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It is time to learn.

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07:55 / 15.01.03

Ni> ..knowing he shouldn't bother ..

Joe, your facts are wrong with regard to the Crowley/Dee thing - sorry, but they are just plain wrong. I'd refer back to absence of gravitas's original point, how do you tell if an astral contact is indeed genuine or if you're simply deluding oneself, indulging in wish fufillment and fantasy - to judge from your "CV" above, I think this is what you're doing. Sorry.

12:13 / 15.01.03

Uhm, ok

I have looked through as many sources as I could find and I personally came to the conclusion that.....duh, elemental crossroads, uh, LBRP.

Before me, Raphael
Behind me, Gabriel
On my right hand, Micheal
On my left hand, Auriel

For about me flames the Pentagram
And above me shines the Six-rayed star

I don't really understand why Joe is talking about three years ago. This "elemental crossroads" has been around for awhile. You can literally pull or put yourself there with a simple LBRP.

13:12 / 15.01.03

I think this is because Joe has quite a powerful internal magicial universe - which he accepts the objective reality of - and expects everyone else to do so to. I will post something longer about this later (providing I can be bothered).

14:29 / 15.01.03

W00t! New Thread!

By all means, be bothered

This looks juicy.

14:48 / 15.01.03

Well, what I meant was I was going to write out a full statement of exactly what I thought of Joe's claims, being as polite and non-confrontational as possible. I don't feel entirely comfortable with this, as it hedges us towards a full on loggerheads conflict - but I might.

One reason, I might not do this do this that I recognise that I am likely to be partially wrong about things. Any situation you're emotional involved in, you've got your bloinkers on a little, and when you're forming judgements on a few hundred words of text - well, speaks for itself. However, I think I'll continue this line of thought in your new thread - most probably tomorrow.

15:13 / 15.01.03

Kelly was not Crowleys incarnation Dee was.

You haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Crowley wrote his I-ching divination I meant geomancy was his favourite for personal use, sorry for my lack of clarity.

You haven't a clue what you're talking about.

The reason you have not heard of the crossroads in any texts is because it was created as a focus point for magick on the astral in the last 3 years. To get there use such focuses as the pentagram and meditation upon the nature of the elements, and then pull yourself in-between the 5 elements.

You haven't a clue what you're talking about.

OK, I'm done with this thread. You guys have fun with the "ippssissimus"; let me know how the newly-constructed "elemental crossroads" is. There's no profit that I can see in pursuing this discussion any further.

17:20 / 15.01.03

I was just looking at the first four pages preview of last week's New X-Men. Now I have in mind the crackling idea that Joe is Quentin.

Can we make parallels between them?

23:46 / 15.01.03

Joe Im calling your bluff.. You are Asa.

05:32 / 16.01.03

SM try reading Crowleys autohagiography again.
The crossroads was previously a point of focus to get between the elements, now it is a major magical focal point, check it out, if you cant work the pentagram tell me in pt.II and I will provide a simpler technique.

05:49 / 16.01.03

Please, yes. Take all this to PM, would you? In-crowd posturing tends to be frightfully dull for the rest of us.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:46 / 16.01.03

I couldn't agree more. It bored my tits off even when I was A.E. Whaite.

18:26 / 16.01.03

Better to be A.E.Waite than Terry Waite, though, eh?

Ah, the joy of Beirut-hostage-based humour...

Wrecks City-Zen

19:50 / 16.01.03

I couldn't agree more. It bored my tits off even when I was A.E. Whaite

That explains alot Haus. Except the spelling...

21:40 / 16.01.03

I hate it when people delete posts that I've referenced, Rex. I mean, I can see why you'd want to remove your babbling about people you've worked with (including Asa, as I recall), calling yourself JP, referencing Talbot and all the rest of the nudge-nudge wink-wink crap you'd spilled before capping off with the "let's take this to PM" comment.

But doing so makes my post rather nonsensical. Which tends to make me cranky.

Your snark about Haus's spelling would be more effective if alot was actually a word.

22:00 / 16.01.03

sheesh, I wish somebody would delete this whole lame-ass thread.

Wrecks City-Zen

22:10 / 16.01.03

My apologies Betty. I asked for the deletion of the post so that this issue with "Joe" could be laid to rest. I has been away for a few days and I wished to post to "Joe", as he was not responding to the e-mail that had been sent. On your "orders"(Please, yes. Take all this to PM, would you? In-crowd posturing tends to be frightfully dull for the rest of us. - a snarky post as well...) I asked to do just that,by means of deletion. If "Joe" is a target, I don't need another "Knowledge" incident.

My comment towards Haus should be taken exactly as is. Haus does fit the persona of A.E. Waite and I found it amusing for Haus to claim to be a reincarnation of him. The spelling comment was simply a jest. If he was that person, then Haus would have spelt his name right.

Arghh. How dare I break the #1 rule of Barbelith? "Thou shalt not mock the Haus" If I offended, I apologize. There was no "Haus Bashing" taking place.

I do appreciate the english lesson dear...imagine, all these years, and I had no idea "alot" was not a word. Do you feel better now that you have shamed me? Was it really necessary to quote almost the entire deleted post? Really,was it? I deleted for the reasons you gave,believing to be doing the right thing, and now I am subject to your attack. Christ,sorry to make you cranky, but there was no need to take that action, nor do I appreciate you calling my post "Babbling" and "Crap".This does not make for a very friendly forum.

I have decided not to be nasty about this, but really, back off.

Please.

(Ps: Notice how I used the word back... it's the new, peace loving, flame extinguishing me.)

ONLY NICE THINGS

22:38 / 16.01.03

Actually, I used to spell it A.E. Whaite. I was widely misquoted. I had the same problem when I was Doctor John Deed. People kept calling me Dr. John Dee. Very odd.

Doctor John Deed. A maverick alchemist. An alchemist who's not afraid to bend the laws. Of physick.

Wrecks City-Zen

22:50 / 16.01.03

Ah. Chalk it up to a speech impediment.

Wrecks City-Zen

22:53 / 16.01.03

Oh, and I second Chris23's motion.

Delete this fucker before it becomes cancer. Or another "Ierne's Blind Date".

00:10 / 17.01.03

There's no use deleting it, as it's been referenced in too many other threads now. It's also kick started a really decent one (nice one, cusm!).

This is also the point of not deleting one's own posts. Bad form Rex, I'm afraid. It's not entirely your fault though, as a moderator will have dropped the ball (otherwise they'd have refused the action and PM'd you). As a near universal rule I'd only acknowledge deletions in the case of duplicated posts.

00:11 / 17.01.03

My apologies then, Rex. The "PM" reference was a request, not an order, and I misinterpreted both your reasons for deleting the post and your tone towards Haus.

Thirding the deletion request.

01:37 / 17.01.03

I acked Rex's delete request. Apologies if that caused some confusion, I felt Rex's reason of not adding to the posturing was a sound one. Really, I'm in favor of deleting this whole thread, and the others that consist entirely of squabblings about and over Joe as it has all been an enormously distracting waste of time that has only managed to upset people.

Good points have been that a couple of good threads were spawned from it, and people all had something to do for a bit (woo! excitement! fight fight!). However, I think in this case a cleanup is in order. I'll delay that for a bit in case anyone can offer a good reason not to.

01:42 / 17.01.03

...mmhh... no. Just go ahead and delete the damn threads.

06:27 / 17.01.03

Personally I think this thread is a mine of info on how mages think and deal with claims to authority, and should not be deleted for that reason. I mean, I don't care, you mods do what you feel is right, I've copied it anyway, but I for one think it should not be scratched from the Barbierecord. There is much to be learned from all this, especially for newcomers to magick or the 'Lith or both.

07:38 / 17.01.03

I would tend to agree with Bill on that actually. Yeah, there's a lot of bitchiness in the thread, but I do think its valuable as a comment on social interaction between people who practice magic, and the various issues around subjective/objective belief systems. There's quite a few interesting side topics that have sprung up around this cat fight, and I think those threads would be diminished if we took away the initial cause of consternation.

Surely we don't have to go around hiding our dirty laundry just because a few egos were bashed in the process, it doesn't strike me as particularly explorative. I think the whole 'Joe' thing has been quite positive really, as the strong response his comments recieved just shows how one persons powerful internal world can make people uncomfortable when it tries to spread, meme-like, into other peoples paradigms.

I'm quite interested in what might happen if the forum were to suspend collective disbelief enough to form a kind of syncretism between Joe's personal internal world, and the general collective belief system that people posting in the magick tend to agree on. The 'internal worlds' thread throws up the idea that Joe is just crazy in a different way to how the rest of us are crazy, therefore if we are to accept the often touted principle of 'make freinds until they beg for mercy' , then an attempt at syncretism between Joe's world and that of the barbelith magick forum should probably be considered the optimum outcome.

I don't think we have to delete the thread, just stop posting unproductive remarks in it and maybe use it as an opportunity to learn more about our own practices and belief systems through interaction with someone approaching the same material from a more extreme perspective. The fact that Joe's stance has made so many people on here feel uncomfortable and aggressive probably signposts that the issues around it are worth looking at more closely.

08:16 / 17.01.03

GL - I second your feelings on deletion. It's pretty damn interesting watching everybody (pick option) a) bicker b) panic c)decide they're "above it all" d) give up in frustration etc.
- sometimes all in one post. An interesting example of group (or mob?) psychology at workregarding magick, and certainly a useful look at on-line community dynamics.

I find your comments about "sycretizing" with Joe and his beliefs very interesting, and it's certainly an experiment I'd like to observe, if not participate in at the moment. Congrats as well, for attempting to take the whole situation forward and get something positive out of it. I'm not going to to attempt to do any formal work in the direction myself though - largely because there's too much stuff in my personal work I want to do, and I'm having trouble finding the time for this as it is.

Ridiculous thought for the day: Joe (and this whole thread) = Qliptoth of Barbelith/transducer!?

16:12 / 17.01.03

Don't delete it, we'll miss Quentin's writing skills, sorry, I mean, Joe.

I'm sure Joe and his fellas will find groups.yahoo.com suitable for their religion founding purposes, or at least to breathe the air they want to breath here.

16:13 / 17.01.03

Oh, and lets go back to restricted registration.

Wrecks City-Zen

17:23 / 17.01.03

Personally I think this thread is a mine of info on how mages think and deal with claims to authority, and should not be deleted for that reason.

A very good point. My fear is founded in previous experiences such as "Dammit Knowledge!" and "Ierne's Blind Date" (and I am gilty of fanning the flame wars also...) I guess it's ok too let it sit for a bit.

Expressionless: Consider my wrists slapped. I know it was bad form, but I felt it to be a valid reason. I apologize for any confuusion and snarkiness on my part.Sorry to Betty and all the others I caused trouuble for.

I love you guys...group hug? (Hey, isn't being a new father changing me for the better? I'm trying really hard to be a better "suit")

As for Joe, one point to mention: I did receive a PM from him and guess what? It was the 93rd Pm in my box. An odd sync to Crowley's 93 current perhaps?

Anyone remember my teacher and his ramblings? Lucianna Drake No, Joe is not Luci. Luci was the real deal...and I'm sure May Tricks or Pandal can tell you about hir...or check the Castaneda thread. My point is: Most teachers do not look good on paper. (Poor Asa.)

I apologize for encouraging this and if I offend, again, I am sorry.I just like to push the envelope on reality.

Friends?

ONLY NICE THINGS

18:21 / 17.01.03

Dude, you have got to stop flagellating yourself about "Ierne's blind date". Lots of people do things in their youth that they later regret. I'm sure nobody even thinks about it anymore.

Wrecks City-Zen

18:30 / 17.01.03

Point taken Haus. That thread is a fine example of how something like this can turn...very...ugly. If I was stupid, cruel or tacky,then I have learned.

Wow...it really is "Time to learn":P

18:35 / 17.01.03

I have a lot of thoughts on Joe -- I was playing along with his posts knowing full well that Joe was not a primary suit, and that the persona behind Joe might be more intelligent than the delivery of his intent might suggest.

I will be perusing everything egain this weekend and offer a sense of closure of sorts, for me, and of what I know about this ordeal with Joe but please, give it a rest, he hasn't been as aggressive as The Knodger in his heyday, and I don't doubt that Joe means well, including whatever agenda he has.

Wrecks City-Zen

18:37 / 17.01.03

Agreed, on all points.

Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero

00:45 / 18.01.03

Personally I think this thread is a mine of info on how mages think and deal with claims to authority...

Not really a "mine" to me so much as a list of insults they'll use. I only just started reading this thread, and apparently parts have been deleted, but christ, some of you guys were pretty harsh.

How dare I break the #1 rule of Barbelith? "Thou shalt not mock the Haus

Ah fuck, I thought the number one rule was "don't feed the bears". Well, great. I told everyone Haus' knowledge of sixteenth century woodwinds was "spotty at best" and we have a bunch of dead bears.

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