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It is time to learn.

  
  

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Devil's Avocado
12:17 / 10.01.03
He is aware of how he's coming across, and I'm sure he would have taken it more slowly if he felt he had time.

But what would constitute proof? One man's proof is another man's heresay.
Everyone on this list has now had a chance to check the crossroads for themselves. If this was some kind of psychic bluff, (which it's not), wouldn't that show some level of power anyway, to send the invitation to everyone here, many of whom are powerful mages in their own right?

I suggest using all the tools at your disposal to verify what's being said here, as Bearman did. And of course keep asking questions.

Regardless of what you do, or think of the credentials, don't loose sight of what Joe was originally asking;

"due to the importance of the coming year I believe that those of us who are more experienced and knowledgeable should begin making a series of points of instruction and understanding."

"We should also place up a list of useful links, and books"

I though this was what was happening in Barbelith anyway? A magickal knowledge base for sharing and learning.

What is basically being said is that it's time for us all to think *bigger* and pull out all the stops.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:00 / 10.01.03
If Joe were to elaborate on his initial posts I'd be interested in further dialogue, but I'm not sure why we're being asked to make an astral journey in order to find out what he's talking about. Why exactly is he unwilling to communicate via barbelith like everybody else?

I think the problem Joe is running into here is that it's a bit presumptious to turn up and say little more than "lets start teaching people" and "lets make a list of books" and then expect people to devote some of their magickal time to engaging in an astral dialogue on the strength of this.
 
 
illmatic
14:17 / 10.01.03
2. In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth, and the Paths, of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.
It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.

Crowley, Liber O.
 
 
Devil's Avocado
14:27 / 10.01.03
He *has* communicated via Barbelith, provided statement of intent, and lenghty magical CV weither you accept it or not.

You ask for proof, but when it comes down to it you seem unwilling to at least check it out for yourself. I'm sorry but my reaction to a post like that would be to do exactly what Bearman did and use my favourite tool to see if there was anything *really* going on.

Why the resentment? You can check it out, if he's full of shit you can sit back and say "told you so" with no loss of face, but what if he's not?

Getting dizzy from going round in all these circles..
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:03 / 10.01.03
As I've repeatedly said, I'm not interested in disputing the claims of Joe's CV, I've never asked for any proof of anything, and I harbour absolutely no resentment towards him. I'm just trying to find out what he's actually talking about in a congenial manner and don't feel that this neccesarily calls for an astral journey when there's a perfectly good message board in front of me.

Joe has posted a statement of intent, and I'm attempting to continue the conversation using the medium in which said conversation was begun. If some form of psychic message has been left for me, then I'll recieve this through the usual channels and procede accordingly. Business as usual. However, Joe's ability to send and receive information via psychic means does not preclude him from participating in a conversation using barbelith, and I don't think I'm being too unfair asking him to elaborate on some of the issues around his initial statement of intent.
 
 
gravitybitch
15:26 / 10.01.03
I just can't stop myself.... (not sure more coffee would make for a wiser post, either....)

OK. I think most folk agree that the world is in a bad spot and things need to be done. Human consciousness needs to evolve en masse, we need to stop killing off entire ecosystems for profit, etc. And time is always shorter than it seems - there are many things that should have been done yesterday.

If I may summarize, the questions that are coming up seem to be falling into the categories of, "Well, what do you want us to do about it?" and, "Why should your (still unspecified) list of things to do take precedence over a) what Barbelith already has going on and b) any personal lists of ways to make the world a better place?" The sense I get is that people want more than a rallying cry of, "Follow me!" from an unfamiliar and untested voice. (Pardon my bluntness - this uncharacteristic lack of diplomacy is not meant to be aggressive in any way.)

Personally, I don't care what somebody's resume looks like. My questions are on the order of whether or not I can work with somebody on a personal basis and if the end results of a collaboration would be greater than the sum of all our parts in it. These questions are also unanswered...


If we're still talking about saving the world, etc; we're already *way* behind schedule. Joe might as well take the time to put together a sales pitch...
 
 
Stone Mirror
15:56 / 10.01.03
"Joe" reports I am also the one responsible for defeating the current incarnation of Edward Kelley...

Um, wasn't Crowley the last incarnation of Kelley? So, you were not only taught by Crowley astrally, but you "defeated" him in his current incarnation...?

...no postings by jokers or those who are not a very high level.

Oops.
 
 
mixmage
16:00 / 10.01.03
Ned Kelly?

... pretend they're Irish...
 
 
Badbh Catha
17:10 / 10.01.03
There is a simple way to side-step all of this 'is-he-isn't-he' chit chat; don't spend two hours writing an indignant but witty counter rebuttal, just DO WHAT JOE SUGGESTS, go to the Elemental Crossroads on the Astral and talk to those you meet there. – Asa

Another simple way to sidestep all this is for Joe to step off the pedestal you've placed him on and give the people what they want: answers to their questions, typed as text onto their screens. A little grunt work never hurt anyone, especially people who claim adeptship.

Magick is not about doing what someone else tells you to do; it's about DOING, period. Part of that doing is asking questions and requesting concrete proof and clarification.

An honest magickian hasabsolutely no qualms about being questioned, or even admitting, "Well, I don't know. Let's find out, shall we?"
 
 
Stone Mirror
17:27 / 10.01.03
I checked in on the astral plane.

Crowley says Joe owes him money.
 
 
Stone Mirror
19:20 / 10.01.03
I decided I should wirte more so created a spell to decrease my workload and increase my time.

Y' know I did this once myself. I made the Sign of the Bird at the president of the company and uttered the mystical phrase, "You're an utter moron."

Worked good.

I studied many forms of divination- Tarot, astrology, tattwa, chieromancy (palmistry), oneiromancy (dream interpretation), hydromancy, pyromancy, geomancy (Perdurabo, a.k.a. Crowley's favourite), and several others.

No haruspication? Shocking.

By the bye, if geomancy was Crowley's favorite, how is it that the divinations recorded in his diaries are almost exclusively from the I Ching?

Inquiring minds are dying to know.
 
 
penitentvandal
19:41 / 10.01.03
I've said it before, and I'll say it again many times, I'm sure...

I was WRRRRRRAAAAAAAUUUUUUNG!

I am so glad this fucker isn't JJ. I mean, having someone else on my pgce who was a cooler magician than me would be entirely too much of a blow to my fragile little ego...

I think it was Gypsy Lantern who noted that all Joe's asking us to do is, essentially what Barbelith is already doing. Creating a forum for magicians to discuss things? Yup. Pointing people in the direction of useful sources of information? Yup. Fomenting magickal activism for the good of the planet/humanity? Correct-a-mundo. Check out the Transducer thread, the threads about Gek, I.M.P, the Spiral Amplifly, and, if I can blow my own horn like a yoga master for a minute here, my own contributions in the form of the Black Sun Tarot gedankenexperiment (which birthed it's own thread almost completely free of my interference), and the Quantum Jesus Project. We're already doing it, Joe - it's just that some of us aren't doing it in the same way as you, and I think that's a good thing. Not that your way of doing things is 'bad' or 'wrong' - but I feel we need as many different people, coming at this game from as many different angles as possible, to get things done.

Given everything you've studied, you must be quite powerful. So let me issue a simple challenge by way of verifying your credentials: PM me, telling me something about myself you couldn't possibly know either by (a) observing Barbelith, (b) looking at my website, (c) hacking my computer, or (d) talking with Asa about anything I may have posted up on the MOB website. Something definite and specific - no Jonathan Cainer bollocks. Names and dates, you know what I mean.

I could certainly go astral travelling and try to contact you, or Crowley, or whoever, but, as pointed out by other posters here, how would I know if they were really you, or Crowley, and not hallucinations? Besides which, the astral side of magic has never been my thing. I'm a visceral guy. I like to get down and dirty and smelly and moist when I do my magic. Maybe I'm just common.

And if I come across as a sarky get, there are two reasons for that. One, it's the magical role I have to assume this year (Erisian insubordinate), and two, I'm a bit pished, like. But in all honesty, Joe, I do hope you turn out to be the real thing, coz it would be a drag to have wasted all this time talking to you otherwise.

On an entirely different note, what's China like, btw?
 
 
Kobol Strom
20:01 / 10.01.03
'It is time to learn.'

You cannot fault this enthusiasm.

Anyway,who could possibly fulfill everyones expectations after a line like that?I'd hate to try,so my advice to Joe is - don't. I'd recommend hanging around and keep on posting,coz I remember what it was like when I first posted on Barbelith,everything I wrote seemed so much better than it seemed to be recieved.People will respond when they get your 'tone' is all.Play the game:create a topic.Everyone has a voice.The more I learn the more I realise what I don't know.
 
 
cusm
21:01 / 10.01.03
Ok, lets all try to keep this from degenerating further into piss takings on Joe. He has assumed the haughty attitude of the Master Adept that most of us have long ago learned to laugh at, or stop doing ourselves. So, hopefully that point has come across sufficiently.

Joe: As for you, the resume is appreciated. This is most helpful. But understand that you are among peers here. Please feel welcome to add your insights to discussions here to the benefit of all. I for one would like to put you to immediate work on the Tarot and Rune collective projects, if you are interested. There is also the FAQ being written on the wiki that can use another experienced writer's hand. So, there are lots of places to share what you have to offer.

Just keep in mind the general tone here is that any tradition is as good as the next if worked at properly, including those made up individually. This is a level of mutual respect that has helped this site to grow into the community it is today. So illusions of grandeur are likely to get a good mocking, but its all in good will.

As a good start, the elemental crossroads you mention sounds interesting. Do start a thread on how you reach this place, and those able to go there can share what they see in the thread. This should make an excellent exercise for the class, no?
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
22:49 / 11.01.03
As a good start, the elemental crossroads you mention sounds interesting. Do start a thread on how you reach this place, and those able to go there can share what they see in the thread. This should make an excellent exercise for the class, no?

Yes this is exactly what Joe should teach us first. I can go to lots of places but I am not sure of the exact technique to get to where you want us to go. Also what are its attributes so I can confirm I have gone to the right place, using 777 for example.
 
 
· N · E · T ·
03:41 / 12.01.03
I was studying my copy of 777 until it suddenly disappeared without a trace. Then I was struck with the realization that 1 + 1 = 11. Is it possible for one to be enlightened without formal training, study, and practice? How do you know when you are enlightened, or that one is adept? Who or what could adequately gauge one's "level" and where could I go to be so measured?

You can call me Tom if you object to the pretentious title I chose randomly some time ago.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
04:10 / 12.01.03
Okay. Without wishing to get all confrontational or anything, I'm a bit surprised at how seriously some folk here have decided to take Mr. I'm-So-Bloody-Magickal's assertions of adeptitude.

The Barbelith Magick forum is one of the more open and accepting little wooden huts in the World Wide Wierd, with many different peeps rom many different paths strolling in and out. The price we pay for our relaxed and uncritical attitude is that every so often someone will come along and attempt to convince us that they're something that they're not. Sometimes this is harmless and funny, motivated by nothing more than prankishness; sometimes it's a bit more concerted and serious. Magickians, being involved in what is of necessity a pretty subjective business, are vulnerable to tricks, cons, and general mendacity. Self delusion is a trap we can fall into all too easily.

Prove me wrong, "Joe." If you're on the level, then I'll see ya at the crossroads one of these nights. If not... play somewhere else, okay?
 
 
Stone Mirror
04:59 / 12.01.03
Is it possible for one to be enlightened without formal training, study, and practice?

Absolutely. Hui-neng, the Sixth Patriarch of Zen, was an uneducated wood-cutter. While passing through the market place, he heard a monk chanting the Diamond Sutra, and was spontaneously enlightened.

How do you know when you are enlightened, or that one is adept?

If you have to ask whether you are one or the other, you're almost certainly not. If you suspect you're one or the other, you likely not. If you claim that you're one or the other, you're very likely not.

Who or what could adequately gauge one's "level" and where could I go to be so measured?

Presumably another adept or enlightened being could assess one's degree of enlightenment, but it's not a location you "get to", or a competition. I'd recommend you stop worrying about it...

Besides, according to Dogen Zenji, we're all enlightened in every instant. The drive to "achieve" some static state of presumptive "enlightenment" is itself a barrier.

If you meet the Buddha on the road,
Greet him with neither words nor silence.
Give him a poke in the nose,
And you will be called one who understands Zen.
 
 
Stone Mirror
05:41 / 12.01.03
I agree with those who have asked for more specific information on this "Elemental Crossroads" that's been repeatedly referred to.

I've had a fair bit of experience working on the astral (references available on request), and this is a new one on me, in spite of Asa's referring to it as though it were some sort of well-known destination (replete with temples, no less). Nor have I managed to turn up a reference to it.

Anyone else familiar with this?

"Is that the big Elemental Crossroads by the pedestrian mall, or the little Elemental Crossroads round the corner from the pub...?"
 
 
Stone Mirror
06:07 / 12.01.03
Well I've sent "Joe" an e-mail asking to exlpain what he's talking about...

And did you receive any substantive response, or the same sort of yawning silence the rest of us seem to be experiencing here?
 
 
Stone Mirror
06:17 / 12.01.03
Hey, I turned up a reference to an "Elemental Crossroads"!

On the USENET group rec.game.trading-cards.magic.misc.

Hm. What is this odd, pulling sensation in my leg...?
 
 
Mike
08:07 / 12.01.03
The best teacher I ever had - the teacher who repaired the damage my mind suffered under the tutelage of my previous teachers - rarely recommended books by obvious authors such as Crowley and Regardie, and only ever recommended any book if and when my mind was at a stage where that specific book would be helpful. The right book at the right time.

He never sat me down and lectured me on the occult. He sat me down and played me Jazz music, and lectured me on that instead. He got me doing odd jobs for him - making coffee, running errands, etc. He got me working for an agency doing manual labour work. While my body strengthened and my concious mind healed, my subconcious mind learnt. Then my subconcious mind taught my concious mind how to use the tricks it had learnt. I learnt more in a month of making coffee than I had learnt in my entire life previously.

That method wouldn't have worked for everybody, and I think this teacher has used a slightly different method for everyone he has taught. He doesn't give people what they want - he gives people exactly what they need. Thats the sort of teacher I recommend.
 
 
MrCoffeeBean
10:53 / 12.01.03
Whres that Joe characther? Astralplane? I realy dont like hanging out there, not my thing... so i guess im not "a real magickain" according to Joe...
Ok, i went to that astralcrossroads, didnt happen shit, except this old black dude Le... something tried to learn to play gitarr all the time, damn annoying if you ask me...

So what i wanna say is, maybe astral workings are not for everyone, if this Joething realy wanna teach people, different ways for different people... (but theres noway in hell im gonna let him teach me, his posts showed what hes about.)

The conversation on this board where everybody teach EACHOTHER are WAY more effective... All of you are better teachers than Joe by just sharing experiences. Hopefully even me might learn someone else something (maybe on NOT what to do...)
 
 
The Monkey
12:32 / 12.01.03
Joe - I'm familiar with Samkhya philosophy and Tattva in the sense of the vedic elements...is the divination form you title tattwa related?
 
 
Seth
21:16 / 12.01.03
It's a shame we can't lock threads anymore, leaving them to get naturally buried under a pile of good material.

Joe, your CV makes me afraid for your sanity (if you genuinely believe this stuff). Good luck against the Balrog, dude.
 
 
penitentvandal
19:04 / 13.01.03
Well...No show from Joe-Joe, I'm afraid. 'Tis a shame...You'd have thought someone so powerful would be able to see into the unguarded mind of li'l ol' me without a second thought.

Oh well. Guess I'll just have to continue thinking for myself, rather than abdicating personal responsibilty to some enlightened master...

'least I can spell, though.
 
 
Papess
19:28 / 13.01.03
Velvet, dude...you can hyper-spell

:tongue
 
 
Papess
19:31 / 13.01.03
Oops, I am nearly blushing.

That ":tongue" was supposed to be a smilie thing, but of course, I have totally forgotten how to do them...:eek
 
 
000
19:38 / 13.01.03
And out of interest, I have moved the pt. II for deletion.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:26 / 13.01.03
 
 
LVX23
20:27 / 13.01.03
well the guy is obviously powerful if he can generate such response from this forum.

Regarding magickal education in general, here's a nice quote from Peter Carrol:

"The genius is not something added to oneself. Rather it is a stripping away of excess to reveal the god within."
 
 
Kobol Strom
20:27 / 13.01.03
It's time to POST,Joe!!!

I just wanted to report on my experience two nights ago,I went to sleep with the intention of trying to find Joe and having a word.Seriously,I was there trying to talk to you but there was a lady with long red hair,about 35-40 years old,and she was warning me that I wasn't allowed.But the thing is I saw you and wanted to post that here.Also,you had short kind of messy/spikey/longish hair and glasses -and actually quite a thin face.Anyway -I'm probably way off but I just wanted you to know that I tried.
 
 
Mike
20:35 / 13.01.03
The way I see it, we're all trying to get to the same place, but we're all comething from different places. All aiming for the same ultimate goal, but all coming in towards it from different directions. No matter how "high a level" someone might think they are, that does not necessarily qualify them to teach everyone. Everyone is on their own path, dragging them onto your path isn't teaching them anything that they need to know, and its delaying their journey, not advancing it. If you're have the ability to see what direction someone is really heading in (not just what they're reading or talking about or going through when you meet them) and the ability to help them along their way without necessarily revealing anything to them about your own way, then teach. If the only way you can teach is to get people to follow in your footsteps please don't do it. You're leading them your way, which is right for you, but quite probably wrong for them.
 
 
Joe
05:50 / 15.01.03
Sorry I have been so long replying.
Firstly cusm thankyou for actually listening and not immediately taking the piss. I will assist you on these topics in feb I currently am preparing to go travelling around China so will not have much time to use the internet.(fromJan20-feb17.)
Kelly was not Crowleys incarnation Dee was.
I agree that Barbelith is useful and important especially works such as the transducer.
Crowley wrote his I-ching divination I meant geomancy was his favourite for personal use, sorry for my lack of clarity.
Don't delete time to learn II it has potential.
I want to merely help peoples spiritual evolution not create followers, I have studied many different forms of magick so will use appropriate threads for appropriate people and make more generalised comments here. I know everyone comes from a different path but learning is what we all seek here.
I will start a thread on astral travel soon. The reason you have not heard of the crossroads in any texts is because it was created as a focus point for magick on the astral in the last 3 years. To get there use such focuses as the pentagram and meditation upon the nature of the elements, and then pull yourself in-between the 5 elements.
Yes I do use tattwa, but not exclusively.
Look at pt.II for my comments on the year.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
06:16 / 15.01.03
To get there use such focuses as the pentagram and meditation upon the nature of the elements, and then pull yourself in-between the 5 elements.

Seriously Joe, can you give us more detailed instructions. Maybe in a rubric form so that people can follow step by step the procedure to pull yourself in-between. You could even include a specific meditation on a foci if you think that would help. Something so that even people of a lower skill-level could learn how.

If you want you could post it to the learn 2 thread so that more people will actually see it.
 
  

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