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Gay, and not in a good way: the use of "gay" as a pejorative term without overt reference to homosexuality.

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
11:12 / 02.01.03
I'd look at the precedent word: in its original usage, someone who is "lame" is worse (at walking) than someone who is not. This value judgement has since been applied to things other than walking.

Oddly enough, I was hanging around people who use "gay" as a pejorative (unthinkingly rather than actively homophobically) enough that I caught myself using it as such; since "lame" has the same vowel sound, I found it to be the easiest replacement word. Which means I discriminate against the disabled. Ah, hell.

Thus, gay is used to signify weakness, as inherent in femininity, and so synominous with "lame" in modern usage. The real link between "gay" and "lame" is the sense of weakness or lessening inherent in the condition by cultural standards.

That seems a reasonable amount of discussion of the word "lame", for a thread that is not about the discussion of the word "lame". You may want to start another thread with a more general remit, or even one specifically devoted to "lame".

However, briefly, "lame" is an interesting precedent (and arguably the exemplification of an interestiung double standard) because its pejorative usage to describe things, concepts or acts not immediately associable with a disability in one leg has existed for longer than the pejorative usage of gay to describe things, concepts or acts. Also, of course, because the adjective "lame" to describe somebody (outside equestrianism and ducks) with a disability in one leg seems to be on the way out, although this could be specific to my cultural or geographical experience. Is this perhaps the coming age for the term "gay" to describe homosexuality?

(Toksik, it may be noted, seems to be arguing that actually the pejorative usage of "gay" is in fact connected very clearly to homosexuality, but only the bad aspects of homosexuality, such as wearing a Green Lantern vest with the wrong set of pectorals. At present this argument does not seem coherent enough to generate a worthwhile response, but it is certainly an interesting sideroad)
 
 
HCE
21:41 / 02.01.03
I have noticed the word gay used as insult mostly to describe things that are seen as effeminate, so locally at least, I'd conclude that it is very directly tied to a) perception of homosexual men as feminine and b) femininity as undesirable in men. Sounds to me as though there's something in this usage to offend pretty much everybody. Still, though I would upbraid my younger sister (who is straight) for using it, I don't mind its use (in describing clothes or films, for example) by gay friends. It's another "safe space" issue: it's acceptable to acknowledge amongst ourselves that we are sometimes ridiculous, but we have to defend ourselvse from the charge of ridiculousness by others, who at least symbolically pose a threat.
 
 
glassonion
09:59 / 04.01.03
when over-enthusiastic kiddults presenting tv shows in spangly outfits patronise their audience and ask a record-company approved question of the latest pop idol and it irritates, i often describe the entire spectacle as 'gay'. [i used to say 'tv-gay' or 'gameshow-gay' but the latter is too long and the former can refer to too much at once] it's the only word i really have for that strange feeling of bellowing kitsch that many of the more succesful slices of mass-culture are so often imbued with. while there is probably a link in this to certain qualities represented in homosexual stereotypes, the word in that context doesn't really have much causal link to other opinions on arse-banditry or what haveyou. [people with general homophobic feelings as i understand them look slightly askance when you use 'gay' like that, because the overt gaudiness of mass-culture is so omnipresent, and they save 'gay' for when they're particularly talking about poofy stuff they don't often have much time for]

and while pedants corner is looking so roomy: what about calling someone a homo, like 'don't cry 'cos they shot king kong you homo, he was going to destroy the city'? when 'homo' [r.w. slow-mo] is the latin word for man, and has nothing to do with homosexuality, which comes from the greek homos, flat 'o's, meaning 'same'.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:09 / 04.01.03
Fortunately,. there is a handy-dandy thread on the status of the descriptive diminutive right about here.

Personally, I haven't heard "homo" being thus defended since secondary school, as the connection in English between "homo" as an abusive term and "homosexual" is pretty obvious. Also because "homo", the Latin equivalent of "anthropos", has a short first "o", IIRC.
 
 
some guy
13:10 / 04.01.03
I have noticed the word gay used as insult mostly to describe things that are seen as effeminate

In the US it appears the kids mostly use "gay" as a synonym for "stupid." I think in many cases it's pretty clearly divorced from implications of effeminate leanings or any other queer stereotype, which is one of the reasons it's so difficult to make a case against the new slang usage.
 
 
Ganesh
16:56 / 04.01.03
Mmm. This thread's been nagging away in my peripheral vision for some time now - and, oddly enough, 'mild irritant' is probably how I'd describe my reaction to pejorative uses of the word 'gay'.

Why does it irritate? Well, this is a little harder to articulate but I think it's because, personally, it's my 'label of choice' in those monotonous but somehow inevitable social situations where I'm put in the position of having to correct the person I'm talking to, who, failing to pick up on more subtle conversational cues (such as the use of 'partner'), has assumed that I am straight. Always a moment of awkwardness, but I've found that a brief "I'm gay, actually, so..." and immediately moving on minimises the discomfort for all concerned. Describing myself as a 'poof' is fine amongst those with whom I already enjoy a certain level of banter, but 'homosexual', whether adjective or (incorrect) noun, is overly clinical and sounds unwieldy coming from myself. 'Queer' is okay with a certain age-group but open to misinterpretation.

So... for me, 'gay' has been the most socially-neutral term to use in uncertain company, in that it conveys meaning efficiently with a minimum of flippancy or overt 'agenda'. For me, it's been a valuable descriptor, and this is perhaps why it irks me to see its use generalised to mean 'weak', 'pathetic', 'feeble', etc. Additionally, this particular usage appears to hark back to the timeworn misconception/cliche that the 'gay' male is the one doing the 'taking', the passive receptacle, the 'woman'. Fucking is what the man does; fucking is strong, powerful, hetero. It's allowing yourself to be fucked which is 'gay'.

This is a stereotypical - and, to my mind, regressive - view of sexuality. It depresses me that the rising use of pejorative 'gay' seems, whether by accident or (IMHO more likely) unconscious association, to feed into it.

On the subject of pejorative 'gay' becoming more widespread while society becomes generally more accepting of (some types of) homosexuality, one might speculate that greater exposure to gay archetypes (if not hugely greater understanding of the complexities of gay identity) has led to greater usage of the word 'gay'. This may be analogous with the use of 'schizo' as a term of playground abuse: despite a greater awareness of mental health issues in general, specific knowledge of types or subsets of mental illness is still poor, and studded with misconceptions, superstitions and urban myths. Hence we know that mental illness has a high prevalence within our society but it's still Other, and we reassure ourselves by making 'schizo' a term of exclusion.

I think it's a little naive to suggest that, if one is concerned with the use of potentially stigmatising terms, one is somehow missing or being diverted from the 'real' problem - societal homophobia, etc. From my reading of studies on stigma (there were many of these carried out around the 'political correctness' debate), it appears that the minority groups in question were sensitive to the 'hot' pejoratives in question, and their use was connected to how assertive or visible individuals would be in mixed company. All common sense, really: if I've just met a group of strangers and they're using 'gay' to mean 'weak' I'm much more inclined to batten down the conversational hatches and stay firmly in the closet. Naturally, there are a load of modifying or mitigating factors around this: the word 'Paki', say, is more forgivable coming from my dementing 97-year-old grandmother than from the President of the most powerful nation on Earth...

On Barbelith, I tend to assume (perhaps mistakenly) that posters have a certain level of cultural sophistication, and are aware of such linguistic nuances. This implies a greater awareness of the potential degree of offence caused - but whether or not one should necessarily avoid causing offence is a moot point. It's faintly depressing, however, when Barbelith posters adopt the same no-brainer terms of abuse as everyone else (although I'm uncertain exactly why I expect them to do otherwise). 'Pansy' annoyed me, and 'homo' annoys me, just as their casual usage would piss me off In Real Life.

Anyway. I'm not sure if that advances any particular argument but there y'go.
 
 
The Falcon
15:52 / 05.01.03
Who said 'homo'?

Pansy = softy = effete = ineffectual. So, basically, yeah, it's a 'masculinity' thing, if you want. Being what I am (s/w/m,) I have no standing in the credibility stakes here, and if you, Ganesh, or anyone else would prefer I not use 'gay' to describe 'Sandman', that's fair enough, and a perfectly reasonable request. I will not be declining to use it when describing the music of my favourite band, Shudder to Think, though, as they themselves considered it a worthy and apt epithet.

Barbe-abuse is piss-poor, too: 'twart'? I assume this serves as a combo between 'twat' and 'fart' - a fanny-fart, yes? (Actually, that's not bad.) Though it just looks and sounds very like 'twat' - but isn't.

'Gay' to me should, and will, remain a pejorative, for the reasons I've already detailed. It'll become archaic to use it as a descriptor altogether, something I'm not interested in at all, really (as it only serves as a reinforcement of binary values,) apart from experiential accounts, and will serve, as 'bastard' does, as a reminder about the silly things people used to consider worthy of prejudice. However, yes, as it stands it is inextricably linked to stereotypes from the above 'weak' quartet (although - aren't gym-body men pretty gay, in a homosexual way, too?)

So I'll only be using it as a descriptor in the meantime.

Perhaps Barbelith should consider showing new posters a code of conduct? Something along the lines of "Violence and war are almost certainly bad. As is hating (or even disliking) someone for what they are, rather than what they've done. By joining Barbelith you accept these terms." I rather thought everyone here thought that anyway, and didn't need reminding.
 
 
The Falcon
16:00 / 05.01.03
Also, Hensher is gay, and writes a weekly column about being gay. He even mentioned Apollo and Midnighter once! Fantastic.

To unpedant, what is 'Sodomy' in legal terminology? Still, that qualifies a few of the less vanilla members of the straight set.

I like it more and more - blurring distinctions.

'Breeder' makes the distinction between animal sexual drive and other, but like most derogatory terms aimed at the powerful/majority group is pretty much water off a duck's back.
 
 
Ganesh
18:09 / 05.01.03
In reply to some of your points, Duncan, 'homo' was brought up earlier in one of this thread's many examples. As I said, the word annoys me - but I guess that's neither here nor there, really.

Similarly, I explained my irritation with casual usage of the word 'gay'; I did not make any sort of "request", merely stated my response and attempted to articulate some of the reasons for it. How you use the term is entirely up to you.

As is probably obvious, I've not been around much on Barbelith lately, so the origins of this discussion aren't something on which I feel particularly equipped to comment. "Barbe-abuse" may well be of a low standard; whether or not this is relevant to pejorative use of the word 'gay' isn't entirely clear.

I'm not sure I agree with you that 'gay', as a descriptor, will drop out of linguistic currency quite that quickly. So long as the cultural default option is straightforward heterosexuality (and the vast majority of us grow up in heterosexually-modelled families), there will remain at least some requirement for sexual descriptors. Personally, I reckon we'd be better served by developing a whole load more labels; 'gay' just ain't specific enough...

"Gym-body men"? I guess it depends. The relationship of gym-going to physical appearance to masculinity to 'strength' to narcissism to homo-eroticism to sexuality to language really deserves a whole thread of its own.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
20:18 / 05.01.03
Is there not some balance to be seen in the pejorative use of "hetty", or such like, as a term of mockery or non-approval towards bullish 'Straight' behaviours and people? Or is this 'irony'?
 
 
Ganesh
20:38 / 05.01.03
Possibly, but the nearest equivalent (in terms of being at least slightly pejorative) is probably 'breeder' - and I've never actually heard that applied to anyone who's not straight - y'know, gay people don't commonly talk about something being "so het" unless the subject clearly is heterosexual. Also, there's the phenomenon of gay men describing themselves (in contact ads) as 'straight acting' - intended (in a supposedly 'positive' way) to distance themselves from 'effeminacy' and the like.

So...it's complicated.
 
 
The Falcon
01:26 / 06.01.03
The 'request' was hypothetical.

I do think barbe-abuse is kind of relevant here, Haus. Twart is the only example I can think of, but most abuse is sexually (or fecally) related. It's an entirely laudable aim to try and offer an alternative to this with less specifically offensive or silly stuff, but, well, I don't see it catching on.

I don't suggest a timeframe for it dropping out of common descriptive usage and/or becoming a negative without relation to (near-)original use; it's simply a long-term aim. Young people and underclasses are generally an excellent yardstick as to how a language is heading - c.f. W. Labov's research.

And here's where it all began, about halfway down the page - you can witness the unedifying spectacle of debate over a Green Lantern t-shirt turn into a flailing moral/linguistic debate, me being spectacularly obnoxious + more swearing than you can shake a stick at.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:40 / 06.01.03
(Mod hat - Actually, "twart" is just "twat" with a Mummerset accent, I think. It came into Barbelith usage as an abbreviation of "I'm Coming for You, Twart", the username of a Barbeloid of years gone past whose forays into sexual harrassment made him a byword for not-very-brightness. If this were a thread specifically discussing the usage of "gay" as a tum-de-tum-de-tum with or without overt reference to homosexuality on Barbelith alone, the availability and quality of other terms might be at issue, but as far as I know it isn't, so I question the importance of Barbelith catchphrases.)

The "Sandman" reference reminds me of something that confused me at the start but that slipped my mind. You said that you thought the Sandman was gay, but that you liked it. Does "gay" here mean "bad, stupid, 'lame'" or similar, and thus are you saying that it's shit, but you like it, as somebody might say "I know Dark Angel is a big pile of crap, but it's entertaining crap"? Or is there some other sense of "gay" here, which is not "gay" in the sense that the Sandman is attracted to people of the same sex, and not "gay" in the sense of "bad", but occupies some other language usage which may or may not act as a criticism?

(Normally somebody mentions Wittgenstein at this point, but let's see if we can hold off for a bit...)
 
 
The Falcon
13:05 / 06.01.03
'Sandman' is poofy. Or girly - it is not 'masculine'. It has talking animals, and fairies, and people talking about their feelings. My conditioning is such that I'm predisposed toward tales featuring giant robots, with big (phallic?) guns, that turn into trucks, rather than this.

Despite this unsavoury factoid, or perhaps because of it, I thoroughly enjoy the thing. Most of it, anyway.

Delete whatever you feel is apposite, Hauser. But only if I get a big smile.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:36 / 06.01.03
A big smile....and a huggle.

Huggles!


Right, enough flirting. I think I get it; we have a cognate here - Sandman is not gay in the sense of being attracted to the same gender, it's gay in the sense that it has elements that are also associated with the set of floating, mutable cultural assumptions that we idenitfy as "not-manly" or "not-straight", where "manly" or "straight" would, in comics terms, involve big fights and transforming robots (although, of course, Ultra Magnus is both manly *and* gay as a window, which is making me think about another thread on "straight-acting", Ganesh's thoughts on the gym body etc). Here gay is being identified as *other* - Sandman is being called "gay" to delieate its othernes from the (dominant?) mode of comics storytelling; you could as well describe Trina Robbins or Skeleton Key as "gay" or "girly", the terms being pretty much interchangeable.

That's a usage with its own complications, which is not necessarily pejorative as such, and certainly not pejorative in its intent here, but is clearly connected to constructions of homosexuality, as opposed to the Lawrence Llewellyn-Bowen Is My God usage, which is pejorative but *not* apparently connected to constructions of homosexuality, or the Toksik usage, which is pejorative *and* connected to constructions of homosexuality (but more precisely the bad bits of homosexuality). Are all these usages coterminous and equally valid/right? Are they all dicrete, or all interconnected?
 
 
The Falcon
13:55 / 06.01.03
Well, it's an organic process...

Also, I think 'poof' replaces 'woman' as joking rejection between straight boys at around the early to mid-teens, when they realise they like women - as in "Fuck off, you poof!". What this says about the relationship between pubescent boys is entirely up in the air, though Freud suggests men make jokes to avoid committing homosexual acts.

Ganesh is a psychologist, inne? Ask him.

There are ramifications for using 'gay' as shorthand for 'effete' or 'ineffectual', which probably act as excessive counterweight to the 'breeder' chat, as well as playing to the feminine side of binary stereotypes.
 
 
some guy
15:31 / 06.01.03
"gay" or "girly", the terms being pretty much interchangeable.

I don't think this is true - "gay" in this usage doesn't reference "girly" but rather "not manly," which may appear to be the same thing on the surface, but aren't.

Are all these usages coterminous and equally valid/right?

Sure, as evidenced by the fact that different people currently use the word in each of these ways.

Are they all dicrete, or all interconnected?

I suspect they are approaching discrete usages - just like the modern usage of lame and bastard. We may wish to try to force a case for interconnectedness, but it would be silly in light of specific modern usages (e.g. "Man, Gangs of New York was so gay!" does not reference homosexuality or "non-manliness").
 
 
Ganesh
16:00 / 06.01.03
Psychiatrist. And, off the top of my head, I wouldn't know.

Just to be clear here: my objective here is not to place any sort of restriction on "Barbe-slang" or similar; I'm merely stating what pisses me, personally, off about the pejorative 'gay' - you are under absolutely no obligation to alter your posting habits based on what may or may not irritate me. We are not all PC policemen now...

I'm perfectly aware that kids and "underclasses" are good cultural yardsticks where slang is concerned - but playground fads slide in and out of favour (where's 'joey' now? 'Wally'?) and widespread use of a term doesn not necessarily indicate longevity, inexorability or, indeed, desirability (particularly in more adult contexts).

I'm not sure that the descriptor use of 'gay' is or should become extinct. In particular, it seems to me that the (relatively) neutral descriptor continues to fill a linguistic niche which the likes of 'poof', 'dyke', 'queer' and 'not heterosexual' have not yet evolved to supplant. While I'd love to envisage a world where gender equality has rendered such discussions obsolete, it's several generations away. So long as the tediously neverending social ritual of 'coming out' to parents, friends and colleagues remains a necessity (and it is a necessity - I'd estimate that I use the phrase "Well, I'm gay, so..." every time I change jobs, at roughly six-monthly intervals) the neutral-descriptor use of 'gay' is 'live'.

This is why I don't think "'gay' is the new 'bastard'" (despite not being a huge Green Lantern fan I finally gave in and clicked on your link, Duncan). Casual discussion of someone's 'in-or-out-of-wedlockness' are hardly commonplace these days - there's no equivalent of having to correct someone's assumptions about one's sexuality - so 'bastard' has effectively been freed up for sole use as a pejorative. 'Gay' has not; we pansies ain't finished with it yet; you can't have it!

I can certainly see how things might evolve. The current generation of same-sex-attracted teenagers, faced with the prospect of announcing, in effect, "Mum, Dad, I'm pathetic/weak/passive/the universal fuck-receptacle" may be forced into finding another neutral descriptor. I'm not sure what it's gonna be, though. 'Queer' is still too imprecise (and slightly confrontational), 'poof' and 'dyke' haven't yet (despite the best efforts of Mr Norton) shaken off their offensive potential, 'homosexual' is ridiculously formal, and 'not heterosexual' merely invites further, more intrusive questions.

Why oh why did those hets have to take 'gay' and spoil it? It used to be such a nice word...
 
 
HCE
18:57 / 06.01.03
Also recently noticed it spelled "ghey" on another board, perhaps to mollify a particularly fierce poster there who is gay.
 
 
some guy
19:12 / 06.01.03
Also recently noticed it spelled "ghey" on another board, perhaps to mollify a particularly fierce poster there who is gay.

I think ghey is just the word's version of kewl and rulz, from what I've seen "the kids" write.
 
 
rakehell
20:57 / 06.01.03
My friends sometimes use ghey in the same way that they use phat. So that ghey is bad/lame/what-have-you, but has no connection to homosexuality, in the same way that phat - meaning good - has nothing to do with obesity.

Which is interesting, in that people like to use the word as a perojative so much that they're willing to change the spelling to - hopefully - remove it from gay=queer context.
 
 
The Strobe
21:09 / 06.01.03
Hmn. You could go a step further and take it the word used irritatingly frequently in more puerile geek IRC channels, "gh3y". Thing is... it's still pronounced "gay", which doesn't help its in the real world.

"But the three is silent!"
 
 
Ganesh
21:27 / 06.01.03
So if I call my sister a 'sty00pd bhitch' I'm not being misogynist or implying that she's unintelligent, yeah?
 
 
The Strobe
21:44 / 06.01.03
Got it in one, Ganesh.

Now, it's an actively different mis-spelling - ghey/gh3y/gay - but where do we stand on homophones? I mean, is someone using the term negatively when they say "ghey"? Of course, it's originally derived from "gay" and so is mocking the original term or deriding it... but at the same time, the change of spelling indicates (I guess, linguistically) that there is an attempt to distinguish "ghey" - lame, crappy, bad - from "gay" - simply homosexual. The fact that in order to make that change the two had to be equated at one point is obviously bad... but is there anything redeeming in that change of spelling? Or are all words pronounced "gay" tarnished by the same brush?

I'm not sure at all on this, which is why I'm questioning.
 
 
The Strobe
21:47 / 06.01.03
To clarify my position: I don't like use of "ghey/gey/gh3y" at all, the italics were a persona I adopted. And I don't hang around those IRC channels anymore. That said, I know a coworker, and at times, his use in IM of "gay" and "ghey" is interchangable, seemingly at random. And he never uses it to mean "homosexual", and it has got to the point of being, well, not very suitable, even if it is in IRC or IM or whatever. So I guess the homophone-thing works in reverse, as well - even if they mean "gh3y", sometimes people slip and type "gay".

So to answer my own question: I'm not even sure derivative homophones are acceptable.
 
 
Ganesh
21:51 / 06.01.03
Well, every time I corrected co-workers, I'd have to pass them a Post-It or something. Or perhaps have a batch of Northstar-style 'I am GAY' cards printed...
 
 
The Falcon
22:19 / 06.01.03
Like this? :



That'd rock ass.

I knew I'd fuck up the pychiatrist/psychologist distinction.
 
 
some guy
22:23 / 06.01.03
So if I call my sister a 'sty00pd bhitch' I'm not being misogynist or implying that she's unintelligent, yeah?

Your sister? Then yeah, you're probably not. I'd be extremely difficult to make a convincing case that using "bitch" is misogynist in the contexts that most people use it...
 
 
Ganesh
22:42 / 06.01.03
That would look good on a business card:

'FOR WHILE I AM NOT INCLINED TO DISCUSS MY SEXUALITY WITH PEOPLE FOR WHOM IT IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS --

-- I AM GAY!

(IN A GOOD WAY, OBVIOUSLY.)'
 
 
The Falcon
22:51 / 06.01.03
It'd look fucking brilliant.

I wish I was gay just so I could make and have them. Maybe I will anyway.
 
 
A
05:56 / 07.01.03
I always thought Northstar had some weird thing for his sister.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:11 / 07.01.03
I have a feeling that's a Comic Books question. Or, to put it another way, Claremont Northstar almost certainly did. Then somebody else made him gay. That's how the world works.

Back to the warm waters of Ontopica, if "gay" as a pejorative can refer both to "the bad aspects of homosexuality" (toksik) and as a descriptive to girliness (Duncan) or non-manliness (Lawrence), can it also confidently be said not to have any conceptual overlap when used to mean "stupid/bad"? Is this multiple-spelling issue a red herring?
 
 
some guy
11:19 / 07.01.03
I have a feeling that's a Comic Books question. Or, to put it another way, Claremont Northstar almost certainly did. Then somebody else made him gay. That's how the world works.

No, Northstar was created (and written) as a gay character from the beginning. At least, this is what Byrne claims.

Back to the warm waters of Ontopica, if "gay" as a pejorative can refer both to "the bad aspects of homosexuality" (toksik) and as a descriptive to girliness (Duncan) or non-manliness (Lawrence), can it also confidently be said not to have any conceptual overlap when used to mean "stupid/bad"? Is this multiple-spelling issue a red herring?

The "conceptual overlap" question is impossible to resolve. The basic problem here is that you prefer to define "gay" in your own terms, and not accept that other people use the word with a completely different context and meaning. Again, this gets back to "bastard," which I know you prefer to keep out of the conversation but which is a great example of precedent for this thread. Would you argue that there is "conceptual overlap" when someone calls you a bastard?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:27 / 07.01.03
(Moderator hat - any further mention of Northstar will get a post marked for deletion, unless the mention itself is relevant to the topic. If it isn't, start a new thread)

Actually, I just *did* accept that. You may have noticed it in the entire paragraph above, and while you're rereading, could you find the bit where I prefer to keep "bastard" out of the Conversation. You really *don't* mean to be as rude as you appear, do you? Life gets a lot easier once one realises that. But in the interests of keeping the thread ontopic, could you at least be able to support comments made about other people's attitudes or behaviour, and if possible stick to the ideas? Cheers.

As Ganesh mentioned above, of course, the meaning of "bastard" concerned with illegitimacy is pretty much meaningless now, becasue illegitimacy no longer has any real cultural currency - certainly, it is unlikely that the children of the next generation are likely to be born in marriage, and as heredity has become less important the need to trace unambiguous bloodlines has also declined. "Lame" would be a more interesting comparison, since, as Aus said, lameness still has an actual cultural currency. But does it? I've only really encountered the term in self-consciously archaising (or simply antique) text to describe somebody with impaired motion. Which brings us back to Ganesh's poser on how the next generation should say "mum, dad, I'm (synonym for stupid, crap, not very good)". If the two terms have no connection, and can be discerned instinctively, then we don;t have a problem.
 
 
some guy
12:57 / 07.01.03
could you find the bit where I prefer to keep "bastard" out of the Conversation.

You can prefer whatever you want, but more than one person has found it an appropriate example in discussing the shifting usage of "gay." It's relevant to the thread.

the meaning of "bastard" concerned with illegitimacy is pretty much meaningless now, becasue illegitimacy no longer has any real cultural currency

I suspect we're seeing the beginning of the new usage of "gay" precisely because of the upswing in mainstream acceptance of homosexuality. Eventually it will "no longer [have] any real cultural currency." Let's not forget that "straight" doesn't always refer to heterosexuality.

"Lame" would be a more interesting comparison, since, as Aus said, lameness still has an actual cultural currency.

I agree with you that "lame" is no longer used in it's original context - at least in the US. The commonly accepted connotation of "lame" is "stupid" (but confusingly not "stupid" in the sense of "unintelligent").

Which brings us back to Ganesh's poser on how the next generation should say "mum, dad, I'm (synonym for stupid, crap, not very good)". If the two terms have no connection, and can be discerned instinctively, then we don;t have a problem.

Do you really think if a kid says, "Mum, Dad, I'm gay," the parents are going to think, "Oh dear. He's an absurdly unengaging cultural product?" I think the usage is already "discerned instinctively."
 
  

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