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Underground > Creation >

Mafia - a game of paranoia

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No star here laces

13:59 / 16.01.03

Also, just sayin likes, but strikes me the thing to do if yer mafia is to...

No wait, that'd be kibitzing.

14:29 / 16.01.03

After this game is over, we can discuss things like the proper ratio of villagers/mafia/detectives. It works differently on the InterWebNet than in meatspace, methinks.

I would have rather had more villagers this go-round, but not too many people expressed interest until we had already started playing.

14:43 / 16.01.03

I don't think the game supposed to be fair -- it's intentionally weighted toward the mafia. The mafia are supposed to win, and you're supposed to learn that secrecy and mistrust only benefit the mafia.

No star here laces

14:54 / 16.01.03

Dunno - in real life it'll be much harder for the mafia not to give themselves away. REmember they have to communicate somehow without talking while all the others have their eyes shut, and the villagers can look for clues in eye contact and body language. It's just that online the villagers need more help...

15:24 / 16.01.03

I like that there's this meta thread where the players have access to commentary about a game in progress -- it's like the Mets have ESPN on in the dugout or something.

There seems to be a little controversy over Todd giving out my clues after my death. Can we discuss this now, or do we need to wait until the game is done?

Whisky Priestess

15:47 / 16.01.03

I only hadn't realised that this was in the original rules - obviously I ain't complaining, and I think your clues have given the villagers a much-needed edge over the mafia by removing two non-mafia from the pool of people to lynch and shortening the odds of lynching a mafioso.

I just really, really hope I'm right about grant. It must be fascinating to play this game as a Mafioso or Detective where, effectively, you are not working blind. The problem is, as always, knowing who to trust when the two most likely suspects are flinging accusations at each other - perhaps we should look at their allies.

Whisky Priestess

15:50 / 16.01.03

Referring to what Byron said about the mafia forming a voting bloc and tying the vote, there must be some kind of provision in the rules for this, surely? Doesn't Mayor Todd get a casting vote? And shouldn't he be on the side of the Villagers?

I can't remember if the Mayor even knows what everyone is - think so though. Off to consult the rules.

Whisky Priestess

15:59 / 16.01.03

Point of order:
When a detective asks the Mayor a question, is it couched in the form:

Is X Mafia?

or in the form

What is X?

i.e. can the Detectives find out from the Mayor who the other Detectives are, or are they just told that X "is mafia" or "is not mafia"

16:07 / 16.01.03

The mayor knows all and doesn't get a vote -- "mayor" is Toddsylvanian for "referee".

My move wasn't explicitly in the rules, and you aren't the only one who was puzzled by it. Lionheart expressed some doubt inthread and at least one person commented privately. I'm harping on it because I'm the one who made it. I knew what was coming and prepared for it -- I wrote the letter to be read upon my death & convinced Todd to release it.

The detectives can only find out whether someone is mafia or not. It's possible that you or bio k9 is the other detective.

16:27 / 16.01.03

I'd really like to know what non-players think of the game thus far. What're the odds on, say, Duncan's innocence right now?

16:28 / 16.01.03

In one of the variants I played, there was only one detective and one doctor. The ability of the doctor was to declare that he was going to protect somebody, making them invulnerable for one turn. This might get unwieldy however, as the doctor player could technically elect to constantly protect him or herself, thus leaving everyone else to their death.

16:44 / 16.01.03

The doctor idea is very interesting, Tez....I like it, but I'd leave that up for the next Mayor to implement

Other points -

I think the idea of a "meta-thread" is actually a bad one, especially for participants - they should be IN the game, not outside of it. After this game is over, however, some fine-tuning of the rules is in order, certainly. Remember that I was adapting a live game that takes place over hours to a net game that takes place over...weeks? I'm of the opinion that the Net game gives the mafia a much greater advantage than the live game. It's a lot easier to type with a poker face than it is to baldly lie to a live audience.

I know who everyone is, making me uniquely UNsuited to tell how the game is progressing....

The questions are couched as "Is X Mafia?" If x isn't mafia, I haven't told the detectives if the person they're asking about is a detective or not. I think revealing that would severely unbalance the game.

As Byron says, if the village doesn't eliminate a mafia this round, the game is over. I can't break ties, as that wouldn't be fair at all....

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

17:40 / 22.01.03

heh, you have it easy todd. I am trying to run a game in the forums on my small site. Problem iss most of the players are my co workers and I have 1 or 2 villiagers who dont understand that alliances with the mafia are impossible. the 1st 2 days were me trying to convince most of the players that I cant be killed.

18:16 / 22.01.03

For the next round, keeping an odd number of villagers for lynching votes would be a good idea.

Elijah, Freelance Rabbi

18:39 / 22.01.03

start odd and the voting stays odd thanks to the mafia killing 1 per night. good idea

22:35 / 22.01.03

Grant, I had that idea in my mind when I had the initial roster of villagers. Unfortunately, I forgot it when I replaced those would couldn't play - I only replaced two out of three. It's certainly put a damper on the game now....which reminds me, I have to PM Lionheart.

22:38 / 23.01.03

I've only glanced over the game in the most cursory manner... but, wow: when I've played it in the flesh, I figured that delivery, body language, and so forth was just as important as trying to logic/outlogic everyone else. And you're all like, "Those are ancient meat customs, Granddad--if you can't get with the 21st century at least visit the 20th."

I.e., I'm impressed!

22:48 / 23.01.03

PS - has "I'm not Mafia" entered your normal conversations yet?

12:16 / 24.01.03

Well, not *mine*.

Muhahahaha!

Whisky Priestess

14:14 / 24.01.03

Ha! No, I don't claim to all and sundry that I'm not Mafia. But I have been wandering around for the last few days basking in the knowledge that I'm just a simple villager and everyone knows it. Though why Qalyn ever thought poor little me was a mafioso I've no idea.

This game was definitely fun (most exciting bit was the Sax/Grant vote: the future of the village hung in the balance!) but there does need to be some kind of vote deadine ... also, I'm sure the fact that we were not given any physiological/behavioural clues to act on was part of the reason we were so slow to root out our first mafioso - and even then it was a very near thing.

Nice to be able to apply our Agatha Christie skills of Poirot-style logic to the game though - that was definitely what I found most fun about it. That and the various picturesque deaths the villagers were subjected to. Interesting too that, although it took ages for us to bag grant, as soon as we got him the whole network crumbled. Shouldn't have been so keen to protect Lionheart ...

Would it be possible to try a variant of the game where there was only one Detective but the Doctor replaced the second detective? Neither would have to declare themselves, but if they worked together it could make the gameplay interesting.

14:16 / 24.01.03

"Freedom, high day, freedom!"

This would be a good time to be able to lock threads, because Whiskey's Whoops. Too late. Nice to know I was right though. is the perfect ending to the game thread.

Mein Gott, I really thought that Lionheart was innocent.

Whisky Priestess

14:31 / 24.01.03

Just found this, looking over the accusations on page 6:

(I said)
"Do you know, in the course of this I've managed to pretty much convince myself that Sax is (as he implies) the second detective and that the three Mafia are grant, Lionheart and Paleface."

God damn I'm good! I think I deserve some sort of kindergarten-style gold star. Or at least a sweetie.

14:41 / 24.01.03

Yeah, I was rooting for the family to take out Whiskey. That way, it could well have been Duncan getting lynched, either Pers or Sax getting whacked the next night and daytime showdown between the survivor and Lionheart... resolved, presumably, by nightfall.

I would have been a lot more miserable at this IRL. And I jumped the gun a little on pretending to be a detective (sorry again, familia).
Looking back, though, I think it behooves the mafia most to *keep the detectives alive*... in PMs, Qalyn was very nearly convinced that I was the other detective, and if he never thought to ask about me while the family kept whacking villagers, doubt and distrust would easily come to the forefront. (Not that they didn't already, but still.) Any certainties had to be removed by the mafia, and all the certainties came from dead detectives.

Online, I noticed that *anyone* who tried to shape public opinion came under suspicion. Even those who merely appeared to be trying to sway suspicions immediately got eyed over. I'm sure IRL, a lot more of the accusations would have depended on someone looking shifty or stammering or holding eye contact a little to long with a fellow player. On the other hand, people online seemed to assume that every vote and every move was done logically. When it actually wasn't, I'm pretty sure. Especially early on in the game.

Also, in the real-life version, I'm really curious how the mafia are able to deliberate over their victims. Seems like everyone would notice a group of three people who went off together for a bit every round. Whereas our group emails got downright longwinded, sometimes.

Anyway, I think I'd be up for another game. Once I say a few more Hail Marys....

14:47 / 24.01.03

Just found this, looking over the accusations on page 6:

(I said)
"Do you know, in the course of this I've managed to pretty much convince myself that Sax is (as he implies) the second detective and that the three Mafia are grant, Lionheart and Paleface."

God damn I'm good! I think I deserve some sort of kindergarten-style gold star. Or at least a sweetie.

Don't think it went unnoticed.
Also, the suspicion that landed on Paleface took me totally by surprise. In our last three-way conference, the mafia was pretty sure I'd screwed Lionheart and it was up to Al "Paleface" Capone to avenge his execution.

Oh, and I'd also like to thank Todd for his execution of the executions. Give the man a seed of an idea, and he turns it into masterfully funny fruit.

14:54 / 24.01.03

But you know how that happened, we were playing a strategy of proving the innocent. Sax asked about Paleface because we thought that he was innocent.

Qalyn was right, too. The best way for the villagers to win is to trust each other and cooperate. I guess there are two games that you could play --Cooperate and Defect, the latter being the last game. I actually worked out the two opening moves in Cooperate... but it's more fun for the next players to figure things out themselves, isn't it?

14:57 / 24.01.03

That was fun, if time-consuming. I'll second what grant said: there were some mafia-mailing-frenzies at points.

My favourite line was "either that or Duncan's the most stupid villager in the world" which I was trying to play off so much. At one point, I had it reckoned that if I sacrificed grant... it was just about doable as long as we killed a safe target in the night and contrived to have Duncan lynched. Of course, the next day, everyone started pointing at me and it all went titsup.

Next game? Bigger. Way more villagers. The cull at the beginning still wasn't quite random enough. We were pretty soon getting to the "hell, there are ten of us of whom five are detectives and mafia" and it felt small. Also, the numbers thing bollocksed up, but that's no-one's fault.

But it's fun, and I did spend one afternoon trying to explain to friends why my head hurt from all the "if x then y" thinking I'd been doing and emailing. Ouch.

Yeah. You try playing mafia, folks. It's not easy

(Oh - I also love the pm I got from Iszabelle in the endgame, spectating, who said she reckoned I wasn't mafia. I declined to reply. But appreciated the sympathy).

15:03 / 24.01.03

I'm very, very busy at work today, so I can't give this thread as much attention as I want to...

I just want to say -

1)Thanks grant, for the compliment!

2)I was completely convinced that the Mafia would get through the entire game unscathed, until the Sax/grant vote. In fact, I thought everyone would lynch Persephone that vote, so what do I know?

3)I don't know a practical way of putting a time limit on votes - should non-votes be summarily killed? Should votes be initially by PM, and then revealed to me? There probably should be some sort of way voting is structured, some random order, as to not give the Mafia the advantage of voting last each round (as did happen).

4.) The detective thing - I'm now hedging against my earlier opinion, and leaning towards not mayorally revealing what a dead detective knows. Detective status of a dead villager, however, should be revealed, and people can base opinions from there. As to what happens to info the detective receives on the night he/she is whacked, well...I'm not sure how that should work. ideas?

5.) Doctor idea is very interesting - I think it would work if no one knew who the doctor was, and s/he protected someone secretly at night.

6.) I'd love for another online game to happen, but I want to play this time! Anyone up for being Mayor?

15:36 / 24.01.03

*dryly*

Speaking of PMs, I got one from Qalyn long after he was dead. Seriously, I think that it has to be understood that spectators cannot send PMs to players. I also got a PM from iszabelle, and I totally lost my shit... I'm probably way too high-strung for this game to begin with, so maybe it's just me. But I was not in my own head for a time...

Re: detectives, I would propose that the detectives be allowed to leave their knowledge if they are killed by the Mafia. If lynched by the village, they take their knowledge to the grave. This specifically raises the stakes for both sides & focuses the objective, say, for the Mafia, on getting the villagers to kill their own hopes. And vice versa. But mainly I'm saying this because, online, the villagers don't have a chance otherwise. Or that's how it seems to me.

15:42 / 24.01.03

I should add, no hard feelings at all to iszabelle. You are not responsible for my being a raving maniac!

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

16:08 / 24.01.03

if there's another game, count me in. I make a damn good pudding.

16:20 / 24.01.03

Online, I noticed that *anyone* who tried to shape public opinion came under suspicion. Even those who merely appeared to be trying to sway suspicions immediately got eyed over.

It happens IRL too. If you're too quiet, you're obviously Mafia. If you're too loud, you're obviously Mafia. Too much stuttering and stammering, not enough stuttering and stammering--both = Mafia.

In other words, most of the games I've played in are all about getting past the tendency to out-Vizzini yourselves, and try to ferret out what is really important. "What is really important" changes game to game though; i.e., if two brothers are playing, does Brother 1 dying the first night mean Brother 2 is totally Mafia, or does it mean that someone else is trying to pin it on Brother 2? Depends on the folks involved.

Also, in the real-life version, I'm really curious how the mafia are able to deliberate over their victims. Seems like everyone would notice a group of three people who went off together for a bit every round.

It goes like this: when night falls, everyone closes their eyes. The referee/mayor says, "Detective, open your eyes." The detective points at someone; the mayor nods if they're Mafia. "Detective, close your eyes; Mafia, open your eyes." They point at someone; there may be a silent flurry of facial expressions, eyebrow waggles, etc., until finally they're pointing at the same person. (Just as often, they immediately point at the same person.) Then everyone opens their eyes and we find out who got whacked.

Now, in the RL games I've played, there was no information given about dead players--the mayor keeps doing the detective round even if the detective has been whacked or lynched, there were no room searches revealing detectivehood, Familyhood, or innocent-victimhood. You know whether you've won or lost based on whether you're still playing. (Oh, and I don't think I've ever played a game with more than one detective, but the number of Mafiosi has changed based on number of players.)

Incidentally, when I was reading the thread, by page 4 I'da been calling Persephone "Persephoni, the Godmother"--shows what I know. I was amazed she survived the line about having demanded to be a villager to see how the game was played

17:41 / 24.01.03

if there's another game, count me in. I make a damn good pudding

My pudding is less impressive, but I'm up for another round regardless...

18:50 / 24.01.03

That reminds me - what the heck was up with the PMs made public between K9 and Persephone?

I know *I* wasn't behind that, and I don't *think* any of the other mafia were....

Tentatively, I'd be willing to be Mayor for a second round.

, I would propose that the detectives be allowed to leave their knowledge if they are killed by the Mafia. If lynched by the village, they take their knowledge to the grave.

This sounds like good advice. I don't think randomizing the voting order would work, because it'd throw off either side's calculations too much. And killing off those who don't vote would also likely unbalance the game.

I'm probably way too high-strung for this game to begin with, so maybe it's just me. But I was not in my own head for a time...

Heh. From the outset, I was convinced you were playing the coldest, most logical game of anyone. In fact, if I didn't know better, I'd *totally* think you were cosa nostra. I hope you're not bearing *too* many psychic scars!

20:41 / 24.01.03

Todd, I second grant's praise -- you were dreamy!

Yeah, I was totally convinced that Persephone was a baddie because she kept going apeshit on people for no reason, which is why I didn't waste my questions on her. I was trying to cross off innocents, not the other way around. Whoops!

Grant, you didn't have me that fooled. I was still maintaining your theoretical guilt and my strategy didn't require that I know one way or the other. After I died I kept thinking, 'Why would he risk incriminating other mafia this way?' so I figured you must be on the up&up.

Seriously, I think that it has to be understood that spectators cannot send PMs to players.

Why? First off, I was responding to a comment you made about me. Second, I didn't give you any inside info (not that I had any at that point). I ran thru scenarios w/WP after I was dead, too. It was just chatter and brainstorming. Um, no hard feeling to iszabelle, but what about me? I hope not, I certainly didn't mean to cause any. I'm very insecure, y'know.

The doctor's a cool idea and I think you could have a doctor plus 2 detectives if you had more villagers -- but I think you need to keep the same ratio of mafia to villagers.

I don't see why you need everyone to vote in the lynching -- why can't people just abstain? I think if you order the vote too much you'll lose a lot of the drama.

As far as revealing the detective's dying info, I dunno. It seems reasonable to allow the full use of their powers, since those powers are so limited to begin with. If they could arrest mafia -- ie remove players from the game as the mafia can -- I'd agree with y'all. Although Persephone's compromise isn't bad.

I'd play again, and I'd be mayor, but I think we should take a break.

21:40 / 24.01.03

Um, no hard feeling to iszabelle, but what about me? I hope not, I certainly didn't mean to cause any. I'm very insecure, y'know.

Silly Qalyn, no hard feelings to you. Although I must say, it couldn't have been scarier if you'd sent me a snake in the mail. Was I the only one who was this paranoid? God, I shot out of the office like a bat out of hell and slam-dived into the bed hysterically whispering something like QalynsentmeaPMhe'ssupposedtobedead howcanhesendmeamessage!? Which was not appreciated by the occupant of the bed at five-thirty in the morning...

I mean, I don't know... it seems to me that part of the point of the game is to put players under psychological duress, and that affects their decision-making processes. People who aren't in the game aren't under the same pressure. So I think it's not fair to the mafia for the players to get help from non-hysterical spectators. And another thing is that you had a key part of the game figured out; and if I'd been mafia, I'd want you silenced just for that reason. After all I think it's a valid strategy to pick off the smarter villagers at the outset, the better to prey on the silly and the weak...

...and also, I think that we should perhaps think about containing this game and not involving the entire board. This game is a little poisonous, and that's not something that I'd casually spread around.

Which reminds me...

what the heck was up with the PMs made public between K9 and Persephone?

I know *I* wasn't behind that, and I don't *think* any of the other mafia were....

I would really appreciate if the person who did this would come forward. It's okay, I won't be mad. It's just that I'm not comfortable not knowing this; and if I could just be told how this went down, I could put my mind to rest. Thanks.

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