hear that they do so. I may not agree with this sort of thing, but other mental illnesses get to group together and go on and on about thier sicknesses.

Is it our place to interfere? Yeah, it's wrong and sick, but I think that Scientology is sick and wrong. Do I have the right to shut down their websites?
 
 
bitchiekittie
22:15 / 25.11.01
rose - I agree with you, to a point. but these are people who are very very ill, and will die if they dont seek help. even if they do get help before they kill themselves, they can do serious, permanant damage to their bodies.

while they have every right to do this to themselves, and to talk about it freely, they are so far gone they dont really see how bad off they are - would anyone fully in their "right mind" damage their bodies so dramatically and deliberately? its like any other mental illness, and they need to be treated
 
 
grant
19:15 / 26.11.01
So... should copies of the book "Final Exit" be banned then?
 
 
Ganesh
19:31 / 26.11.01
I feel very very ambivalent about all this. On the one hand, these sites encourage those with first-episode eating disorders into a full-blown anorexic 'career'; on the other, censoring them out of hand invokes the overtly-paternalistic spectre of the Psychiatrist As Heavy-Handed Tool Of The State, blotting out free speech under cover of 'treatment'.

On balance, I think I'd go with not censoring the anorexia sites - and merely attempting to provide an appealling alternative for the 'anorexia as lifestyle' model.
 
 
bitchiekittie
10:45 / 27.11.01
actually, I dont agree on banning anything. well, very very little

but this just frightens me, and its hard to be logical in the face of such things. I can understand why people want it shut down
 
 
Malle Babbe
11:05 / 27.11.01
Aside fron the free speech and other assorted issues that these sites bring up, I have noticed that these sites often run ads for various crash weight loss products. Is there an ethical problem involved here? Adults are free to use these products anyway they wish, but isn't there an implied sponsorship of the pro-ana mindset by having these ads on these sites?
 
 
bitchiekittie
11:10 / 27.11.01
of course. which is why, Im sure, there have been/will be boycotts of the products. anyone wise who wants this shut down will start by bringing a protest against these products (and their reasons for doing so)into public light
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:39 / 27.11.01
I'd like to question the statistics that someone quoted at the top of the board. In my experience anorexia is much more widespread then people assume. Admittedly it might be in a mild form in most cases but it's still anorexia... I know at least four of my friends have suffered from it though not severely. One was living off red bull for about four months and had fainting spells every few days, I found her collapsed in the loo at work and had to call an ambulance. Another friend told me the other day that she was eating for the first time in three days while munching one piece of buttered toast. I'd say that in the UK it's more likely to be about 30% of women who have anorexia at some point or another.

That figure itself is exactly why sites like this are dangerous because people can invent their own ways of being anorexic but to tell people exactly how to do it, when teenagers and women in their twenties are so fragile about weight, is pretty fucking disgusting.
 
 
Ganesh
10:58 / 28.11.01
Yes, anorexia represents the extreme end of a more gradual spectrum - just as, ooh, worrying about the size of one's penis would conceivably fit criteria for body dysmorphic disorder. Or believing in God could be seen as psychosis, come to that. All depend, to some degree, on cultural context - what society deems 'acceptable irrationality', I guess.

And yeah, the sites are worrying - but couldn't this 'ethical dilemma' be equally applied to the Internet in its entirety? The downside of freedom of information expression and access is the risk of exposure (of the psychologically vulnerable) to concepts which might eventually prove physically and mentally injurious.

All depends how paternalistic - or nannying - we, as a society, choose to be. Children can access all kinds of material over the Net: if we censor the anorexia or suicide sites (and remember, there's precious little research material devoted specifically to this subject), shouldn't we then be prepared to censor much more widely?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
11:32 / 28.11.01
but is the net the problem??

there's rotten.com, uglypeople.com, another one springs to mind that's sole purpose is to slag off butch dykes, and of course skrewdriver's site speaks for itself, esp the guestbook that's full of 'faggot i'm gonna fucking kill you'. the first two show that dumb fratboys don't have to photocopy cruel pics and post them on school noticeboards anymore, the other two are run by serious bigots who are quite capable of spreading their messages anyway, including handing out leaflets at school gates.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
11:41 / 28.11.01
or indeed, godhatesfags.com

i think my main issue with the pro-ana site (aside from the spelling of the abbreviation) is that crash-course diet aids are being sold/advertised as opposed to health/excercise tips.

it's not really about whether they should but about how they go about it that bothers me.
 
 
bitchiekittie
12:12 / 28.11.01
as much as I hate such groups, I firmly believe they have the right to spout off such crap, on the internet or otherwise. the same with this site. however, I also think that people have a right to fight against it, and should. Im very afraid for the younger girls who havent gone over the edge yet who find this place and feel further validation in what they are doing to themselves.

thats the great thing about freedom of speech - not only do you have the right to be offensive to masses of people and give potentially harmful messages, but you can also slam down those that are if you make yourself heard. whos to say the former is acceptable but not the latter?
 
 
Ganesh
13:49 / 28.11.01
Indeed. And yes, I think the Net is the "problem" in this instance in that, while there are certainly other 'rallying flags' for (potentially harmful) minority groups, nothing's quite as 'free' (in the sense of going almost entirely unchallenged) - or as interactive - as the Internet.

Sure, it's hardly the "cause" of anorexia (societal pressures, family dynamics, control, blah blah blah) but it's by far the most efficient means of normalising the extreme I've ever seen. That's both its curse and its blessing.

I don't think the answer's censorship. I think it's more important to try to teach children explicitly how to evaluate and screen information for themselves. A tall order...

[ 28-11-2001: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
bitchiekittie
13:57 / 29.11.01
..which you start when your kids are still small. and you are right, it is quite a tall order - body image doesnt seem to be built on logic or reason
 
 
Tryphena Absent
07:52 / 30.11.01
Yes, the internet is a problem but one that is symptomatic of human society. I am prone to disagreeing with the statement that the internet is 'the' problem because extremism has always existed. The internet gives a forum to people and they utilise it but it's just as likely to harbour an anti anorexia site as a pro anorexia site.

Sites like this one aren't going to convince little girls and boys to become anorexic and they will disgust more people then they appeal to: Support for such a site means that the problem must pre-exist it. Underground groups of people will always find a voice (and I think that we have to accept that this is an underground group though not a positive one) through newsletters and 'zines and while the internet provides a perfect setting for this we all know the benefits of the net.

Anorexia is a cultural disease and it's constantly bowed down to by society. We let it come in to creation again and again by buying all those silly little magazines with Geri Halliwell on the front because fewer kids would get anorexia if they didn't believe thin was good.

To be perfectly honest Ganesh I found your comments on anorexia in answer to my post quite patronising because anorexia is a disease of the mind... it exists in levels and harbours itself, it does not simply exist in an extreme setting and many anorexics start off eating less and less before they stop eating altogether. I think we'd do well to remember that, precisely because these people are the ones who might actually be affected by sites like this.
 
 
Ganesh
08:37 / 30.11.01
I'm sorry you found my comments patronising, Nina; I don't really see why. For my part, I found your "we'd do well to remember people die of this" comment obvious and, ultimately, unhelpful.

I was (and am) in no way trying to suggest that concerns about one's weight - to a degree which is untimately detrimental to one's health - occur only in an "extreme setting"; I believe I acknowledged that that we call 'anorexia nervosa' is only the extreme end of a cultural gradation. At what point one chooses to label it "disease" is, however, a moot point, and by no means straightforward - I stand by that. Similarly, I did not suggest that the Internet is the sole source of the problem: I said that in this instance (ie. the phenomenon of extremist websites providing a normalising community setting) the Internet was pivotal. Sure, anorexia nervosa "pre-existed" the Internet (I'd be extremely foolish to try to argue otherwise), but websites like the one featured are important in that they seek to normalise the extreme end of the spectrum. You and I might happily believe anorexia to constitute a "disease of the mind" (whatever that somewhat nebulous term actually means) but as it gets easier and easier for sufferers to find rallying groups on the Internet, it gets harder to convince them to accept medical/psychiatric help. Anecdotally, I've had at least three (quite severely) anorexic girls quote Internet 'facts' at me in the past in order to justify their refusal of medical input.

I don't think I'm suggesting that casual Net surfers will chance across pro-anorexia websites and decide to halve their body-weight on a whim. I'm talking about the milder variants, those individuals whose concern with body weight is becoming obsessive but is not yet 'pathological' (ie. not dangerously thin). Parents, friends, doctors begin to conceptualise things in terms of illness. The sufferer turns to the Internet, find sites that really strike a chord, full of sympathetic people who'll readily agree with them that no, the problem is that the rest of the world is too fat. That's the sub-group that worries me: the young, first-time anorexics who might conceivably engage with medical/psychiatric/counselling services if they didn't have direct, interactive access to something far more seductive. We tend, as people, to be swayed more by information which a) supports our own viewpoint, and b) is personalised. It's perhaps understandable, therefore, that "anti-anorexia" websites don't cut much ice within the subgroup of 'moderate' anorexics.

I suspect in saying this, I'm arguing the same thing as you, Nina, in your final point. Where we differ, however, (I think) is on the issue of censorship. I agree that such sites are "disgusting" but, on balance, I believe that removing them altogether (if such a thing were possible) would set a dangerous precedent. Harm to others (paedophilia, 'terrorism') may justify censorship; in our society, harm to oneself is an altogether greyer area.

As I say, I don't think we're arguing fundamentally different viewpoints here. It's not a case of my ignoring the huge, arguably detrimental contribution of the 'Geri Halliwell' effect, or 'forgetting' that severe anorexia nervosa carries a high mortality rate. A more pertinent query might be what should (and can) we actually do about it? And while we're about it, who - in this context - is "we"?

[ 30-11-2001: Message edited by: Ganesh v4.2 ]
 
 
Naked Flame
08:37 / 30.11.01
erm...

there seems to be a consensus that these sites are wrong in some kind of absolute sense. All the reactions in this thread are concerned with figuring out exactly how wrong, and whether or not something should be done.

Now maybe I'm just playing devil's advocate, or maybe I'm not... but does anyone see positive potential in this sort of thing? I mean, on one level, these sites are trying to help people get control and achieve their goals. The fact that those goals might be life-threatening seems to be the central argument against the proana sites. But many goals are life-threatening. At least, a great many of the bigger ones (i'm thinking mountain-climbing here, for example.)

Are these sites offering a way through to full-on destructive deprogramming of modern mediated femininity? offering an escape from control by going further and faster than the mechanisms of control can tolerate?

Just to turn this around, bodybuilding used to have a thoroughly positive image- the Charles Atlas, Mr Universe male ideal- then someone coined the term 'bigorexia.' Bodybuilding can also have serious long term effects (body weight outstripping the heart's ability to provide blood, steroid abuse, seemingly brain shrinkage, etc.) yet its position is ambivalent.

The girl in the blog Kooky linked to was 5'7" and trying to get down under 140lbs. I'm 6'2" and trying to get up over 140lbs. Which of us, if either, is sick?
 
 
Ganesh
08:37 / 30.11.01
You might conceivably argue that "de-programming femininity" etc. through pro-anorexia sites p-o-o-o-ssibly has benefits to society at large - but it's largely to the eventual detriment of the individuals concerned.

And yeah, body-building could be viewed as yet another form of 'societally-sanctioned illness'' There are numerous other examples of quite severely distorted body image in daily life. Our culture obsesses over body type on a near-constant basis. "Does my bum look big in this?" It does indeed seem rather arbitrary that some aspects are labelled 'illness' and some not. I think it taps into the wider issue of what, as a society, we'd deem 'healthy' - again, a tangled can of worms indeed.

In practical terms (and where disorders of body image are concerned), the question is rarely "Is this sick?" but the related "Should this be 'treated'?" and, at the more severe end of the scale, "Can I force this person to accept 'treatment'?"
 
 
higuita
14:58 / 30.11.01
Why do we argue that seeing lots of pictures of thin people makes us want to be thin, and also suggest that violent films don't make people want to be violent?
-someone might want to throw the phrase 'predisposition' in there, but the points the same.
Me, I didn't even follow the link. I don't want to see it but it doesn't surprise me that sites like that exist.
Being honest, if someone pulled it off the web, I wouldn't protest but - let's face it - all the things we want to censor existed in some form before the means of propagation.

If it were proved that one person died in some measure due to the site, would it be worth accepting censorship then?
 
  

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