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Memory, skills and related issues (Non-debate thread, containing the concept and "rules" of the NDT)

 
  

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No star here laces
14:39 / 11.12.02
So this is an experiment. The mode of discussion on barbelith is very debate-oriented at the mo. Especially in the Head Shop. We mostly sit around and pick holes in each others' statements and sometime this is interesting and sometimes it isn't. Well this thread is a discussion about stuff. Doesn't matter what stuff, but it's a non-debate, 'kay? Nobody wins, no point of view is proven. Take ideas and move 'em on, take ideas and mutate them, take tangents. But don't backtrack by contesting a point. Just roll with it. The central focus of the discussion does not have to remain constant, only the style remains constant. If you like, this is like a non-fictional narrative corpse...

Let me begin. Does everybody know about procedural versus episodic memory? Procedural memory is like learning to ride a bike, episodic memory is like remembering what happens next in a movie, or knowing who invented the theory of chemical valency or somesuch. Episodic memory is accessible through our conscious minds, but procedural memory isn't - we can remember 'learning' facts but not learning skills. And this leads us into 'episodic lives' if you like - an obsession with goals, facts, values, predictions. So what would a 'procedural life' be like, eh?
 
 
Persephone
14:53 / 11.12.02
Probably, um, a lot like mine. I'm fairly obsessed with procedure. I have three separate calendars controlling my life, not to mention the *cough* database that I made for my things to do list. Pretend I didn't mention that. I actively memorize routines to get me through certain stretches of the day. I shipwreck a lot, though.
 
 
gridley
15:20 / 11.12.02
I'm fairly anti-calendar. If something doesn't come to my attention or memory naturally, then it probably isn't worth doing. Obviously there are exceptions to this, like planning to meet friends on a certain date or scheduling the arrival of a new dryer, and though I force myself to become more procedural on those ocassions, it always feels foreign and wrong and limiting to me.

I think an episodic life sounds ideal, though I'm not sure I grasp the concept.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:43 / 11.12.02
Interesting. Pushed for time, but your 'procedural life' sounds alot like what counselling would call 'process'. That is, a way of being that sees the journey/process as being *as* important as where you're going/where you've been.

Will think about this more and get back.
 
 
Persephone
16:52 / 11.12.02
Seriously, I would love to get into the head of an unstructured-time person. See what you see.

I just thought of an example of procedural learning/memory, id est when I was taking ice skating lessons. It's not so much for me that I don't remember learning how to do, say, a back inside turn. I certainly remember falling on my ass about a hundred times, and I remember the moment that I got it... after which I could just do them.

The thing is, it seems like I can remember the things *around* learning that back inside turn. But even at the time, I couldn't say what happened to make me "get it" ...for weeks, I just couldn't. Then one day, I just could.

Anyway, I recommend it as a good thing for the very rational-dependent --among which I include myself. It's something that you know has happened, but you can't see or say how it happened. It sort of gives you insight the next time you hear someone say, "I can't explain it, it just is." Really the closest thing to faith that I've personally experienced.
 
 
No star here laces
22:15 / 11.12.02
Definitely! There are so many things, it seems to me, that work the way Persephone describes - things that work in spite of (or maybe because of the absence of) monitoring by the conscious mind. Getting good at a physical skill can work this way, but so is going to sleep at night, in a different sort of way. You have to just kind of stop thinking about it, but not think about not thinking about it. As far as I understand, meditation is a bit like this too. Does that mean you could learn to ice skate quicker if you meditated while you were skating?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:21 / 11.12.02
Poooss-sibly, but combining two methods of accessing this part of your learning isn't neccessarily going to make them 'double up'....

But a couple of people have touched on something that really interests me; been thinking alot about body memory and physical learning processes recently... this in the context specifically of therapeutic practice, but generally also....

I'm finding learning trapeze fascinating for this, my body seems to 'know' how to do certain things that my conscious mind is terrified of... am beginning to get a tiny sense of body awareness, being directed by my body and my mind/emotions (this stuff is terrifying at times!) are learning to be led by my body...

Am beginning to 'listen' to my body, and in fact it's totally new for me to be aware that it's talking....

Have found also with alot of the counselling 'study' i've done, that the experiential/workshoppy/tying 'work' into one's own issues/past way of working has produced a very different sense of how this stuff works than I think I would have had if i'd learnt theoretically...

Find it *very hard* to put into words (which feels an unusual and productive experience for me), but it's affected the way I see myself living dramatically

Make sense?
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:23 / 11.12.02
eg with some of the leaps, 'Magic Moments' if you like I've experienced in counselling and couns. training, I find myself waving arms around, talking about magic and transcendence... Agree with what you seem to be saying, persephone, about faith... revelations that've come out of workshops about myself, the world, how people fit together are the cloest I've ever come to faith...
 
 
gridley
19:09 / 13.12.02
I totally agree, Bengali. I think our bodies instinctively know how to do a lot of things that our minds might not be so sure of. Running, making love, climbing... but acrobatics, that's fascinating. Maybe a body memory from when we lived in the trees.
 
 
Persephone
19:41 / 13.12.02
You're learning trapeze, plums? As in flying trapeze?? Is that part of the counselling workshops? No it's not, is it. What sort of stuff do you do in the workshops? You're training to become a counsellor, right?

Also am very interested in how having difficulty putting something into words is unusual and productive for you. Just because I have such immense difficulty, it would be a nice story for bedtime. I don't fret about it *too* much. I enjoy my own experiences and insights, after all. Only one does feel cut off sometimes.

Does that mean you could learn to ice skate quicker if you meditated while you were skating?

The people who could not learn to skate in our class, you could see in their eyes they could never stop *thinking* about what they were supposed to be doing. It does sort of help to blank your mind. Although you do have to pay attention on some level, especially as you have to practice amongst nine years olds whizzing around. But a lot of things that you do skating are controlled by the muscles in your feet, and I know that I don't have conscious control of my feet. Think about that. Legs, yes. Toes, yes. Feet... see now, I don't think so. Do you?

And to throw something totally else on the pile... how about knitting? If you think about it, knitting's a fairly complicated motion set. Worst thing to do when you're knitting is to think about what you're doing. Most annoying thing is having to stop and count stitches. And in fact there is such as thing as knitting meditation.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:44 / 13.12.02
I find that with cooking, if I think about what I'm doing it all goes wrong and I burn everything, if I let my hands make the food it's all fine. It's like something completely basic and disconnected from the thinking part of me takes over. I don't pay any attention to clocks anymore or what it says on packets I just instinctively time everything and it all works out... the memory of the many times I've done things before living at the back of my mind I guess.

I can't ice skate on my own, if someone else holds on to me with their little finger I'm fine, I'm definitely inhibited by too much thought.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:50 / 13.12.02
(nope, sorry if confusing, workshops are counselling study stuff... trapeze is 'separate')

I don't mean that I'm at all able to vocalise my bodiy/emotional states... although making a bit of progress with the emotional ones... but that I have a facility with words which is very tied up with being able to control things, 'solve' them , give them a narrative and a neat ending, and that I can talk about emotions till the cows come home in order to push away experiencing them (indeed, this has in the past, and still is at times, practically reflex for me)

and that I find the linguistic breakdown/shattering I'm experience symptomatic of learning to relax this control, this sense of solving... to look and live more open-endedly... I'm a slightly recovering over-rationalist, and this process is helping...

hope that makes sense.


Knitting is a *great* example, that moment when you have to 'snap back' and count/make up lost stitches is something I've experiencesd, and it's excruciating.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:51 / 13.12.02
oh, and static trapeze atm, Persephone, but hopefully we're getting a flying trapeze rigged next term!
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
19:50 / 14.12.02
Is that part of the counselling workshops?

I wish!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:45 / 14.12.02
Funnily enough, the idea of having to stop and count your stitches ties in neatly to another thing that has been discussed here on Barbelith recently, it being the idea of Heideggerian authenticity - essentially, that if everything id "ready to hand" - the knitting needles, the pattern, the physical process of knitting - then the world can be interacted with in a particular, preordained fashion and all is good. If, however, it turns out that, say, the knitting pattern was only "present at hand" (don't make me remember the German; you won't like me when I remember the German), then we get a tiny moment of angst, where the performer of the process of knitting has to stop and examine their actions within a wider context....
 
 
telyn
21:02 / 16.12.02
I have found that I play music best if I can let my unconcious control my actions. For me to be able to do this I must think that I can play the music well enough.

If I can do this, then I can stop concentrating on what I am doing physically and instead think about the music as something that exists outside of me, I'm absorbed by it and not directly controlling it. I've heard this state described as 'flow' - you're not making the music, the music is coming through you. Music is definitely a procedural study.

What is entirely disruptive is angst about any element of the performance. If you stop to consider any potential mistake, then you could lose the thread, lose the concentration on the level you need.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:32 / 16.12.02
Am I the only one who does a lot of thinking to analyse physical tasks then? Yes, I suppose so. Given that I never stop thinking, it seems somehow natural. There is an unconscious element for me, I just like to guide it a bit more. I certainly learnt to juggle like that - not that I'm very good, I suppose. Mind you, I can cook quite well, though I've never been a fan of recipes per se.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
23:21 / 16.12.02
Interesting. Don't think that i'm *not* thinking/analysing when I'm circusing, so much as that the relationship between this and *acting* is a really different one to the ones ive been used to in the past. Except perhaps, as I've said elsewhere, when I played football seriously, and was thinking and acting on my own, with my team, trying to bond with them, act in the present (doing anything else doesn't get you very far in a football match) and yet maintain some overall awareness of the progress of teh match... and subsequently try and learn from each of these 'present' experiences for the next tune,
 
 
Jackie Susann
00:55 / 17.12.02
One thing I like about the idea of procedural memory is that it lets you think that a whole range of things you take for granted as "self" may be learned; just because you don't remember learning it, a moment of learning, doesn't mean there wasn't one. To take a somewhat obvious example, it seems to slip around a genetic/cultural argument about the origins of sexuality. Like learning to ride a bike, we approach desire not as a destiny to fulfil, but something we wobble towards, a mesh of attempts that meander, careen and crash in different directions until, sooner or later, we find we've always had a sexual identity. Nobody remembers becoming gay or straight but some of us remember a moment of realisation which comes after the becoming - that's what I am, that's what I can do.

I remember, when I was coming out, trying to sit with my legs crossed above the knee - a gay gesture, I thought. I don't remember when I learnt, consistently, to do it, but I know I do it now.

Perhaps I haven't always been me; perhaps at some point I learnt to be me, and didn't notice; perhaps I was or could have been someone else; perhaps I am; perhaps identity is a learned habit, a habit of saying I.
 
 
Persephone
01:55 / 17.12.02
Yes!! God, there's so many interesting directions to go in here... but definitely, yes yes yes to Crunchy. That is totally at the heart of all my routines. It's the ones that I'm memorizing that give me trouble, but the ones I've memorized are just the way I am. I could give a hundred examples, but I don't want to give away *all* my secrets. But I will say... point number one, I have to lose ten pounds. And this is the non-debate thread, so there's no arguing with that --ha ha. Point number two, I know that I'm going to have to become aware again of fat grams & reasonable portion sizes and that it's going to be a fucking ordeal. And I pray to God that I will learn to become the kind of person who naturally eats healthily and enjoys exercise... at least for long enough to get down to 125 and stay there for the rest of my thirties.

Also plums, there is falling involved in trapeze? And you have a net? Do you think --and this is a bit related to not being able to articulate-- that there is an element of controlled out-of-control that you wouldn't want to miss? I mean, it's obviously got to be great and empowering to fly through the air and be caught safely. But you also get to experience Aaaagghh, right? Husb always used to say I was never happy at a skating session if I didn't get in at least one horrible crash.

And Haus, out of curiosity, are there value judgments pertaining to "ready to hand" versus "present at hand" ...looking that over again, that also seems relevant to dieting. Having to stop and count fat grams --ugh, it's just the same.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
17:26 / 17.12.02
Pushed for time, but yes, there is falling, and thikning about it, the drops are some of my favourite bits. We have crashmats and will 'spot' each other if we need it (ie standing underneath if someone's dropping, to catch them), but keeping that in my head when I'm teetering on the edge of a drop, trying to make myself fall, is pretty difficult.

And I have fallen off, everyone does... getting back on and doing the same thing and succeeding is an amazing rush. The fear/adrenaline dynamic is definitely a big part of the appeal for me... it's like a drug...

Think you're spot on with the 'controlled out of controll-ness' thing. There's a very similar thing in my group therapy class, of being able to be emotionally out of control, but with safety mechanisms in place, or with some control through structure...

Talking of which, must rush...
 
 
Linus Dunce
17:39 / 17.12.02
Ooh, this is interesting. I think being able to visualise correctly a task before attempting it gives you an edge (assuming you have some degree of coordination). It would explain trapezing prodigies. Also why skilled knitters, mechanics, administrators etc. like their tools to stay where they left them -- if something's missing they can't visualise the process of finding it because they don't know where it is, thus part of the overall process remains unforeseen. In a similar way, an experienced dieter with a "feel" for the calorific values of food would be completely thrown by the possibility of cooking with, say, fat-free oil. IIRC, visualisation can be a counselling technique too.

Persephone, I'd love to know what fields you have in your personal db. Is it relational? Would you consider posting a copy somewhere (with dummy/no data, of course)?
 
 
Persephone
20:55 / 17.12.02
*shrieks and gets under blanket*

(You were supposed to pretend I didn't mention that!!)

(Yes, it is a relational database. I did it in Access, so it's pretty remedial. I don't really want to post it, partly because personal things are sort of hard-wired into the db structure and not just the data & partly because all of my databases are stuck together with chewing gum and tape and are databases that only a mother could love. But essentially, I have things broken down into areas and subareas, then projects, then tasks. Tasks is the main data table, and the fields are just task description, task status, responsibility, and date due or completed. There's an entry screen, and there are reports that get printed out with the week's tasks. And the reason I did it is because there's too many things in life that I want to do and not enough time to do them, and this is supposed to help me learn how much I can take on without combusting. And to make sure that the bathroom gets cleaned every now and then.)
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:08 / 17.12.02
Reading is an interesting one to consider in this, I think. Hypothesis: most of the time reading takes place on a procedural level while we assess the meaning on a more analytical level (this is off the top of my head, I hope it isn't totally absurd) - and it's only when the meaning is disrupted that the procedural nature of reading becomes apparent to us.

This came to mind because I'd been thinking about my palaeography in the context of this thread, and how it works. When you've been doing it for a while, you begin to find that, rather than puzzling over the shapes of the letters, you just sort of zone in on the writing and read the document; and it's only when that state of reading is disrupted that you have to halt and consider what you might be looking at - and that consideration can take a lot longer than one might expect. The other day I was going through a manuscript about a county assize, and came across a word which I knew had to be something like 'Judges', but for the life of me I couldn't make it say that, and it took me a good fifteen minutes to work out that it was 'Justices' (and that came to me when I was looking at a totally different part of the document, and when I looked back at it of course it said 'Justices', how could I have been so daft).

The other thing it made me think of was the character of Mr Krook in Bleak House (I knew reading that would come in handy), who spends his leisure tracing letter over and over again but never actuially manages to read; and I wondered whether the speed at which one learns to read, and the level of difficulty one has with it, affects it in terms of procedure - say I had learnt to read at ten, and with difficulty, would I regard reading as an learned memory rather than simply as something one does?
 
 
telyn
23:31 / 17.12.02
I would be interested to know if learning to recognise and use symbols (and so read) had its own cut-off point in time, like learning a spoken language.

If you learn a language before the age of 12, then it gets hardwired into your brain. You understand what the words mean without having to translate, to think about it. Language learnt after that gets stored elsewhere in the brain, and you learn the language as a method of translation rather than something integral to you. Obviously you can learn that other language very well, but it is never quite as fast or as instinctive as those you learnt when young.
 
 
No star here laces
19:17 / 24.12.02
Well both of those last two posts nag at something that's been bugging me for a while.

We all know that as we get older our minds get less flexible, and we're less able to learn new skills. But given how plastic and adaptable our brains seem to be and given that we can all think of loads of examples of old people who buck the trend and seem to be just as good as young people at learning new stuff - is there a way we can train our minds to be more flexible? We ought to be able to get better at learning - to improve our meta-learning if you like. I think that'd be the ultimate skill. The frustrating thing about the world to me is that as you get better and better at something, the more obsolete your skills become, the more we invent automated technologies to take over the skills we'd acquired.

(like wasn't it annoying when you got predictive text on your mobile, cos you were so proud about how fast you could text and how you could do it without looking, and suddenly that skill was redundant...)

I suppose one way to do this would be to keep trying to learn new things - as in linguistics, when someone has learnt enough languages, picking up a new one becomes easier. To test yourself by chucking loads of different stuff at your brain - martial arts one minute, maths the next, serbo-croat after that and tantric sex as a bit of a treat at the end of the day.

mmm. Sounds like a career plan...
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:46 / 24.12.02
martial arts one minute, maths the next, serbo-croat after that and tantric sex as a bit of a treat at the end of the day.

This is reminiscent of Marx's famous description of a communist life - "society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have in mind, without ever becoming hunter, herdsman or critic." Maybe capitalist valorisation is linked to episodic memory - the assembly line, as the microcosm of capital's history, a set of points to be mastered and overseen from the perspective of technical rationality. Revolution as something we forget we've learnt...
 
 
Persephone
02:15 / 25.12.02
Cf also, Lord Peter Wimsey:

"You've got an official mind, Charles," replied his friend. "Your official passion for evidence is gradually sapping your brilliant intellect and smothering your instincts. You're over-civilised, that's your trouble."

Re: speed of reading, my father had a mania for mind-improvement courses--you know, for kids!-- and the speed-reading course was all about not reading word-by-word, but rather grabbing up phrases at a time. You were supposed to group together "meaning units" or something like that.

Oh wait-- you mean speed of *learning* ...well anyway, you see, this is my problem. I learned to read with no brakes; but the thing is, you miss things when you're going so fast. I seriously think is is a big part of the problem I've been having with reading.

God I just remembered, Dad had this contraption... it was a plastic box with a narrow opening across the middle where a word would be displayed, and it had a little shutter that went down over the opening that he could close with a little rubber bulb at different speeds. So you had a second, then half a second... I think it went down to an eighth of a second... to register in your brain what the word was.
 
 
cusm
07:35 / 25.12.02
You know, this all sounds a lot of Zen to me. Of course you can't remember how you learned to skate. At that moment, you became the skate, the skater, and the action of skating all at once. Flow. Zen. Same shit. Your conscious analytical mind shut up for a moment and you just did it. And then, having done, it, could do it again.

Now, I've thought about this sort of zen skill in a different way, as automatic/instinctive vs conscious. The whole "you are the bow, the arrow, and the action of firing the arrow" bit smacks of letting your subconscious mind process and execute the action without any interference from the conscious mind, so the action/skill simply happens as if automaticly, or instinctively. This seems the point of much of zen, acting and living in this state where body mind and what you are doing are all one, a seemless flow of instict as you do while simply being without the need to analyze what it is you are doing, just enjoying the moment of doing it.

But back to topic, I see the process as one of programming and execution of the skill. When learning, you are using episodic thought, conscious, analitical, and the left hemisphere activity. But in doing, once the skill is learned, you don't think of the steps any more, you just execute them from instinct. Procedureal, instinctivem, right hemisphere.

I noted the hemisphere bit when I observed activities I could or could not do with my off (left) hand. I noticed that I had no problems doing things with my left hand, so long as they were pre-learned skills. It runs fine on automatic. Typing, for example, or driving. Yet, if I focus on the left had to make it try to do something new, it is very difficult. Yet, the right hand is much easier to control this way. I recalled that the left hemisphere of the brain controlls the right hand, and vice versa. So therefore, it must be that the right hand is better at episodic tasks, and the left at procedural, as each is ruled by that hemisphere which specializes in this type of thinking. So, its not that the off hand is inherently more clumsy, its just harder to train episodicly.
 
 
cusm
08:09 / 25.12.02
Here's something to chew on. Dance. You receive input in the form of music, and your body moves in response. You don't think of how or in what step, you just do it. Flow. If you stop to think about how you are moving, the magic is gone, and you become either clumsy or mechanical looking.

Note I refer to more freeform dance, jamming to some house or something, than something structured like a waltz or balet. I think this is another fine example of procedural thinking.

Funk can not be understood, only experienced.

*ponders the zen of funk*

"...and then James Brown screamed, and I was enlightened."
 
 
Persephone
11:43 / 25.12.02
It applies to choreographed dance, too. The last time I was in a show... hope this doesn't turn into too long of a story... I was one of the schoolgirls, which meant few lines and five dances. Which we had to learn in practically two days, since the original choreographer dropped out halfway through and the new Nazi choreographer wasn't getting paid enough to spend any more time with us. So you were having to learn so fast, you were aware that you were actively shoving what you were learning down to that subconscious level and really skipping over any part where you were conscious of what you were doing. And that was the only prayer you had to look like you knew what the hell you were doing when you got on stage. And then one of the other non... fricking... dancing actors appoints himself as some sort of sub-director, and suddenly tells you one... week... before... the show that your ball change needs to happen on the upbeat. I didn't even know it was called a ball change, that where I was. And the whole goddamned dance just fell to pieces.

There was an good article in the NYer around this time, too. It may have been by Malcolm Gladwell, it was that sort of article. But it was an analysis of "choking" (overthinking during crisis) vs. "panicking" (shutting off thinking during crisis), about the latter there was a horrible story about a group of paratroopers on a training flight. There weren't enough right-handed parachutes to go around, so the last paratrooper was given a left-handed parachute and reminded that his pull cord was on the left side, not the right. Guy understands, jumps out of the plane and plummets. When they find him on the ground, the fabric on his jumping outfit is shredded on the right side down to his flesh.

But actually the reason I got up to post this morning was to say something about Lord Peter Wimsey... a while ago, plums started a thread about why Barbelith is a haven of Dorothy L. Sayers freaks. And it is a question, because the more you read the Wimsey books the more you realize how problematic they are. But for me, they're *really* hard to analyze --partly because they make me inordinately happy and I'm not sure why; and I'm not sure that I want to know why, because I *like* being that happy.

Here's the thing, though. Theory: I was shaky on those dances because I had *no* episodic awareness --to say nothing of memory-- of them at any time. So when left brain was called on to look at the ball change on the upbeat, left brain had no idea. It's deliberate frivolity when Peter Wimsey says that he's a child of Nature, this is a man who has a walking stick with ruler markings. He certainly does have an empirical mind... but he also has another mind, more whimsical and very open to inspiration. That's his deadly combination. He's really... complete. (I think this is also true re: his performance of gender, btw. Also Harriet Vane's.)

Last thing: I think that one of the ironic effects of capital is that people have been cut off from episodic experiences, basically as a result of division of labor... but this I will have to work out a bit more...
 
 
No star here laces
16:48 / 28.12.02
If you're only doing one job all your life, I guess you only get to be good at one range of closely related procedures, so certainly our specialisation would prevent us becoming more flexible, more well-rounded people.

I wonder if this has anything to do with attitudes to aging? I mean if you're doing one thing all your life and becoming procedurally more and more adept at that one thing, then you're going to end up with quite a fixed view of things. It would seem like you'd found the one best way to do things, in your own experience, and make it harder to admit of other solutions. So this might be why our culture's attitude to age has become more condescending as we've become more industrialised and more specialised.

But then with the new temp-slave economy everybody is going to have lots of jobs, and maybe that'll change. We might see more flexible old people. Yoga'd help with that too.

D'you think there's more dignity inherent in variety?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:30 / 28.12.02
That's an interesting question. I suspect that, like so many things, the generations caught on the cusp of the change are those most likely to be screwed over by it. Unfortunately it seems likely that we are entering a phase where social and economic changes are frequent, which may in the long run have a rather destabilising effect on the inhabitants of this century.

Case in point: I received a month or two ago the most heartbreaking CV ever. It was from a guy who had worked for the Post Office for thirty or so years, and was now looking for some other job involving the delivery of post, internally or externally, and was written on a sheet of A4 plain paper ripped in half, with lines drawn on in pencil and the details in biro. And, I have to confess, I read it and tears sprang to my eyes, because here was a fellow who had got his job in the expectation of never needing another one, and had never learned skills like writing a CV, because needing to write a CV had just never seemed relevant. I hope that he will over time be taught those skills by his local authority. I hope desperately that things will work out for him. Plus, I just want to give him a big hug, which is probably very patronising.

(Moderator hat - as far as I can tell this thread is itself an experiment in process rather than a discussion of any actual question. I'm wondering whether this makes it better suited tothe Head Shop or the Conversation or, indeed, the Creation. In order to avoid threadrot, I would ask people to message myself or another moderator with their thoughts)
 
 
Perfect Tommy
00:31 / 29.12.02
Genetic variety creates more stability in agriculture; the Irish potato famine, f'rinstance, was largely because of the genetically uniform crop. Is stability the same as dignity?

The focus of American schools is "What Are You Going To Be When You Grow Up?" One thing and one thing only. Art and music programs are slashed because they're not very good for making a living with. Only the "talented" should participate in art and music, because only the "talented" will be able to make a living at them. Art for its own sake draws blank looks.

Then, when the "What You Grew Up To Be" industry collapses, the workers haven't learned how to diversify, and they're fucked. I suppose we could be "a phase where social and economic changes are frequent", but on the other hand, are we entering a phase which is less like artificial industrial overspecialization and more like natural diverse human activity? Hunt an antelope, build a hut, pick some berries, make a pot...
 
 
cusm
05:06 / 29.12.02
As someone who work sin the IT industry, I'll have to say that while specialization has its uses, the most successful person is the one who doesn't so much know specific skills, but knows how to learn new skills quickly. A sysadmin put on a contract may have to deal with any one of hundreds of possible systems with even more varience in their configuration. One has to be able to identify the system, look up and learn its command syntax and overall structure, and then work with it to achieve the intended goal. A person who is only trained on one system can not do this job, they would have to look for another place that used that same system. Fortunately, as you learn many different platforms, they all start to look alike after awhile, and this sort of thing becomes a lot easier. Same for programming languages. You start to understand the overall structure of logical language itself, and then its only a matter of translation to learn another.

What this demonstrates is an abstract type of learning, where you understand the general fundamentals of what you are working with, rather than going about it in a task-oriented manner. Case in point, my mom. When she learns a new program, say a word processor, she has to label everything and note how to do each task in rote detail. So, if you ask her to say, bullet a paragraph, she'll know exactly how to do it. But if presented with a new task, she's lost. She isn't able to think through the abstract structure, check under the format menu for something that looks like it'll work, test about and find the right procedure. She needs the wrote detail in the help files to get through it.

Task oriented thought is a form of procedural thought. It certainly appears that as we grow older we use this mode more and have greater difficulty remainig flexible enough to grasp the abstract. Comparing younger students with older folks going back to class for a new career demonstrates this as well. You can tell by how their notebooks are marked up in color coded indicies and exaustive detail, while the kids may or may not even go to the lectures.

I thik the ability to understand things on the abstract conceptial level is a sign of the ability of intelligence, and it worries me somewhat that it seems this ability is diminished with age. Procedural is very important, but without the abstract, it is extremely limiting.
 
  

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