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The Two Towers

 
  

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that
13:00 / 19.12.02
I saw it yesterday. Found it less of a drag than I found the first, though I think I liked it less. However, I liked the way it started, with Gandalf and the Balrog, though I still think the Balrog doesn't really look like a Balrog. Liked Gollum, but then, I've always liked Gollum - his voice was great - never really thought of him as having a variant of Multiple Personality Disorder before, but that's really brought out in the film. Slash-o-rama with regard to Sam and Frodo 'your Sam, Mr. Frodo'....looking forward to the Very Secret Diaries take on it. Not sure that the Arwen/Eowyn situation doesn't lead Aragorn into a grey moral area though, think they may have shot themselves in the foot a little with that... Loved Gandalf the White, thought he was very cool and self-assured and just generally great.

Isn't Shelob in TTT though, bookwise?
 
 
The Natural Way
13:05 / 19.12.02
Yes. I think Pete's trying to keep Frodo and Sam's journey interesting and watchable - hence Osgiliath this time around and Shelob at the beginning of the next film.
 
 
that
13:48 / 19.12.02
Ah. Fair 'nuff...
 
 
Jack Fear
14:22 / 19.12.02
Stretching out the journey in Mordor, more like, since the destruction of the Ring will be the climax of the third film, and the Scouring of the Shire has been cut entirely.

Which, to me, rather seems to miss the point of the book thematically.

I dunno—I can see why they did it, from a structural viewpoint: RotK is an oddly structured book. A literal translation of it to the screen would throw away the destruction of the Ring, which is ostensibly the climax of the entire trilogy, in the first hour, leaving the rest of it as a long anticlimax.

But it depends upon whether you view the books as the story of Middle-Earth as awhoile, or as a story about hobbits: the big people's story ends with the destruction of the ring, but the hobbits' story ends back in the Shire (or in Frodo's case, in his departure from the Grey Havens).

Roger Ebert has lamented the change in the focus in the translation to the screen—an increased focus on Men which essentially makes the hobbits into supporting players. That's the way the movie has positioned itself, and it's entirely understandable—so cutting the Shire sequence out of the screenplay was probablky the only way out of that particular corner.
 
 
grant
14:48 / 19.12.02
No Scouring?


I'm gonna talk to my lawyers about this one.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:58 / 19.12.02
That's what I hear, anywez. But, y'know, it's the Internet: it's anybody guess...
 
 
The Natural Way
15:02 / 19.12.02
Hmmm, I think the no-scouring things pretty much confirmed. I read an interview with Pete where he talked about it....
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:15 / 19.12.02
My mother had to go see it last night with my little brother. She echoed my review of the Fellowship: An hour and a half too long, boring beyond all belief, no characters, just scene after scene of pointless battles. I will never, ever understand why these films are getting decent reviews for anything other than Jackson's technical filmmaking prowess.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:22 / 19.12.02
Every party needs a pooper, dunnit?
 
 
The Natural Way
15:24 / 19.12.02
But I like Flux, so we'll smile and be nice. Oi, You over there! No fighting!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:30 / 19.12.02
Well, I figured there should be some kind of counterpoint. Go along, don't mind me. I'm still holding a grudge for the three and a half hours I wasted when I saw Fellowship last year. I'm not kidding when I say it was the worst film I've ever paid to see in a theatre.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
16:04 / 19.12.02
Ok Fluxy fella, Im a big fan of the books (or was as a yute) and went to see the film...I found that I judged it fromt the viewpoint of How will people uninterested in the books, never read 'em, don't intend to, but whats all the fuss about? going to find this film? (hey, great grammar there!)

Can't argue with you on that count. There is not nearly enough time to establish any depth in the characterisation of so many players, and such a vast story, and the FX fest just comes across as yet another Creature Feature (but not all that whizz-bang by modern standards). Gladiator, for example, had far greater emotional impact etc.

On the other hand, get lost fuckbake, its a classic!
 
 
Aertho
17:33 / 19.12.02
Okay, I'm a bit on the Flux-ish side of things today. I've never read the books, and I don't think I should have to in order to apreciate a story in its cinematic portrayal. I agree there were problems with TTT, and I'll list them in personal importance:

1. Role of Women in ensemble casts
I know that there really aren't women characters in any of the trilogy, but even in the first movie, I could feel myslef asking "how would this have been different if there had been women in the original Fellowship?" Arwen did her job, Galadriel freaked us out for no real reason, and now Eowyn is the I wanna-be-a-independant-woman-but who's-that-hunk-over-there? girl. Yes, this is me talking, but the story feels weak for the LACK OF ESTROGEN. A friend once told me that they don't make movies about women. LOTR movies are examples of that.

2. Good vs Evil in the 21st Century
WHY DOES SAURON WANT TO RULE MIDDLE EARTH? WHY WHY WHY? No one knows, and no one seems to care, It's only: Sauron is evil, he destroys. My God. Even Osama Bin Laden had a pretty clear reason why he destroyed. F'd up beliefs, but I can see his reasoning. No one is even trying to understand the enemy in LOTR. Understanding and moving around and through the enemy is one of first lessons of contemporary strategy. Children can see THIS hole.

3. Shift in tone -character development
So Gimli's a jokester now. And everyone laughed when Gollom and Smeagol started arguing. Maybe this film was supposed to be about Aragorn more, but jeezus, it coulda been done smoother. And what was with that two-second hand-held camera shot when he was doozy and getting on the horse? Consistency was lacking in between the two films.

4. Slashy Good Time or the Medievil Lockerroom
Was JRR Tolkien gay? Seems most of us are, and would know if that's the case. The same friend who told me that films weren't about women also told me that cinematic and therefore REAL violence was all about homosexual frustration. He and I were looking at a poster of Fight Club that was hanging on another friends bathroom door. Smart friend denies "definition", and fight clubber is adamantly straight... Both went with me to see LOTRTTT. All these flashing swords and sweat are really rather glamorous, don't you think? Just once I'd like to see some of the real gore and brutality that would necessarily accompany a "fantasy" story. These boys fight fight fight struggle struggle struggle like that's all they do and that's all they love and they love fighting with each other.

5. Botanical Anatomy
Warning: Aesthetic analysis... The Ents sucked. I saw the eyes open and sunk in my chair. Can this BE any more Disney? Maybe Jackson was trying to follow some kind of literal translation of the Ent's appearance, but they looked dumb and like generic tree-people. If a damn tree is going to be moving and talking and behaving humanlike, does it necessarily have to be anthropomorphic? Why biped? Why two arms? Why in god's name do they have "hair"? Props to the anamatronic camps and CGers, but it seemed to lack creativity.

6. Is this Ferngully too?
Woe is me... my friends the trees are cut down. I'll save the planet and restore ecological balance by flooding. This goes back to Good vs Evil.

7. Jar Jar plus
Gollom looked better than Jar Jar, yes. Barely. He was still "cute". I hate "cute". Cute is what you give children to make them stop asking questions.

This is me shooting from the hip at the movie. Not at those who liked it. Please help me resolve these criticisms through discussion.
 
 
bio k9
18:25 / 19.12.02
I'm not kidding when I say it was the worst film I've ever paid to see in a theatre.

Lucky you. Mine is, and always will be, Highlander 2.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:21 / 19.12.02
I've never read the books, and I don't think I should have to in order to apreciate a story in its cinematic portrayal.

Exactly. This is why these films are a massive cinematic failure as far as I'm concerned. Every defense of the films' enormous flaws is based on "well, if you read the book...". Well, fuck that. This is a movie. Each movie should be able to be comprehensible and work as an individual film, and if it can't, and for just about anyone who has not read the novels it hasn't, then it is a miserable failure no matter how stunning the imagery is.

I didn't have to read the Harry Potter books to 'get' those film apaptions. I just saw About Schmidt yesterday, and I didn't need to see Louis Begley's novel to understand that movie. Everyone knows that "well, if you read the book..." is a bullshit excuse for dim-witted, poor screenwriting.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
20:15 / 19.12.02
I've never read the books and I quite enjoyed the first film. Dunno what that says about me...
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
21:01 / 19.12.02
What is the point of criticism without correction? Those who can't do, criticise?

Do you think you could have done a better job, Chesed?

(And yes, I loved the movie)
 
 
videodrome
01:14 / 20.12.02
Flux, I understand your argument, but I think what Jackson's trying to do is make a nine-hour film that, by necessity, has to be released in three parts. No one really complains that The Two Towers (the novel) doesn't stand on it's own as a book because it's obvious that it was never intended to. Jackson is folowing the same pattern, and if, following next year's release, there's no development, etc across the board, then I'll side with you a bit. I don't think that'll be the case, based on the two films we've got. But now, in their own commercial way, I think Jackson's films are a pretty brave experiment, demanding that audiences follow the narrative flow directly from one film to the next over the course of years.

In regard to this film, I quite liked it. I didn't find the battle sequences tedious, nor did I feel it to be over-long. There are bad points; Jackson is a man of movement and action, and whenever he's got a scene with a few people talking in a room, it gets really blocky. This was evident last time in the scene with Elrond's council, and there's a good handful of examples in TTT.

I've enthusiastically bought all the effects up until the Ents, which didn't really fly for me - mostly for the same reasons that Chesed set out above, and in particular the eyes, which looked torn from teddy bears. The voices were good, and the dialogue well-done, but they didn't look so hot.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
07:54 / 20.12.02
Saw the film last night and had a great time, but then again, I read the books once as a child about (christ!) fifteen years ago, so I love these movies with the same energy as my ten-year-old imagination.

Gollum is a fantastic character and I think the computer animation on him was very successful. I'm kind of with the teddy-bear quality of the Ents, although watching them kick ass was very satisfying all the same.

I can't say I enjoyed this one more than the first one, but I think that was the same with the books. I'm still pissed off that I have to wait another year, and has anybody mentioned that two-second sequence when Legolas swung himself onto a speeding horse? I think everyone in the audience said "Rock!" at the same time...
 
 
Punji Steak
14:27 / 20.12.02
Chesed - a couple of points about your post, if I may...

I think that Sauron's motivation is surely power for power's sake, which reflects a common theme throughout real history, surely? Obviously wars in real life are fought for economic, cultural and religious reasons but it seems that the people who lead others into them are often doing so for the sake of often selfish megalomaniacal reasons. For instance, what did the Julius Caesar have to gain from invading the British Isles. The natives were no threat to Rome, and Britain had nothing to offer the empire. Or Alexander etc......

And secondly, "Was JRR Tolkien gay? Seems most of us are" - are we? I'd never really thought about it. Is that a commonly held view of the local demographic here? Just interested like.

(Sorry if I'm going off the point!)
 
 
Aertho
15:38 / 20.12.02
Foust - Maybe I could've done a better job. My main conceptual problem with the film, aside from aesthetic concerns, is obviously an editing room and film crew one. I don't have expertise in either of those jobs, but I know when something doesn't feel right. It disappoints me when films with enormous funding, audience following, and personal anticipation fall short of making a "clean" movie. It's almost as if there were too many chefs in the kitchen, and some blowhard with a fat wallet had a "few good ideas" -namely: Gimli's behavior, Aragorn's dizzy shot...

Punji Steak- "Power for power's sake" is a modernist cop-out. Of course, we've all been fed that as a motivator for evil, and can understand the want for power in ourselves, but that's exactly what I'm talking about. We want power for ourselves to serve some purpose -be it lust, greed, envy, safety, insanity. What besides insanity(another cop-out) would be Sauron's motivator? Good vs. Evil oppositional thinking leads us nowhere. Rome and Caesar are not portrayed as the faceless Evil that Sauron is in the LOTR. Faceless Evil CANNOT be destroyed, just as faceless Good cannot be. Give them both characters in a story, and then switch it up a bit, and we have a contemporary struggle.

And it seems there are a lot of posters who are gay. That's all. Personally, I'm a Kinsey Three. I could've googled up a search on a JRR Tolkien bio, but I didn't. I still might. I used to think all this violence in fantasy filmmaking was allegorical, but it's really pointless without real sacrifice and real hope. Both of them felt generic in the Helm's Deep battle, making the violence generic, and therefore the struggle generic.

You're not off the point, just expanding on it. The points I raised about women and Good vs Evil are congruent with contemporary culture and the needs of the audience. I might get flack and semantic argumentation for these statements, but I thoroughly believe that we, as a people, ARE EXPECTED and therefore DO know more than all preceding generations. We collect ideas like weaponry and fashion, trump and erode belief structures, and try on manufactured personalities instead of growing into them. That's not just Invisibles talking. We're operating in a very fragile social net where individuals are interchangeable and roles are not. People can be made stronger or be broken with this knowledge. Artists must become responsbile for everything they put into the world. It may seem like a lot to ask, but it's really not. We must become responsible for the messages about differences, about opposites and opposition, about gender politics and gender expectations. How's that for off topic?
 
 
Jack Fear
15:57 / 20.12.02
Sauron lashes out because he is afraid to love, and he had an unhappy childhood.

There. Does that make it better for you?
 
 
Aertho
16:09 / 20.12.02
Oh Jack, don't be like that. :/

I get the joke. I know I should just shut up and enjoy the movie. But it feels like something my grandparents may have seen and related to during the forties; had they been able. I'm past all that though, and I feel outside.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:12 / 20.12.02
Maybe I could've done a better job. My main conceptual problem with the film, aside from aesthetic concerns, is obviously an editing room and film crew one.

See, I don't agree with that. I think that given the atrocious story that he has to work with, Peter Jackson has done an incredible job, at least with the Fellowship. Him and his cast and crew are not to blame for what Tolkien has written, and I think they do the best they can with what they've got to work with.
 
 
Aertho
16:23 / 20.12.02
Okay, I agree that the story might suck... women/GvsE/Ferngully... but I thought we weren't to have read the books? The movie might have been fine if they'd given us less Arwen leaving and Aragorn dazed, and more Rohanians. I loved the Fellowship. I thought the pace, pictures, and amount of information were dynamite. Which is why this one's such a let-down. Things haven't progressed along at the pace that the first built -that may be the books, I don't know.

And I forgot to mention in my first post about the shit "Exorcist transformation" scene from sickeningly possessed King to normal healthy King. Can we slide in a Bill and Ted "Whoah" scene in too?
 
 
Jack Fear
16:38 / 20.12.02
. But it feels like something my grandparents may have seen and related to during the forties.
Consider (a) when the books were written, and (b) the melieu they invoke.

I'm past all that though...
Sorry--could you speak more slowly? My tiny ape-brain can't process that...

How about this. We never see Sauron: he is supposed to have been killed 2500 years ago, and we are told that he has no physical form. And yet he conquers--or forces conquer in his name.

So here's a thought: What if there is no Sauron as such, no person or entity called Sauron—what if he's more like a political movement (Sauronism?) which continues in decentralized form after the figurehead or leader is gone?

Sauron has no particular desires or characteristics of his own, because he is a metaphor—he is the ghost in the machine: the machinery of war rumbles on, but there is no-one at the helm. Mordor is a self-perpetuating system, a system whose only goal is its own continuation: it continues by assimilating others unto itself.

That's "power for its own sake," I guess—but that's how systems work.

How about that? Can you accept that reading?

No?

Okay: Sauron's babysitter touched him up when he was wee. And his babysitter was an Ent.

How about that?
 
 
Aertho
17:08 / 20.12.02
Jack, it wasn't an insult. And I know when the books were written. I sense the mileau and I still want more.

Your given spin on Mordor is a hell of a lot more interesting than what we've been given through the narrative. Following your read, he's a self-perpetuating system that exists through constant annihilation. The Good Guys seek to destroy the enemy through annihilation. That perpetuates the system and survives the enemy. What bothers me now is that the protagonists are not stopping that system. Without the goal being real peace, what's the point? Say they destroy Sauron, will there be disenfranchised orcs and Neo-Saurons running throughout Gondor?

Child abuse is despicable, but it's a result of people feeling sexually insecure. That's a perpetuating system too. You can stop it by talking to people and making them feel okay.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:12 / 20.12.02
Without the goal being real peace, what's the point?

Tch. And you say Tolkien was living in a simplistic fantasy world...
 
 
Aertho
17:18 / 20.12.02
Alright, new question. What were the prevailing themes of The Two Towers, aside from those already addressed in Fellowship. Overlaps allowed, but what are the new ones?
 
 
Jack Fear
17:37 / 20.12.02
Corruption and decline, with Sam as the exemplar of the healthy personality type and Gollum at the opposite pole, with Frodo in the middle feeling the tension.

Love triangle.

Fathers and sons.

Beaten-down old men mustering themselves for one last battle, which echoes the overall theme of the passage from a heroic age into a more prosaic age (as with the earlier talk of the Elves taking passage and leaving Middle-Earth).
 
 
Cubby
17:45 / 20.12.02
In a way, Chessed the question of perpetuation and escalation of violence is addressed in the last movie; The sides of "good" are given the most powerful weapon on the planet, and they choose to risk giving it to the enemy in an attempt to destroy it. In their way, the "good" are fighting for peace.

I also have a slightly different reading of the use of "cute". Golem is made cute, not shut up the kiddies, but so that the audience can see him as Frodo does, a pitiful creature with no hope of having a full life.

I enjoyed the cutsiness of the Ents for the scene where the get angry, it was an interesting way of disguising just how powerful a force they are.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:20 / 20.12.02
Part of the reason we read Gollum as "cute" is because of his large soulful eyes... which are computer-modelled on Elijah Wood/Frodo's eyes.

Just to, y'know, make the point a little plainer.
 
 
videodrome
19:11 / 20.12.02
"Power for power's sake" is a modernist cop-out.

Please. I live in the United States. Have you seen what's going on here? Have a look at our fearless leader and tell me with a straight face that Sauron's motivation is outdated and irrelevant.

Re: cute Gollum - I think Jackson got it very right. It's very easy to see him as a monster, and not at all Tolkien's intention. Jackson has made the character a person, and while he overdid it here and there, the connection between Frodo and Smeagol is very well built.
 
 
videodrome
19:16 / 20.12.02
Oh, and...

Your given spin on Mordor is a hell of a lot more interesting than what we've been given through the narrative.

It's all in the narrative - anyone can extract that reading just as Jack did. We'd all be crying foul if Gandalf sat Frodo down and said, "look, the Ring is perpetuating the system. No, really. Trust me, OK? Oh, and if you wear it, seven days later you die..."

The Good Guys seek to destroy the enemy through annihilation. That perpetuates the system and survives the enemy. What bothers me now is that the protagonists are not stopping that system.

The Ring is the power behind the system - ring, see? Circle, cycle, all that? It infects and influences even those who are quite good to begin with. Destroy the ring, break the cycle. So they are trying to stop the system, but there's the pesky problem of making sure that those children they took all that time to raise survive the process.
 
 
The Natural Way
10:22 / 22.12.02
There's a lot of subtle character stuff in the films. I like the way that, if yr actually paying attention to the dialogue, there's loads there, but it's not conveyed by emotional grandstanding or over-emoting. For a big, big movie, it's surprising how much you HAVE to pay attentionto the little details. And after watching the extended edition a few times, I've got a VERY clear idea of who the characters are and what's going on in their heads. Aragorn, fr instance, really has a BIG story arc. His decision to help the Rohirrim and his little tiff w/ Legolas really underline the decision he made as Boromir lay dying. There's plenty going on there. Nggh....I don't buy this "there's no characters" crap.

Yeah, the Hobbits riding Treebeard were my least favourite effects shots, but, come on, you have to allow for the odd duff effect here and there - otherwise, the tricky-dickery's fantastic.
 
  

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