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Real doll

 
  

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lord henry strikes back
12:28 / 08.03.05
There seems to be a false opposition being created here, that of Real Doll vs relationship. To me that doesn't make any more sense than to talk about masturbation vs relationship. A Real Doll will not replace the real partner because it does not fit into the same area of human life.

I see the Real Doll as just another example of a new technology being used for physical gratification. It will, as all new things do, appear odd for a while, but I'm sure the idea of an artificial motorised penis was greated with a few confused looks to begin with as well.
 
 
hoatzin
09:38 / 11.03.05
Has anyone read the short story 'Gogol's Wife' by Tomasso Landolfi? Leaving aside the author's purpose in writing the story, which he presented as a true chapter of a biography of Gogol, Gogol has an anatomically correct 'balloon wife' who [or that] he eventually destroys, believing her [it] to have been unfaithful. Landolfi describesthe doll's remains being thrown into the fire, with another tiny rubber doll....... Are Realdoll owners
likely to develop 'relationships' with their dolls, or is the attraction exclusively sexual?
 
 
jeed
11:11 / 11.03.05
Hi, first post to the headshop, please be gentle...

I'm not sure whether there is this linear scale from masturbation, to 'the anatomically correct motorised penis', to the realdoll, I think the realdoll is a whole new tangent. I can't help seeing the realdoll as a replacement for a human partner, in a way that even the surprised-looking inflatable ones so beloved of hen parties and the like aren't.

In the context of a relationship>
I'm not sure it could be argued that masturbation and toys ever take the place of a human partner in sexual relationships, whereas I feel the realdoll could. I don't think anyone would be overly perturbed if a partner expressed a willingness to use toys or cracked off a sneaky one, but I'd feel that if someone expressed a desire to use a realdoll, then that'd be flagging signals that things were not well. I realise that doesn't apply to everyone, but i'd take issue with lord henry's comment above that relationship:realdoll isn't mutually exclusive. A straw poll over the last couple of days with various folks seems to indicate it would be for the majority of people.

Outside a relationship>
Far be it from me to cast aspersions on what people do in private, but there's a certain uneasiness i feel about this. I'd view someone using an adult realdoll as an opting-out of the relationship thing, and due to the cost, opting out in a very definite way. I think I also see that the use of one long-term would be damaging, would foster a disregard for the other person in any future sexual relations (along the lines of the quotes from de Sade above), and however fulfilling the act at the time, the aftermath/comedown may produce feelings of insecurity and the like that i feel could actually increase the chances of a sexual offence in those predisposed to such acts, or at least a degree of guilt and loneliness in those that aren't.

I know it could be argued that it might stop sexual offenders, and i can see the rationale that if someone can bang away at a silicon representation of their 'target' then it might just possibly give enough of an outlet. But my gut instinct is i'm not sure it would stop abusers, rapists or the like from offending. From what I've read, I understand that there is usually an evolution of a particular sexual deviance over time: (simplified) from interest, to definite fantasies, then to aborted or committed acts. I'm not sure the realdoll, of say a child, would act as a dead end to these impulses, but would at best delay the final acts, or at worst allow, if you will, a refinement of what that final act would be.

And I think the point made above, of the utter mindfuck that would ensue if you find out someone was bumping uglies with a silicone you is valid. I read an exchange between a paedophile and a journalist (a while ago, and I'll try and find the reference), where the paedophile stated he used non-sexual pictures of children from clothes catalogues to masturbate to, and this was acceptable in his view as no child was harmed during the act. The journalist (who was a father) took issue, in that he found the very idea of a child's image being used for that purpose abhorrent, and I think this idea transfers to the discussion about the dolls. It would be based on a particular child, and that, along with the the idea that creating a sexualised representation of a child further sexualises children themselves, is the thing that gives me the creeps.

So...I guess i'd be ok with you having that tentacled furry lenin doll, that wouldn't creep me as its not based on anything real, I wouldn't feel for the safety of the real tentacled furry lenins, and therefore I don't see why there'd be a case for banning the use. But a child doll? I can't see a benefit to making them legal, and can envisage a number of reasons not to.

I also admit, that my distaste for anyone arguing to be allowed to have sex with a child or representation thereof is colouring my response somewhat. I feel you have to take into account the intent of the act.
 
 
Olulabelle
12:27 / 11.03.05
Are Realdoll owners likely to develop 'relationships' with their dolls, or is the attraction exclusively sexual?

Children develop serious emotional relationships with their dolls or soft toys regardless of the fact that the object does not respond to the love and attention it gets, so I think human beings clearly have the ability to love or care for an inanimate object as if it were a real living thing, it's inherent and deep-rooted in our Psyche.

Most of us grow out of that as we get older, and although as adults we all still have a fondness and a sense of emotion for our old toys it's possibly due to the sentimentality of remembering ourselves as children.

But if as children we can truly love 'things' then I suppose it's possible that adults can also develop serious emotional relationships with their 'real dolls'.
 
 
lord henry strikes back
14:09 / 11.03.05
I think we are getting a bit tied up in the fact that a Real Doll is a lump of plastic that looks like a person. Just for comparison I thought I would include a link to the fuck machine website (hope that link works). For those of you that are not familier with the product, fuck machines are to dildos as five speed, multi-bladed food processor is to a butter knife. Like a Real Doll they are expencive, some go for $2,000, and like a Real Doll they are not something you are likely you slip into polite conversation with your aged aunt. Unlike a Real Doll they have the size and look of a Fiat Uno engine block and I think it is only for this reason that they will not be objected to.

The fact is that all of this: Real Doll, Fuck Machines, porn, dildos, etc, is not going to replace a relationship. It won't challenge your idea, introduce you to new authors, greet you with a simle when you wake them up with a hot cup of coffee, or make you big vats of chicken soup when you're ill. Sex is a valuable part of many relationships, but it is only a part. A relationship is a meeting of minds, not just the stuffing of body parts, or is that just me?
 
 
lord henry strikes back
14:11 / 11.03.05
Bugger, the link didn't work. Here's the url for those of you that are interested:

http://www.extremerestraints.com/stat/fucking_machine_fuck_machines.html
 
 
jeed
18:06 / 11.03.05
I understand what you're saying, and i agree that porn/dildos/theincrediblerampagingarsereamer aren't going to replace a relationship for most people. But i really feel that the realdoll is different to the others above, for precisely the reasons that it can replace a relationship for some people (as seen on some of the sites referenced previously), that it has an inherent emotional charge by the dint of it being so realistic (as opposed to the engine block), and the fact that it does open up a possibility where people could fetishise these objects in a way not previously seen with other stuff like dildos or porn.
 
 
jeed
18:11 / 11.03.05
And yep, totally agree, for most people relationships are vastly more than sexual, but I think it's the folks who for one reason or another don't think that or haven't had the opportunity to test it, that are more likely to buy a realdoll.
 
 
hoatzin
07:48 / 12.03.05
The Real doll is is different from engine blocks, dildos and the many masturbatory aids around simply because it does represent a person. Of course it would be difficult to form a relationship with any of these objects, but as we all know there is a very definite tendency in some people to view people as sex objects; so maybe it would not be hard to view a sex object as a person. Agreed, it will not make you coffee or comfort you when ill, but neither will it nag, answer back, or eye up other prospective mates. It is completely submissive and will never disagree with you.
Has anyone read that story? I know it sounds daft but the actual story has a very good description of how someone can develop obsessive love for an object.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:08 / 12.03.05
Surely we form relationships with all objects around us, a masochistic relationshiop with our cars/computers/bikes which are always breaking down on us, our iPods/discmans and the lovely, lovely music therein, etc...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
08:45 / 12.03.05
Zeta; It was about time somebody came out and said it, the truth, as far as relationships go.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
05:00 / 29.03.05
the fact that it does open up a possibility where people could fetishise these objects in a way not previously seen with other stuff like dildos or porn.

Some interesting assumptions about desire are being made on this thread. One assumption is that the more 'realistic' a representation or a symbolic object, the closer and more powerfully related to, or imbricated in, the "original" it is. In one direction, this takes us right back to the old chestnut about "does porn cause sexual abuse" or "do computer games cause violence?" Children, or 'the child,' is assigned a very particular role in this scenario where the representation impacts on the "real". I'm not talking about pornography featuring children here, because this would involve real kids being asked to perform sexual activities -- not okay. I'm talking about the squeamishness that attends the possibility of anyone wanking over photos of kids. If it's okay to wank over an adult's photograph, why does the childishness of the representation make it not okay? If it's the 'realness' of the representation that is at issue, does this mean that symbolically, children are regarded as being "more real" than adults? What I'm arguing here is that this problem of differences between kiddy porn and images of children has nearly nothing to do with the material, causative possibilities of "images of children" or representqations in general. It's all to do with the meanings people invest in representations. Children, here, represent vulnerability and, in a weird way, "realness" -- honesty, transparency. (Or innocence.) Which is why the representations of them must be guarded against sexuality, adultness and desire.

In a different direction, the fears that a person's relationship with a realdoll would be pathological because the doll would be far "more" real than other sextoys also manage to miss humans (and others') creative tendencies to invest the quality of realness -- or at least invest real emotional and psychic attachments -- in all kinds of objects no matter what they're made of or how real they look. For example, I know many dildo and strapped-on dick wearers whose investment in the piece of rubber or silicon (or condom filled with birdseed) is about extending and supplementing their own physical bodies and psychical experience of a body. This is not a fetish; it's like having a phantom limb reattached for a limited time. If you assume that the only uses of the realdoll would be for "bad men" to remake the image of an ex, or a celebrity, you miss the point: identifications and desires are pretty complex and people almost always find more creative uses for things than it says on the packet.
 
 
ibis the being
13:19 / 31.03.05
Agreed, it will not make you coffee or comfort you when ill, but neither will it nag, answer back, or eye up other prospective mates. It is completely submissive...

Forgive me if this comes from a too personal experience of sex, but even on the purely sexual level, wouldn't the Real Doll appeal to a pretty narrow segment of the population? I'm not talking about the curiosity/novelty factor - I'm sure plenty of people would be interested in trying it out - but more the people who would use it long term, devotedly, and perhaps to the point of excluding human relationships. It seems to me that having a masturbation tool that happens to have a realistic body attached is really not qualitatively different from a dildo or faux-vagina toy. The Real Doll doesn't respond physically. It doesn't show pleasure (even fake pleasure) or do anything back to you. It's still just a sex toy - it's still just masturbation. I don't see how that in any way approaches replacing actual sex for the average person, when I'm pretty sure the enjoyment of sex for most people has to do with the participation of a living, responding, acting human being. In fact, sex with a person who just lies there - no matter how good-looking they are or how long we've crushed on them - is bad sex for most of us.

That said, perhaps the fact that it would appeal almost exclusively to people who'd prefer a totally submissive & motionless sex partner is troublesome on its own.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:41 / 31.03.05
Well, being submissive and being motionless are significantly different things...

One assumption is that the more 'realistic' a representation or a symbolic object, the closer and more powerfully related to, or imbricated in, the "original" it is.

Disco is wise. For example, my relationship with Alyx Vance is probably about as involved and loving as my former relationship with Anna Navarre. Neither of these are _really_ that much like women - they are small, and their dimensionality is limited to a specific environment. Buit they move and speak, and have human voices. Does that make them more or less "real" than a realdoll? It's tricky...
 
 
hoatzin
22:41 / 31.03.05
I have been considering my own reaction to the Realdoll, which was initially incredulous mirth, and have decided that what I am objecting to on a personal level is the association of 'masturbation' and 'partner'. I have no innate objection at all to the many strange objects marketed as masturbatory aids because they are simply objects. I think Ibis is right,and it is the idea of someone actively preferring a motionless and inactive partner that's been disturbing me. It may also be a control issue; no doubt the Realdoll will develop the ability to 'respond' as technology proceeds,but will the option of a negative response ever be offered?
 
  

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