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Real doll

 
  

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Doll Soup
08:07 / 15.02.02
Something I've been musing on over the past couple of days is www.realdoll.com. A real doll is an expensive, lifesized, silicon sex-doll - they come in male and female forms.

While the idea of the dolls is a little creepy, I can't help finding the male doll, Charlie, attractive from certain angles. Given the choice, I'd rather have sex with one of them than a prostitute (although both options are pretty low on my list of to-dos).

Does the real-doll has ramifications for the future of sexuality? Will it be eventually possible to buy a real doll with the face of a celebrity, or someone who you are in love with but will never have sex with you? Will child-sized dolls be available to paedophiles, enabling them to enact fantasises without hurting real children? Or will such things be as illegal as child-porn? Or is a representation of a child who never existed (such as a drawing or a real doll) equally as criminal as possessing real child porn? Will sadists be able to enact violent rape fantasies on the dolls? The spiel at the website suggests that this is already happening - as the site answers questions based around what sort of stress or punishment the dolls can take without falling to bits.

The site also suggests that in the future the dolls will become more like robots - echoing the spectre of the Stepford Wives.

If we have the ability to design our own ideal partners, what effect will this have on society and on our conceptions of sexuality?
 
 
Bear
08:27 / 15.02.02
I remebering watching a documentary about this company last year, and it does bring up some interesting issues, none of which I'll talk about because I tend to stay out of the head shop but I'd like to see what others think....

The whole Celeb thing is an interesting point, who'd be the first celeb to sue to due a doll resembling their likeness?
 
 
Tom Coates
08:29 / 15.02.02
More to the point, who'd be the first celebrity (particularly male celebrity) to sell the rights to their likeness. Harrison Ford doll, here I come...
 
 
Trijhaos
08:53 / 15.02.02
If its anatomically correct and everything, I think a real doll could be a great learning tool in health and anatomy classes.

Of course, if you do buy a real doll don't dress it up like a person, take pictures of it, and put those pictures up on a website. Nobody wants to see pictures of "Sex Me Up Barbie". I stumbled across a site that did just this and I about died laughing. The poor man had even given the doll a name and history.
 
 
Doll Soup
08:53 / 15.02.02
Yes, making a website/history about your sex toy is funny (do you still have the website?). It's also a bit sad.

Humans have a long history of getting involved with inaminate objects. What about those guys who make websites with photos of every single car they've owned since 1973 or something like that. The term "fetish" can also be applied to objects like stockings, shoes etc.

Does the real-doll act as a kind of bridge between fetish-sex and sex between humans. It's an object, yet it looks like a human.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
08:53 / 15.02.02
Does the real-doll has ramifications for the future of sexuality? <snip>

If we have the ability to design our own ideal partners, what effect will this have on society and on our conceptions of sexuality?


Sorry about the snip, but... so many things to think about there - too many for my poor brain to cope with at once. I suppose the thing that strikes me immediately about the above questions is that 'Real Dolls' or sexbots would seem to be a sympton of the end of the idea that sex and emotion are intimately connected. I suppose one could experience emotion during an encounter with a real doll, but I am unsure what the absence of an emotional response from the doll would mean. Of course in many cases sex and reciprocal emotion (whatever those emotions may be) are intimately connected - I suppose what I'm trying to say is that this seems to indicate that they don't *have* to be. I have a vision at this point of a human society in which human relationships are beginning to exist outside a sexualised context... (which sounds quite attractive to me).

Plus, you could design all sorts of things - blue aliens etc.
 
 
Trijhaos
08:53 / 15.02.02
The site that had the real doll all dressed up as a real person is gone. It was a geocities page so I can't say I'm surprised.

This site is written from the view of a real doll.
 
 
mondo a-go-go
11:43 / 15.02.02
i saw a site recently that had something akin to a realdoll, though not a realdoll, being used in training medical/science students. was interesting, but damnit, i can't remember where it is or where i found it.
 
 
Tom Coates
12:07 / 15.02.02
This thread is fascinating me. But a quick question - are we talking about technologies of sex and if so would the thread fit better in the Laboratory?
 
 
No star here laces
12:58 / 15.02.02
Originally posted by Kit-Cat Club: I have a vision at this point of a human society in which human relationships are beginning to exist outside a sexualised context... (which sounds quite attractive to me).

I find this a deeply worrying statement. I'd think that there comes a certain level of intimacy that demands some kind of sexual or sexualised contact.

Personally I find the idea of a future in which there are sexual relationships devoid of emotional content not in the least bit disturbing. But the idea that all emotional relationships would be devoid of sexual contact is absolutely terrifying. The point of sex between emotionally bonded partners is to reach a point of overlapping of self, where the boundaries dissolve, what Fromm reckons is the universal human driver behind conformity, creativity and also abusive relationships. Removing this possibility from the realm of interpersonal relationships would remove any kind of hope from the world.

Question - do sexual relationships devoid of emotion (i.e. sexual relationships with inanimate objects) need to lead to emotional relationships devoid of sex?

I'd say no - I have an emotionless relationship with fantasy/pornography and don't feel it affects my relationships with partners (although they might say differently)...
 
 
ciarconn
13:00 / 15.02.02
I would make some questions:

What does this mena on the concept of self?
How does this change the concept of couple Relationship?
What does it imply on the concepts of Sexuality?
How is sexuality evolving?
Is this a consequence of sicknesses like AIDS and/or moral/sexual repression?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
13:10 / 15.02.02
Sidetrack: some medical and other stuff:

This is a mannequin/mannequin history site.
A story on a nasal medical simulator.

This mob make other dolls (dig the sparring ones), but also CPR and med dolls. Though they're not as detailed as some of these.

Kooky - is this the one you were thinking of?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:15 / 15.02.02
the idea that all emotional relationships would be devoid of sexual contact is absolutely terrifying.

This isn't quite what I was getting at - failed to express myself properly. I was trying to say that I think that practically all human relationships (whether they are friendships, acquaintanceships, whatever) exist in a sexualised social context which dictates to some extent the dynamics of those relationships. And that, were real dolls or sexbots to become socially acceptable, this might help humans to construct relationships in a context that wasn't wholly sexualised... which was based *more* on an emotional level, not solely.
 
 
kid coagulant
13:26 / 15.02.02
Just finished reading Ray Kurzweil's 'Age of Spiritual Machines', and he addresses the future of sexuality to some extent. Paraphrasing here, but he envisions a world where we can interact and have sex w/ artificial intelligences, or w/ other humans, remotely, w/out actual physical contact. He doesn't really address how this will affect us socially, but it's fascinating stuff. Check out the website (www.kurzweilai.net).
 
 
mondo a-go-go
14:10 / 15.02.02
rothkoid: yeah. different article, same topic.
 
 
w1rebaby
14:23 / 15.02.02
I was trying to say that I think that practically all human relationships (whether they are friendships, acquaintanceships, whatever) exist in a sexualised social context which dictates to some extent the dynamics of those relationships. And that, were real dolls or sexbots to become socially acceptable, this might help humans to construct relationships in a context that wasn't wholly sexualised... which was based *more* on an emotional level, not solely.

I still find this disturbing to an extent.

The same issue that I have with a lot of transhumanist thought comes up here as well. We have to, at some point, determine how far we want our social relationships to deviate from where they are at the moment, and what this means in a wider context.

As you point out, a vast amount of human social behaviour is sexualised or sexually motivated. However, how deep do these drives really go? Is it actually possible for humans to divorce sex from their relationships with each other without drugs and brain surgery?

Is it a worthwhile goal? There's nothing intrinsically preferable or more rational about non-sexual drives. Nobody ever started a war because they were horny*, although nobody ever built a skyscraper either.

Finally, if we do construct a subculture where we interact with other humans on a non-sexual basis... where does that leave us with respect to the 99% of the world's population who don't? Because there aren't going to be any Real Doll airdrops in central Africa.

* theories about Bin Laden's motive for attacking the US because an american girl told him he had a small dick can be treated as false here, I think, though of course feelings of sexual inadequacy can contribute to the formation of a damaged personality
 
 
ciarconn
09:18 / 16.02.02
"Nobody ever started a war because they were horny..."

Helena and the war of Troy?

Ha!, I had not heard that Bin Laden's rumor
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:18 / 16.02.02
One interesting point: There are several female (and to my mind, horribly stereotypical) female doll models, and only one (boring) male doll.

What might we leatn from this? Does it suggest that male sexuality is oriented more towards the pysical than the emotional, or just that women are still shy when it comes to buying sex toys?

(Oh, and one slightly stroppy PS:
Will sadists be able to enact violent rape fantasies...

Errm, speaking as a sadist- not big on the whole "violent rape fantasy" thing.)
 
 
Tom Coates
09:18 / 16.02.02
Now I'm all interested in the identity politics of the statement "speaking as a sadist".
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:40 / 16.02.02
The questions on the Realdoll FAQ are hilarious. 'Question: Do you sell just the head or torso, or any other body part, as separate items? Question: Do you have any rejects or used models I can buy for cheap? Can I use my REALDOLL as a pool toy?'

'Will sadists be able to enact violent rape fantasies on the dolls?'

Well, rather obviously, yes. However, also speaking as a sadist, I'd much rather hurt responsive, warm human flesh than silicon. Realdolls can't cry out when you hurt them. That's more than half the fun of doing it, innit? (Oh, and like Mordant said, no violent rape fantasies for me. Unless my bottom specifically asked me to do it, and then it's not my fantasy, really, is it?)

Lyra said:

"Question - do sexual relationships devoid of emotion (i.e. sexual relationships with inanimate objects) need to lead to emotional relationships devoid of sex?"

I think it's a mistake to think that people won't or can't form lasting emotional, non-sexual attachments to plastic things. By this I don't mean fetishisation, which is a silly term anyhow, but an acknowledgement that some inanimate objects have far more meaning than their use-value. Look at childrens' relationships with dolls. Sure, perhaps one shouldn't expect the same kind of relationship you'd have with a person. But the possibilities are obvious. Silicon dolls could easily become like teddy-bears -- something to have intimacy with when you don't have a real body lying around. There might be a real 'market' for something like an android 'cuddle doll'.

Also, if we start talking about robotsex, everyone should go away and read a porn story by Pat Califia in his recent book No Mercy, about a robotic sexdoll whose (butch dyke) programmer hacked around with the code a bit, giving her slobbish sexist owner quite a surprise...
 
 
Doll Soup
20:29 / 16.02.02
Perhaps you should both take issue with the pairing of "sadist" and "violent rape fantasy" by emailing the creators of realdoll.com, which is where the phrase was first planted in my head.

Although with that said I'm aware that some sadists _do_ get off on violent rape fantasies.
 
 
Cavatina
21:24 / 16.02.02
Indeed. Reading about the dolls and how they might be damaged brings to mind close parallels with the instrumental vision of sex offered in the Marquis de Sade's Justine (1791), in both its 'philosophical' passages, and in its repetitive depictions of torture and sexually violent acts.

For de Sade the law of nature in sexual matters was for individuals simply to follow their own desires or impulses without any consideration for the needs of others. Sex was the imposition of will of an active partner on a passive, subservient sex object, this object being merely the vessel in which the active partner could satisfy himself. De Sade makes a point of excluding *entirely* any mutuality between the partners. As one of his villains, Clement puts it:

"... it is a matter of indifference to him whether that object [which serves him] is happy or unhappy, provided it be delectable to him; in truth, there is no relation at all between that object and himself." (italics mine)

The scene of today's person taking hir pleasure with hir doll seems to me to have precisely this Sadeian theatricality (albeit the doll is without real skin and nerve endings and so does not experience pain).
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:06 / 17.02.02
The thing that struck me about the Realdolls shown on the website is that they are all eeriely similar. There's little or no variation in build, the features of the dolls are standardized to fit a Western ideal regardless of their supposed ethnic group, and aside from "optional tanlines" their skin shows no variation in colour or texture. The overall impression is of a sisterhood of slack-jawed clones.

We are not looking at artificial representations of real women, but at an abstraction of the female body. They should be more shocking and they would be, if the same kind of abstraction didn't smirk down at us from every magazine cover, every advertising hoarding, every film poster. Faces and bodies, already nipped, tucked, dieted, Botoxed, shaved, tweezed and painted to better fit some ghostly notion of beauty are photographed with soft filters and cunning lighting, then the photos themselves are altered: legs lengthened, hips narrowed, skin airbrushed, eyes widened with synthetic desire.

We've been sold the Realdoll for years. I'm not surprised that someone finally got round to making one. I give it five years, max, before the Buffybot hits the shelves.

Want to know what really sent a shiver down my spine? One of the FAQs dealt with the idea of making a Realdoll skin, something that a person could actually wear so as to attain that airbrushed, characterless look that passes for beauty nowadays. Can anyone make such a suit at present? No.

Will they do it? Stupid question, really. No, the real question is, how long before every girl's beauty mantra is "cleanse, tone... and laminate"?
 
 
President
05:41 / 19.04.04
I believe www.realdoll.com is an excellent concept.Who cares! if men and/or woman buy teenage dolls of either sex to use in the privacy of there own home.This CANNOT be considered illegal,in-as-much-as; You would therefore have to make Silicon illegal Per Se.Hence the absurdity of it all.

Fact: Use of the media term Paedophile,has long passed it's use by date.Fear itself is the real harm in society.This is! and always will be! a human trait.

So what!?,if a child admirer wishes to purchase a U.S $6,000 Silicon Boy or Girl Doll for his/her own private use.You cannot legislate against Morality.Only against Immediate harm.If someone purchases a doll with the expressed purpose to 'act out' there fantasy with the said doll.Then perhaps society will see a trend downwards in 'Real Life' sexual abuse.And if so?.I fully support it!.

There is enough scaremongering in life,as it is,without persecuting every living soul with supercilious threats.

Live and let live.
 
 
Tom Coates
11:50 / 19.04.04
Well I would think it's pretty clear that there's a distinction between what can (or at least should) be legislated against and things that we should just 'live and let live'. Just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean that it's not immoral or - for that matter - pretty disgusting. Most people on this board are pretty open to alternative lifestyles and pretty liberal when it comes to unorthodox sexualities, but I think pretty much all of them would be at the very least uncomfortable with the sale (and purchase) of sex dolls designed to resemble the underage! So basically, yeah - okay - maybe it shouldn't be illegal (and I'm far from convinced about that), but I think pretty much everyone would still care and - frankly - be creeped out or horrified by it.

I'm slightly alarmed by your comments about sex dolls lowering the rate of real-life abuse as well. I mean, I've argued for a connection between being able to express your sexual desires and not engaging in non-consensual attacks, so I can kind of see where you're coming from. But I'm not sure that it's any kind of connection that would make sense from your perspective! Surely you're arguing there that people who would buy these kinds of dolls are marking themselves out as being more likely than average to either perpetrate sexual abuse on children or to have been more likely in the past, it seems slightly weird to then claim that "why should anyone care"! Frankly, if I knew of a person who undertook such practices with a doll, I'd probably distance myself from them pretty bloody quickly and consider them pretty abhorent.

I'm going to be blunt with you, I'm afraid - the subject of Paedophilia is a highly charged one and I'm trying to be reasonable because I don't know you at all and I don't know how you stumbled upon the board or what your relationship might be with these things. But to be honest, I'd rather this kind of stuff was kept well away from the board and I'm going to have to ask you to leave and refrain from posting again.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:42 / 19.04.04
Well, Tom, although President deserves to be banned for punctuation abuse alone, the fact that *you* would find it abhorrent, and that certainly I think I and an awful lot of other people would find it deeply, deeply, icky, and I would say that the jury on whether it would increase or decrease the likelihood of abuse is so far out that you would have to be certifiably bonkers to *order* one, much less *use* one, doesn't alter the issue of whether abhorrence is a valid point for legislation.

Abhorrent, literally, means things that make you bristle. That make your hair stand on end. One potential real doll client, for example, apparently sent in large numbers of photographs of his mother for a "fitting". That is certainly deeply ick, and it is the right of the real doll maker to decline the request, as I believe he did. Other requests include blue skin or bodies covered in hair. Is this equally icky, or is it so contextless, so unrooted in anything that one could actually have sex with, that it becomes simply curious.

One of the odd things about the real doll, and the idea of synthetic sex partners in general, is that they seem to be a way, in the same way that surgical technology is allowing people to become more like their self-perception, whether that self-perception has larger breasts, horns or a penis, for the physical act of sex to be separated from the limitations of biology - so, people who fantasise about making it with women or men with wings, or 60-foot tall women or men, or manga-styled catwomen or men, could with sufficient skill and enough materials create some physical representation of that act. In those terms, it is to some extent the art and to some extent the technology that is causing problems, but is it also functional to impose absolute bans on certain forms of plastic moulding as well as the technical issues and the individual tastes of creators?

To step to one side, Jake and Dinos Chapman create statues of teenaged girls with genitals transplanted onto their faces and their limbs fused together. As far as I know, they made them themselves. But if they had had the idea but not the technical ability, as Damien Hirst did for "Hymn", would it have been a moral imperative for any skilled model maker to refuse to create them, or the state to refuse to allow Jake and Dinos Chapman to make them as outraging public decency? Does that change if the dolls are intended for sex rather than for public display? It certainly makes it a lot more *icky*, and I am pretty sure that "I make mannequins of teenaged girls with genitals transplanted onto their faces for sexual purposes" would be the end of pretty much any dinner party conversation, but people sculpt fantasies in their heads all the time. Is having sex with a doll with fur significantly more *wrong*, rather than more *icky*, than fantasising about a person with fur?

Of course, these things are adynata, desires which *could not* be satisfied by congress with any human beingm which I'm finding a far more comfortable area than children/exes/objects of unrequited love/celebrities.

Soemthing being icky and something being wrong are not necessarily the same thing, nor is either necessarily mappable to preventable or in need of prevention. Interestingly, an article on Nerve on what it is actually like to have sex with a real doll posits that a fundamental problem for the man concerned was that any thrill from any form of transgressive sexual congress with his real doll was drowned out by the enormous transgressiveness of *having sex with a lump of silicone with a jointed skeleton*. That seems to me the fundamental problem with the real doll as some sort of royal road to the real doll as fetishist skeleton key...
 
 
Lord Morgue
10:54 / 17.05.04
You know, I was going to REALLY freak you all out by linking to Mouseworx, the Furry Realdoll company, but the site is so dead I couldn't even get it with an archiving service. So, I guess you get off the hook... for now.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
12:14 / 17.05.04
Isn't there an element to this which almost suggests necrophilia, or at least a similar impulse? A Realdoll is basically as 'submissive' as a dead body, in terms of what you can do with it and the fact it won't complain. Maybe there's a particular fetish for a completely submissive partner that could previously only been satisfied by a midnight trip to the morgue but can now be purchased for $6000 off the 'net.
As for the celebrity thing, blow-up dolls are already made that look vaguely like celebrities and have similar names ('Pammy' as Pamela Anderson etc.), and there are already tons built to resemble pornstars, including those incredibly freaky moulds of a girl's crotch (objectifying women if ever I saw it). All Realdolls.com has to do is make a model that roughly resembles Britney Spears and call it the 'Britney' and they would have their celebrity sex-bot.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:24 / 17.05.04
Isn't the key issue here that in an intimate, special moment with your realdoll, what you'd basically be doing is having sex with a plastic object ? In that respect, does it actually matter what the said lump of plastic looks like ? Y'know, in what sense is it morally " better " or " worse " to have sex with a lump of plastic that looks like a five year old child or one's mother, as opposed to say Britney Spears ? Purely as an act in itself, and aside from what it might imply about one's other activities, ( which seems like a separate concern - as a paedophile, say, the issue would be what you did or didn't do to real children, I'd have thought, ) why would the last case be apparently acceptable, and the other two not ? It would all be just plastic, after all.
 
 
Looby
15:04 / 19.05.04
This is a conversation I've had with my boyfriend more than once since the Buffybot ep. We have never managed to find a satisfactory answer, especially with regard to the manufacture of child-like dolls. Would it encourage or discourage abuse? Is it morally wrong to have sex with a lump of plasic that just *looks* like a child? How would you regulate such an industry? The liberal in me wants to say that whatever someone wishes to do with an inanimate object is up to them, but I can't say I'm comfortable with the implications.
 
 
Tom Morris
07:15 / 21.05.04
Sorry, I know this is supposed to be serious (Head Shop) and all, but it's all so similar to the episode of Futurama where Fry downloads Lucy Liu in to a robot from 'Kidnapster' etc.

I think the most bizarre thing isn't people who will have Britney Spears sex dolls, but people who will either create their own supermodels (sex dolls have, until recently, been unbelievably generic - imagine if somebody could create a being that is absolutely flawless - combining the best parts of many different people in to an über-sex-doll) or non-humans (one only need to look at the fetishes some people have towards anime, furry, 'tentacle sex' etc. to see where all this could lead to).

Mix in a bit of AI and you've got a troop of sexually promiscous robots. If every medium needs to use the previous medium to get started (think ebooks using the content of printed books which used the contents of manuscripts etc.), surely Britney Spears and Company are just the boot off point in to a bizarre field where all sorts of non-human and mixed-human (shapeshifting - what kind of a high might one achieve if you started having sex with someone who morphed in to somebody else during the act: their characteristics would change etc.).

I'm tempted to mumble some social-conservative claptrap and point to the relevant lines from Brave New World, but I'm not. It's sex. And, although I might not find a tentacled furry version of Lenin the most attractive of sexual partners, if that's your kink, it'll make you happy to be able to enact it.

Plus it'll give the Slashdot crowd infinite chances to make jokes about "Imagine a Beowulf cluster of those", nipples being replaced with LED's, Richard Stallman's GNU/Sex, our First Times being the time you got the text-to-speech synthesiser to mumble "Studmuffin" at you and so many 'In Soviet Russia' jokes that the world economy will collapse under the pressure.
 
 
Roxy
16:30 / 02.03.05
yeah probily well mabey well it might happen as there are already dolls like it
 
 
Quantum
16:35 / 07.03.05
What worries me is the thought of the realdoll being used to provide a simalcrum of someone you know- stalkertastic. As it says in the summary 'someone you are in love with but who will never have sex with you' How would you feel if someone got a realdoll of you? Or your Mum?

Buffy unbelievers look away now- Remember the episode where Spike gets a robot buffy to act out his fantasies upon? It's not healthy to get a rubber person instead of a real one. Stepford Wives, anyone?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:02 / 07.03.05
Oh, I can think of relationships where it would have been *far* healthier for both parties to have sex with rubber people rather than real ones. Sid and Nancy, for example. You're assuming, I think, that everyone approaches sex in the way that you do, and thus that everyone would be better off with a real girl/boy/live tiger because you are.

So, thought experiment. When is it better to "get" a rubber doll rather than a person? And how is getting a realdoll of someone more "stalkertastic" than masturbating while thinking of them? It's more obvious, but...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:51 / 08.03.05
I'd find the idea of a realdoll creepier than just plain ol' masturbation, certainly... I think it may have a lot to do with it being more totemistic, like the horror movie view of voodoo dolls, or a serial killer's trophies.

That may be irrational, but there it is.
 
  

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