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Memory, skills and related issues (Non-debate thread, containing the concept and "rules" of the NDT)

 
  

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Perfect Tommy
06:10 / 29.12.02
(Heh. That makes me wonder if concept extraction can be seen in procedural terms...)
 
 
Persephone
11:43 / 29.12.02
(What is concept extraction?)

Is stability the same as dignity?

That's a fascinating question. Think about the classic gag of slipping on a banana peel. Loss of stability equals loss of dignity. But why is that? Why do we laugh?

But anyway, I do generally agree with the argument that diversity is a stronger basis than singularity. I mean, that's pretty much a truism to me --but of course my motto is, we hold no truths to be self-evident. (Well no, that's not true.) I'm toying in my mind with an idea that diversity perhaps does not have the appearance of stability, and how does that affect people's choices?

And on a different note, I think that's what's so powerful about falling in skating and trapeze...
 
 
No star here laces
12:41 / 29.12.02
The diversity of skills and learning to learn thing is fascinating. How about if we started a thread in the gathering for a sort of "skills swap-meet" program? We could all post up a skill that we are willing to teacj someone in exchange for them teaching us a new skill. That way everyone would learn new stuff, we'd have a cool barter thing going on, and maybe we'd all become super-fast learners and therefore masters of the universe...
 
 
Perfect Tommy
00:56 / 30.12.02
(Concept extraction is a term I picked up from the lateral thinking folks: it's pulling the basic ideas out of a specific example. Like, a fork contains the concept of "thing that puts food in your mouth" so it is related to other eating utensils, hands, straws, etc. But another concept that can be extracted is the shape of a fork, so it's also related to roads, fingers, teeth, etc.)
 
 
Char Aina
02:44 / 30.12.02
byron, why dont we just teach it anways?

i for one will share anything clever as i realise its cleverness. right now all i can think of are sex tips, and i dont want to patronise my audience.

my starter for 3 points?

if you are with a lady, be less direct. tease more. you can ALWAYS tease more.
 
 
illmatic
09:56 / 31.12.02
Hey Byron, I think that's a really cool idea. Though, I'd be very interested in actually picking apart the mechanics of learning - not just new skills, but how and why we learn - If I'm not mistaken NLP address this whole thing directly.

On the subject of learning unconciously or the dichotomy between concious learning and unconcious skill - I think this whole thing is the essence of magick, really. All magickal systems seem to have the idea of letting go, letting things move outside of your concious control, built into them. "For pure Will, unassuaged of purpose is in every way perfect" - Crowley. By using the term "pure Will" here, I think he's evoking the same purity of intention that Cusm brings up in the Zen skating idea above.
 
 
illmatic
12:54 / 31.12.02
Maybe I should make a skills offer: if this comes together, happy to share the "skill" of meditation - seems appropriate to the thread. and is easy as piss with a bit of practice. Got some other interesting ideas to bounce around with this practice as well.
 
 
illmatic
12:56 / 31.12.02
Please note I'm not trying to turn this into a big "magick meet" or whatever - be very interested inpicking up other, more, ummm, "secular" skills for myself.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:04 / 31.12.02
that would be toksik's department, i guess

Hmm. trying to think of skills I could teach... and it's tricky! not sure if I *have* skills. and trapeze could be a little tricky...

maybe some of the experiential work I've done in counselling study could be interesting for other people.... theres some v. interesting body language/body awareness stuff which is fun to play with... and , Illmatic, is one way of looking at how we percieve/learn/respond to information...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:18 / 31.12.02
I like this idea but genuinely having nothing useful to bring to the table, but I'd like to learn some of the stuff mentioned here, specially meditation...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
17:29 / 01.01.03
It's a good idea - might be a bit unwieldy in practice, especially for some of the more, er, energetic skills. I can do you several styles of calligraphic hand - bring your own nibs - and basic heraldic blazons. But perhaps another thread for this?
 
 
No star here laces
09:57 / 03.01.03
Will start a thread in gathering...

Can i go back to crunch's post about Marx? I'm interested in which historical form of government people think has provided the most varied life for those that lived under it. Perhaps this could explain the success of capitalism - it provides a relatively varied life, therefore making people more productive?
 
 
Persephone
20:49 / 04.01.03
So I was thinking about this idea that people seem to have that they have no skills. I wouldn't say that this is a universal syndrome, but it's not uncommon. And it struck me that one could really go with this in two directions that this thread has already taken.

One is the possibly Pollyannaish view that but of course everyone has skills! Every one of us is good at something, let's think about what we're good at!! But this need not just be a feel-good exercise in I'm-okay-you're-okay, if one considers "procedural" learning and memory. People have talked about physical skills and how the learning of these skills was, in a sense, a process of making these skills second nature. You only got good when you weren't aware of them. Actually, I shouldn't limit this to physical skills because there's also Kit-Cat's example of reading, which is perfectly described as second nature --if you can read, that is. Obviously no one mentions reading as a skill for exchange, because everyone reads here.

So it's possible that people who say that they don't have skills are not low in skills, but low in skill-awareness. Because of the transparent nature, perhaps, of skills.

Or perhaps they don't have *unusual* skills, which sort of leads to my next point:

Do you think this could be a real effect of capitalism --i.e., that we actually do have fewer procedural-type skills? Cf. in the consumption and disillusionment thread, grant makes a link between an apparent slide in consumption and the slide towards a service economy. Which I think is a fact of capitalism? Do we think of "skills" more as something that produces goods, rather than as something that produces services? Or are service-type skills more incommunicable, unteachable? It's said that we live in an Information (Episodic) Age: if we can't keep up with the information side of things, then what's happening on the process side?

As regards your question, Byron... I'm sort of stuck on that. I don't know that I think that capitalism provides for a more varied life. I think it does make people more productive in the sense of whittling people down to perform more efficiently in the larger machine... but that means less varied, doesn't it? Then on the other hand, there's leisure time and that's... hobbies. Maybe it's all about hobbies...
 
 
alas
16:48 / 07.01.03
i'm very interested in the learning of gender-related behaviors issue and the issue of cultural systems producing skilled people.

on the first issue: I remember learning to cry at movies by forcing myself to to cry at "Benji" when I was about 8 years old because I went to it with my friends and they were all crying and I felt not "girlish" enough because I wasn't crying so I thought about something really sad like someone in my family dying and I was able to produce the tears.
Now I find it difficult not to cry during sad movies. Very difficult, even when it's inconvenient like when I'm teaching. I don't know how to unlearn that procedural knowledge, and its strongly tied with the heterosexist force of our culture.

on the second issue: the increasing focus on "convenience" does interfere with skills production. There are so many tasks that used to be learned and learnable--e.g., working on a car--that are almost impossible to learn now: my husband has a new Beetle, and it's almost impossible to change your own oil on the thing. The companies are deliberately making skills obsolete. I'd argue we're increasingly alienated from the machines, the tools of our daily lives.

Are these two issues related? hmmm...
alas
 
  

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