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Gay, and not in a good way: the use of "gay" as a pejorative term without overt reference to homosexuality.

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
13:11 / 07.01.03
So...you can't find the bit where I "prefer to keep bastard out of the conversation"? Then why did you say it? It's untrue, incorrect, rude, and gives every impression that you are misrepresenting others either through malice or incompetence. As I say, I don't think you mean to, but could you as a favour keep an eye out for these little betises?

So, the next question is whether gay no longer has cultural currency, or is losing cultural currency, as a decriptor of homosexuality. Because that seems a counter-intuitive position, as does the idea that the common usage of "gay" as a pejorative is a sign of the more genreal acceptance of the characteristics originally described, I think this is where the comparison with "bastard" collapses on a number of levels. Most obviously, "bastard" was intended to be insulting to start with when used as a form of address: if you called someone a bastard, back when issues of heredity were factors of considerable importance, you were questioning their entitlement to their name, their family entitlements and their probity. "Gay", conversely, has not previously been intended to have an insulting sense. That was kind of the point of the word when coined as a descriptor referencing homosexuality in the first place. So, apples and bacon again.
 
 
some guy
13:51 / 07.01.03
So...you can't find the bit where I "prefer to keep bastard out of the conversation"?

D'oh! Haus, I apologize - completely misread you! I thought you were saying, "Go reread the thread where I, as a moderator, said "bastard" is off topic." I read it this way because of your earlier post on "lame," in which you imply that discussion of that word should be shuffled to a new thread. Again, my mistake!

Most obviously, "bastard" was intended to be insulting to start with when used as a form of address: if you called someone a bastard, back when issues of heredity were factors of considerable importance, you were questioning their entitlement to their name, their family entitlements and their probity. "Gay", conversely, has not previously been intended to have an insulting sense. That was kind of the point of the word when coined as a descriptor referencing homosexuality in the first place. So, apples and bacon again.

Not really, unless you're going to lay down an arbitrary rule about origins of the word itself. I don't see why that is necessary. "Gay" appears to be undergoing a similar addition of second popular meaning that "bastard" and "lame" and "wicked" and other words went through - are you arguing there's some limit to the number of times this can happen to a single word?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:50 / 07.01.03
Aha - all becomes clear! Except the bit about not accepting that people use "gay" with a different context and meaning...


No - just saying that bastard and gay have developed in different ways. My question was more whether that has an effect on the way the term develops usages, and also how the term stays in usage. In a sense, once "bastard" stops having a specific relevance to parentage, while remaining an insult, that primary meaning becomes pointless (because you can't successfully cast aspersions on someone's parentage by using it). I'm just not sure that "gay" works the same way, because (I think you are saying) the pejorative meaning and the descriptive-of-homosexuality meaning are disparate. Then there's the toksik position, where they aren't exactly, but "gay" comntains the idea of "gay, in a bad way", which ha some other implications - in a sense, it might be a bit closer to the morphology of "bastard", as the idea of the "natural" child, as portrayed in, say, Troilus and Cressida or King Lear - unprincipled, uncouth, animalistic, possessed of low cunning - spreading to encompass a broader pejorative....
 
 
some guy
15:25 / 07.01.03
Except the bit about not accepting that people use "gay" with a different context and meaning...

This may be another case of misreading - I took your string of examples of different posters' use of "gay" as an attempt to delegitimize those usages, because of those pesky "multiple-meaning quote marks" that are a favorite rhetorical technique of yours.*

In a sense, once "bastard" stops having a specific relevance to parentage, while remaining an insult, that primary meaning becomes pointless

I see what you're saying, I would say that what is happening is the allocation of a new primary meaning, with the original denotation shifting to a secondary meaning. I don't see this as a problem, as many words have multiple meanings - thanks to context, we can generally figure out which meaning is being used without much difficulty.

I also believe we are experiencing the beginning of this change in meaning, whereas with "bastard" and other words we're looking at them in hindsight, which influences the way we look at the issue. "Gay" as "stupid" (frustratingly a new connotation of "stupid," and not that word's primary meaning of "not intelligent") is in its infancy, and secondary to the current primary meaning of "gay" as "homosexual."

We're in a choppy sea because of the obvious sensitivities involved in the ascendency of the mainstream acceptance of homosexuality. I suspect that with the benefit of hindsight, the new secondary use of "gay" won't cause anyone to bat an eyelid, just like "bastard" and "lame" and so forth. But that's years off, yet.

However, to back up a bit, I'm intrigued by the suggestion upthread that offense should be linked to a word's reception* rather than the speaker's intention. I see this as just another form of "putting words in people's mouths," but I'm curious what other posters think.
 
 
HCE
18:49 / 14.01.03
However, to back up a bit, I'm intrigued by the suggestion upthread that offense should be linked to a word's reception* rather than the speaker's intention. I see this as just another form of "putting words in people's mouths," but I'm curious what other posters think.

So the question is, if I call a film I dislike "gay" in front of a gay person, and I don't specifically intend to insult that person, is the term offensive? Well, if I didn't intend to offend him, why wouldn't I have chosen another term? Surely there is no shortage of terms of dislike or contempt. I think this highlights the importance of taking care with language -- my intentions may be private but my speech is not.

I do see your point about putting words in others' mouths and I think it's a valid one, but not in every context.
 
 
Ganesh
11:14 / 17.01.03
I think it highlights the fact that language - some elements more than others, perhaps - rather than carrying some sort of unequivocally objectively 'true' meaning, is a negotiation between systems. The nature and extent to which one wishes to affect those systems should influence the degree of sensitivity with which one selects one's words...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:16 / 17.01.03
Washington Times: "Gay" unacceptable as substitute for "homosexual" in news stories.

From the article:
(a quote from a Times editor) "Per The Times' policy against Orwellian abuse of the English language, the euphemism ‘gay’ is not used to describe the homosexual lifestyle. "

The Washington Times is owned by the Unification Church. It's not a nationally respected paper, but it's been gaining in prominance lately. House homosexual (and bizarre Bush apologist) Andrew Sullivan is quoted in the article, attacking his paper's policy. Good for him, I suppose.

Another quote:
Gay is generally preferred to homosexual, " says the (Washington) Post guide. "Homosexual should be reserved for a clinical or biological context. Be wary of using homosexual as a noun. In certain contexts, it can be seen as a slur. "
 
 
Ganesh
12:29 / 17.01.03
As I've asked many times on the Christian boards, what exactly is "the homosexual lifestyle"?
 
 
HCE
23:42 / 22.01.03
Another quote:
Gay is generally preferred to homosexual, " says the (Washington) Post guide. "Homosexual should be reserved for a clinical or biological context. Be wary of using homosexual as a noun. In certain contexts, it can be seen as a slur. "


Heartening degree of sensitivity, and one reason why the Post is one of the few papers my (gay and very leftist) boss will talk to.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
10:32 / 23.01.03
Off topic, but I needed to post this somewhere as it's so jaw-dropping -

Ganesh asks-
what exactly is "the homosexual lifestyle"?


Actually, according to a new Bush appointee, it's the homosexual deathstyle
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:24 / 23.01.03
Perhaps this should be a new topic in Switchboard- I'm sure a lot of us will have a lot to say (of the explosive variety) in response to the article. Bush's government gets scarier by the day!
 
 
Cherry Bomb
16:24 / 27.01.03
Not sure if this is the right place for it, and if it isn't, I'll post this elsewhere, but I'm wondering if anyone else has read or heard about the recent controversy surrounding Rolling Stone magazine and their recent article about Bug Chasers, or men who actively seek to find partners with HIV.

One thing I thought was interesting was that, according to the Observer article about it
a woman from the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation says the article makes it easy to classify "gay men as reckless. " But I wonder, is that true? I mean, I've never labored under the impression that all straight folk are good people, so why would I want to think that about gay people?

Would it be better to portray all gay men as loveable relatively sex-free guys with cats and a good single straight girl friend, or would it be better to portray gay men ( and woman), as they truly are? Individuals with personalities, some good, some bad?

If this should be moved elsewhere, let me know and I'll do my part to kilt this thread.
 
 
some guy
17:22 / 27.01.03
Or to frame the Rolling Stone thing slightly differently - if the story is true, is it responsible reporting? I think it's certainly a subject that merits attention in this age of AIDS activism...
 
 
NewAndrew
05:10 / 01.02.03
Greetings from San Francisco. I'm thrilled to have discovered Barbelith and am looking forward to a long, lusty relationship with each and every one of you. Er, you know what I mean.

I'm fascinated by the discussion of the derogatory use of the word "gay." It's used here synonymously with other evolving pejoratives like "retarded" and "lame." On some of the message boards that draw teenagers, it's often spelled with many A's, as in "gaaaaay." It's also used as a sort of chorus, where several teens will look at each other and in unison, reacting to something they feel is ridiculous or stupid, cry out "gaaaay," followed by rolling eyes or lip smacking. I live in the Castro, a gay stronghold, and hear it used more commonly by gays than by straights (teenagers at the Mission High School excepted). The use is almost always associated with the ridiculous instead of the "bad." I suppose that in some sense gays are seen as ridiculous. I'm a gay man and I'm quite ridiculous. My gay roommate has often referred to me as "gay" without referring to sexuality at all.

I think Gertrude Stein is credited with the first use in American fiction of the word gay, back in 1922, in a Vanity Fair short story whose name escapes me. A friend in Montreal told me that the Quebecois are actually beginning to draw a distinction between "gai," from Continental "gaie," to mean "homosexual, and "gay" pronounced the same way, but with the ridiculous or bad connotation of which we've spoken. How odd!

A number of American publications geared toward gay teenagers, such as YGA or XY, often write about the odd contradiction between budding gay youths and their use and/or perception of the word. For instance, many gay youths, particularly in urban black and Latino communities, are comfortable with their attractions to the same sex, but would not identify with being gay. This isn't out of shame, I don't believe, but because they haven't yet been instructed by society to steadfastly and inarguably identify themselves with a word label. Lest you counter that it's merely self-preservation, these findings stem from research in environments where there is no threat of reprisal.

These same teens will use the word "gay" in the "ridiculous" sense of the word and look at you "queerly" if you were to say that their sexual attraction to a hot classmate of the same sex makes them (drumroll please) "GAY." It's a perplexing and encouraging form of naivete that, alas, never lasts very long, particularly once they become synchronized with the social complexities and comformities of high school. I'd argue that this naivete is more common in relatively enlightened environments, usually large cities, where young people are more commonly exposed to "regular" gay folk and the notion of being gay is not alien or utterly fearful.

Did you know that it wasn't until 1984 that The Wall Street Journal permitted the use of the word "gay" by its writers? That's right, EIGHTY-four. Of course, I don't think any of them are using it in the pejorative sense, but it's an interesting factoid. And while many scholars refute the idea that Jesus condemned or even MENTIONED homosexuality, the occasion of the word "racha" in New Testament Matthew suggests that Jesus condemned the use of anti-gay slurs to insult people. I'm not convinced of this argument, since I do not believe that homosexual consciousness was even remotely developed at that time in history, and Jesus' intent may be taken or intepreted entirely incorrectly.

Well, I don't want my first post to be a neverending story, so I'll shut up for now. Nice to meet you all. I've really enjoyed reading your posts. Cheers.
 
 
stml
14:23 / 13.03.03
I know this thread is dying (hack, hack, cough, cough) and I'm a latecomer, but here's my two pence:

I have a 7yo brother and a 9yo sister, and they've just started using 'gay' in conversation (or at least in argument), and they're certainly using in pejoratively. Moreover, they have no idea of the homosexual meaning of gay, nor that I, they're 22yo big bro, am gay. While I know in my heart they will have no problem when they understand, I still don't want they're first encounter with the descriptive term to be associated with insults. Indeed, I find it very hurtful.

Furthermore, many of my friends use 'gay' pejoratively in conversation, with no overt linkage to 'homosexual' - EXCEPT that when they're around me, many will turn straight round and go: "Oh, sorry James". So what do you think they're thinking?

For me, this argument is not semantic, it's personal. Whatever the semantic arguments, I tell people off whenever they use 'gay' pejoratively around me, and going by their guilty expressions I think it's pretty clear they know it's not a good thing to be saying.
 
  

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