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"And Ayn Rand is, well, y'know..."

 
  

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We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:15 / 04.09.01
No, I don't.

Someone tell me. Ayn Rand is what?

I know you can still establish left-cred points in the US by trashing her. I know an acquaintance of mine was proud to say he'd never read her work.

Who's read her? What did you think? Why is she such a demon?
 
 
Jackie Susann
11:48 / 04.09.01
In other shocking news, many Republicans dismiss Karl Marx's work without bothering to read it!
 
 
QUINT
13:32 / 04.09.01
Does that mean that kind of behaviour is okay or that Republicans are a bunch of fucking idiots or that both the Republican party and the generic left are capable of being more stupid than a tonne of British cows in a lake of pentathol?
 
 
Wombat
13:41 / 04.09.01
Insane libertarian capitalist.
I`d reccomend reading it.
She was madder than a sack full of badgers.
 
 
SMS
14:27 / 04.09.01
Oh, yes.

I've only read "The Virtue of Selfishness."

I don't think she's a demon exactly, but I do think she twists the meaning of a lot of things.

Her take on opposing views seems a bit wrong, and her concept of morals seems largely centered around material things. It doesn't have to be interpreted this way but she seems to do so. Her most basic principle is good. One should have a hierarchy of values and work in favour of those values, never putting a lesser one below a greater one. But of course, that's pretty obvious.

Her ideal world seems to be pretty good. But , like most ideal worlds, I don't think it would work very well. Objectivisms take on redistribution of wealth: if someone wishes to give their money to charities, they will not be stopped. The view on taxes: in a free land, all taxes are voluntary (with a note that this would not work, today).

To me, her philosophy seems very natural. Natural in the sense that it is cruel and efficient.
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:47 / 05.09.01
quote: Does that mean...

It means it's hardly surprising that, generally, people don't read long, dense texts espousing positions that are the opposite of their own. And I don't really think that reflects much stupidity, more disinterest and lack of time.
 
 
SMS
09:47 / 05.09.01
Of course it's silly to be proud of it.

If people are interested in a brief overview of Objectivism, it's pretty accessible. Not all her books are long. The one I read wasn't.
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:47 / 05.09.01
Yeah, my point is just that it's not surprising that people on the left don't particularly want an overview of Objectivism, since every indication is that it's resolutely opposed to their views and politics. Is it really a big deal that people don't read stuff they're not interested in?
 
 
Dee Vapr
09:47 / 05.09.01
"resolutely opposed to my views and politics" sounds like a pretty good definition of "interesting" to me.

That's probably perverse.
 
 
Dee Vapr
09:47 / 05.09.01
Robert Anton Wilson creates this fantastic satire of Ayn Rand, in Illumantus!, the second or third book, I think, can't quite remember. Quite biting as I remember, but strangely quite compassionate about her at the same time.

[ 05-09-2001: Message edited by: Dee Vaprd ]
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:47 / 05.09.01
quote: "resolutely opposed to my views and politics" sounds like a pretty good definition of "interesting" to me

So you would consider, for example, white supremacist literature, flat earth tomes, books enthusing about music you don't like, and Taliban edicts 'interesting'? That's not perverse, it's just using a different meaning of the word than I was.
 
 
Dee Vapr
09:47 / 05.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Crunchy Mr Bananapants:


So you would consider, for example, white supremacist literature, flat earth tomes, books enthusing about music you don't like, and Taliban edicts 'interesting'?


Yes.

Sorry, Crunchy, but I really do think that it's a big deal that people can be so dismissive of ideas they don't like. It's not positive at all. Call me an idealist.

Were my semantics really that wrong? You certainly appeared to be expressing "interest" in terms of stimulation, as opposed to "having a vested interest". If I read it wrongly, I apologise.
 
 
agapanthus
09:47 / 05.09.01
Any similarity to some of Neitzche's ideas -
ubermensch, god is dead, the herd etc????
 
 
Jackie Susann
09:47 / 05.09.01
I don't think it's so much a matter of people dismissing ideas they don't like, as all of us having a limited ammount of time for reading. So we make choices, largely based on what interests us, and this is partly determined by our politics, among many other things. I really don't think it's a big deal.

As for interesting, I meant something like entertaining, whereas you seem to mean something like educational. Not that these are necessarily opposed, it's a question of emphasis.

I think it would be a stretch to draw parallels between Rand and Nietzsche, but given how widely the latter has been distorted and misread, it wouldn't be surprising.
 
 
.
10:09 / 05.09.01
nietzsche is fantastic. he went clubbing recently, read his report at: http://iivix.2itb.com/nietzsche.htm

as for ayn rand, well her literary style is pathetic and melodramatic. i should know, cos i've read both Atlas Shrugged (don't bother) and The Fountainhead (worth a read). but she might just have a point sometimes. an individualist needs to read up on her work, just to see what the dark side of libertarianism is. (There is no reason that individualism needs to be cold, and lack empathy, compassion etc, but thats what Rand seems to believe).
 
 
Ethan Hawke
10:50 / 05.09.01
From a reading of the Fountainhead, I believe Rand is a demon to the left because of her opposition to charity in any form. Howard Roark, the protagonist of said book, make a speech toward the end about how the middle class is screwed by the poor. The middle class is taxed into oblivion by a government who coddles the poor and gives them free housing etc. Rand is totally against the poor. She thinks the poor is poor because of their own fault.

That, plus her nutty sexual politics, the fact that her hero, Roark, is not recognizble as a human being at all, and her resolute belief in Progress.
 
 
Ellis
10:58 / 05.09.01
"The middle class is taxed into oblivion by a government who coddles the poor and gives them free housing etc. Rand is totally against the poor. She thinks the poor is poor because of their own fault."

Does she actually say that it is their own fault? I have read Atlas Shrugged and I don't remember her saying that.

There is a chapter in A-S where she shows an analogue of Communism where everyone leaches off the system and hides their abilities so they don't have to do more work.

"That, plus her nutty sexual politics"

What do you mean by that?
I know Dagny in A-S is a bit of a bed hopper, falling in love with the richest man- Francisco then Reardon then Galt, but...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
11:06 / 05.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Ellis:

"That, plus her nutty sexual politics"



I Guess I'll put a big SPOILERhere in case anyone wants to pick up the Fountainhead.

In the Fountainhead, the main female character Dominique Fontaine, is totally frigid sexually until she is raped and dominated by the hero of the book, Howard Roark, who at that time is working in her father's granite mine. Dominique spends the better part of the book trying to destroy Roark because (a) she can't have anyone dominate her like that (b) She is in love with him, instantly (c) he and his work are too brilliant to be wasted on the common mass of society. Then she marries not one, but two of his bitterest enemies, the anti-Roarks, in a combination of masochism and desire to hurt him.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:16 / 05.09.01
Oh God.

I sense another article coming on.

Fuck.

Briefly: to say her characters are cold and unfeeling is to miss the point. To her way of thinking, they're the only ones capable of love.

Similarly, her materialism is zeitgeistly and probably a reaction to the Soviet Leninist/Stalinist worldview.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:22 / 05.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Nick:
Oh God.

I sense another article coming on.

Fuck.

Briefly: to say her characters are cold and unfeeling is to miss the point. To her way of thinking, they're the only ones capable of love.

Similarly, her materialism is zeitgeistly and probably a reaction to the Soviet Leninist/Stalinist worldview.


Right. To her way of thinking. You asked why there is such a visceral reaction to Ayn Rand, and I told you why I had that reaction. I don't agree with her view of human relationships at all. That doesn't mean I didn't *get* it.

As for her materialism, it strikes me that Ayn Rand is probably the purest example of exactly what is wrong with the so-called "american dream" as well as a reactionary against the commies who stole her family livelihood.

Rand is very popular among the supposedly forward-thinking techy crowd, so for better or worse, we're living in a world created by people who think like her.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:26 / 05.09.01
quote:Originally posted by todd:
In the Fountainhead, the main female character Dominique Fontaine, is totally frigid sexually until she is raped and dominated by the hero of the book, Howard Roark, who at that time is working in her father's granite mine. Dominique spends the better part of the book trying to destroy Roark because (a) she can't have anyone dominate her like that (b) She is in love with him, instantly (c) he and his work are too brilliant to be wasted on the common mass of society. Then she marries not one, but two of his bitterest enemies, the anti-Roarks, in a combination of masochism and desire to hurt him.


Um... you know, this alone has totally put me off reading any of her work for the time being...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:46 / 05.09.01
quote:Originally posted by The Flyboy:


Um... you know, this alone has totally put me off reading any of her work for the time being...


But, you know, its okay that he raped her because he knew that was what she really wanted and needed without her telling him. I mean, she did invite him over to fix stuff in her house, and I dont' know how much clearer one can get in signalling her sexual desire to be raped.
 
 
RiffRaff
17:22 / 05.09.01
Atlas Shrugged 2 - One Hour Later
 
 
YNH
18:34 / 05.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Nick:
Similarly, her materialism is zeitgeistly and probably a reaction to the Soviet Leninist/Stalinist worldview.


Okay, but I keep hating it when you lump thouse two together.
 
 
Ellis
19:10 / 05.09.01
Riffraff-

"That made me laugh so loud I woke my parents up. And they beat me. But it was worth it."
 
 
Ronald Thomas Clontle
19:41 / 05.09.01
quote:Originally posted by The Flyboy:


Um... you know, this alone has totally put me off reading any of her work for the time being...


funny you say that, as I've read a lot about Rand and Objectivism, but never her novels (i've read essays that she's written), and that bit made we actually want to get around to reading it... I may not agree with it, but I can't deny the allure of something that profoundly warped to me, especially since it was written by a woman.


There's a friend of mine that I had at school who I liked quite a bit, and was very fond of me as well, but I was very turned off by her intense love of Rand and how on occasion she would sniff derisively of all of the 'liberals' that we went to school with... that certainly killed any interest I had initially in dating her, for sure...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
19:44 / 05.09.01
todd:

quote:I don't agree with her view of human relationships at all. That doesn't mean I didn't *get* it.Actually, I don't think you do get it. Because she makes you sick, but she makes me cry. But there you go. I haven't read her for a while. If I have time, I'll read her again and see what happens.

quote:As for her materialism, it strikes me that Ayn Rand is probably the purest example of exactly what is wrong with the so-called "american dream" as well as a reactionary against the commies who stole her family livelihood.Wishful? She fits right in with Emerson, ribs shoulders with Thoreau, and is the mirror image of the immigrant left in the 30's. I think her upside is what's right with it and her downside is what's wrong. And the people who wrecked her life in Russia were no more communist than |George W., of course. They were totalitarians. And that's what she hates. She puts a lefty spin on it because that's how it was sold around her.

quote:this alone has totally put me off reading any of her work for the time being... [shrug] I urge you to reconsider. At the least, know your enemy. At the best, she has something worth saying.
 
 
Ellis
19:51 / 05.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Nick:
Because she makes you sick, but she makes me cry. But there you go. I haven't read her for a while.


Was that Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
20:04 / 05.09.01
Rand's view of love to my mind (or the love of Roark and Dominique) hinges around the fact that both of them totally deny that they need the other. Love, to Rand, should be a wholly voluntary thing that has nothing to do with dependence. Dominique, at the beginning of the book, tries to destroy Roark partly because she hates that he makes her feel like she needs him. Roark, being the model man in the Rand universe, doesn't need the love or respect of anyone. He may want certain things. He may even want to marry Dominique. But love is but another force of nature Rand has put at the command of the human ego. (see also the Momus song "I want you but I don't need you).I don't agree. There was a thread here a while back about "co-dependence", and a lot of what Rand would put under the weakness of needing is what I feel is an intrinsic part of love.
 
 
the Fool
23:22 / 05.09.01
The Fountainhead is often considered a 'must read' for architecture students. This is a bad thing. It makes them very arrogant and insular. The whole notion of the singular creative genius (who is above criticism)is a deeply flawed concept.

The fact that the main character was apparently based on Frank Lloyd Wright is quite telling. Genius - yes, but also a total bastard.
 
 
Ellis
05:42 / 06.09.01
quote:Originally posted by Nick:
Oh God.

I sense another article coming on.



Go for it
 
 
methylsalicylate
07:48 / 06.09.01
Not only are the 'techys' influenced by her, but others as well. Alan Greenspan was an acolyte, and later friend, of hers.

In defense of Rand, I first read her books at age twelve, and it was the first time it dawned on me that someone, somewhere might feel the same way about things (namely, religion) that I did. When I quit Objectivism altogether four years later, it was because the cult of Rand often took the place of religion in many of her followers' lives (to paraphrase Maugham, they threw off the name of god but not the rules nor the morality). Though in retrospect the Objectivists seem strange, adolescent and obsessed (and more than a few obsessive comic book readers among their ranks - not that it's a bad thing ), I still owe a lot of the person I am now, better or worse, to being exposed to her writing. More importantly, her arguments against certain philosophers and linguists, many of whom I had not heard of at 12, were the reasons I later picked up and studied those works.

The Simpsons did a brilliant spoof on Rand, in which Maggie is erolled in an Objectivist preschool where the walls feature posters that say things like 'A Is For A' and the babies have their pacifiers taken away. By forming a socialist collective, they overthrow the leaders and get the pacifiers back.

As regards her literary worth: the novels are rotten and overlong. Read 'Anthem': it's the shortest, and distills her feelings nicely.
 
 
.
07:48 / 06.09.01
Rand's theory of love is probably the most interesting thing in The Fountainhead. it seems to be a Nitzschean thing, with both parties wishing to have mastery over the other [the will to power and all that], but the point that todd makes above about Rand's analysis of true love (as requiring voluntary commitment and not need) does ring true with me. how many people do you know who are "in love" with someone just because they like them back, who are a reciprical relationship of needing love from the other, just because they can't be happy loving themselves? i am an unapologetic egoist (lets not confuse this with egocentric- the ego-centric's life certainly revolves around the attention of others), in that i am happy with who i am and do not require others approval. people feel threatened by egoists, people who don't require their approval, since the non-egoist can have no control over them, which is probably at least one reason people find Rand's opinion leaves a bad taste in their mouth. i'll stop there before this starts to look too much like a rant...
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:53 / 06.09.01
I read Fountainhead a few years ago and LOVED it...

I tend to agree with the concepts of "love with-out need" as well at the efforts of an individual vs. the "collective"

She's no Demon in my book... but some of her Rants WHERE painfull!!!

That book taught me how to read while i Drive...
YIKES
 
 
agapanthus
12:06 / 16.09.01
well, y'know . . . being co-opted [?] to lend legitimacy to the zealous, militarism of vengeance? ....
Ayn Rand

Not a direct link, but scroll down pare to bottom right hand corner: Ayn Rand Institute.

[ 16-09-2001: Message edited by: agsolutely ]
 
  

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