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The Two Towers

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
18:45 / 27.12.02
L.M. Rosa There isn't a scene in the movie that isn't good; what's wrong with Arwen and Elrond? It was necessary to explain why the Elf army goes in aid of Helm's Deep - it's background information, and a good point of characterisation at that.

Hmm, must have missed that, does Elrond make a deal with Arwen that if she goes off to the Grey Havens he'll send the archers to help the men?


All those scenes between Elrond wanting to leave, Arwen wanting to stay, and Galadriel persuading Elrond to stay and fight (his army does all the work, actually), it's all connected, and there was no deal - it was a simple logical thinking:

If Elrond flees, Sauron will find them no matter where he is, so he might as well stay and fight.

Don't be always so perfectionist, and enjoy the movie - it's the main reason after all.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
18:49 / 27.12.02
Furthermore, Rosebud is the sled, Darth Vader is Luke's father, and that chick in The Crying Game is a DUDE!

Fuck you, Jack, damn it - i've been ignoring everything about The Crying Game so i don't find out the end before i see the movie, and now you show up and tell it - well, fuck you, man.

You might as well tell everyone who Keyser Soze is, what's the army of the twelve monkeys, what happens to Mill's wife at the end of Se7en, and so on - there are still many more endings for you to fuck up.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:54 / 27.12.02
Isn't there a statute of limitations on spoilers?

The Crying Game came out ten years ago, my friend, and Lord of the Rings has been around for forty.

Oh yeah, and Bruce Willis is dead the whole time and doesn't know it.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
19:03 / 27.12.02
Rosebud is the sled

??? What movie is that about?

Anyway, Jack, you're still a bastard - people like you destroyed all the pleasure i could ever have in watching the original Planet of the Apes - 'It's the Statue of Liberty...' Buch a fucking wankers, couldn't keep them mouths shut.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:11 / 27.12.02
Citizen Kane.
 
 
Seth
16:59 / 28.12.02
I understand where the criticism is coming from... but I do tend to wonder what the film(s) would have been like in different hands. And then I shudder and realise that what we've got here is fucking great, really nicely done, can't look a gift horse in the mouth, easily the best mainstream blockbusters I can be arsed to think of.
 
 
Fist Fun
18:10 / 28.12.02
Never read the books so this I was a fresh canvas for this. Found the second film good fun but it tended to wander almost like linked short stories.

Really like the gollom character. The effects were well done and I really liked the internal good guy/bad guy dialogue. He stood out and if anyone is going to win an oscar then why not...

For action scenes the whole sneaking out a cunningly hidden side door and attacking about a million orc type things on the bridge was fun.

Ok film, worth seeing.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
18:15 / 28.12.02
The problem with trying to enjoy the movie as a movie (which is fine, cos it's great) is that when you then have the discussion about it afterwards you realise that a great proportion of the appeal of the film for LOTR geeks (like, er, me) is that it's a film made by fatbeards for fatbeards as well as being a blockbuster... and that a lot of the questions that arise in discussions like this one can be answered by referring to the whole Middle Earth mythos in a way which is generally more satisfactory...

So, Rosa: Sauron can't follow Elrond or any other elves beyond the Grey Havens, because the Undying Lands were sealed off after the fall of Westernesse, and if Elrond et al wished to just chuck everything in the air they could go off to Valinor and be perfectly all right. I'm not convinced that the film does the Elves, and especially Elrond, any favours by portraying them as it does - Elrond and Galadriel are wielders of Great Rings and guardians of Middle Earth, they aren't staying out of self-interest. And I agree with whoever it was who said that Legolas isn't as he is in the books. Elves are other, and that doesn't really come across.

The elves at Helm's Deep - they're under the command of Haldir, aren't they? Which presumably means they must have come from Lothlorien rather than Rivendell. Not that it really matters two hoots in terms of the film - all this is just fannish nitpicking, and I certainly didn't enjoy it any the less because 'it wasn't in the book'.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
18:52 / 28.12.02
Never read the books so this I was a fresh canvas for this. Found the second film good fun but it tended to wander almost like linked short stories.

But it was meant to be three stories: Merry and Pippin; Frodo and Sam; Aragorn and the rest of the fellowship.

That's pretty much how the book itself is structured, if i remember it correctly.

And i can't see a flaw in that; it was the only way of keeping the original story intact, as possible as the adaptation allowed.
 
 
The Photographer in Blowup
19:00 / 28.12.02
The elves at Helm's Deep - they're under the command of Haldir, aren't they? Which presumably means they must have come from Lothlorien rather than Rivendell. Not that it really matters two hoots in terms of the film

Actually, concerning this discussion, it does matter.

If they don't come from Elrond, then i take it all back and don't see the importance of Elrond and Galadriel's scenes either - suppose they have to appear now, so that by The Return of the King people haven't forgotten them already.

Still, i did enjoy the Arwen/Elrond/Aragorn scenes - did for characterisation, and it's always pleasant to watch Liv Tyler with pointed ears.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
19:13 / 28.12.02
Thinking about it more, there wouldn't have been time for a band of elves to get from Rivendell to Helm's Deep (on foot? I don't recall horses...) - so I reckon they're definitely from Lothlorien, yeah...

This makes me think that perhaps all the gubbins with Elrond and Arwen is meant to point up the sacrifice involved in the Arwen/Aragorn relationship, but I must say that it really doesn't do Elrond justice - makes him look rather petty.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:43 / 28.12.02
Elves are other, and that doesn't really come across.

Well, quite. Haldir's company, and Elrond's Victorian Dad act, and Arwen and Aragorn's "two crazy kids in love" schtic, utterly fucks the work that has been put into making Legolas move and perceive in a different way. Legolas is, in many ways, an exceptional elf. But he's exceptional because he surpasses other elves in prowess, and also because he is far happier to hang out with humans, dwarves, hobbits, and all the people that the other elves are deeply suspicious of precisely because the now-penultimate alliance of men and elves achieved, ultimately, only a temporary abatement in the progress of Sauron, because Isildur was too concerned with mortal glory.

Whereas now the elves are just a different aesthetic effect in a CGI battle, and emotionally are just humans with pointy ears and better shaving products. Eladan and Elrohir turning up with the Dunedain is a sign that some elves believe the importance of sorting out the failure of their father and the multiply great grandfathers of Aragorn before they take their leave. Seven hundred elves popping up from out the wood (proud and grim they were) is just an opportunity for lots of Uruk-Hai to be shot cinematically in the neck. It's very pretty, but it's the Hawk the Slayer view of elves.
 
 
gingerbop
23:10 / 28.12.02
Im tall. For a hobbit.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:39 / 28.12.02
I've just seen the LotR Extended Edition, and one thing that's really struck me is that, just as with the book, it's almost pointless viewing these films as three separate entities. Actually, one other thing's struck me: it's almost pointless discussing the theatrical releases as finished works.

There are a couple of bits in TT that make no sense without a knowledge of the book or the LotR DVD. First is Pippin dropping the brooch as a trail for Aragorn and his response. We don't know that this came from the Elves, yet Aragorn still makes reference to that fact. The second is Frodo and Sam hiding under the Elven cloak. Again, we don't know that it's an Elven cloak, we don't know that it's endowed with power, so the disguise comes across as a cheesy, contrived means out of a script trap.

The theatrical relesae of TT is an odd cut in a number of ways, but mostly because it presumes the viewer has seen the DVD already. Certainly, the Aragorn/Arwen relationship is played up a lot more on the DVD and I get the feeling that all of Arwen's scenes are hangovers from this. Jackson's allowed himself to get written into a corner in the first film, maiking that relationship one of the main focal points and it needs resolving. It just didn't need resolving in this cut.

ITEM 2: Love how the fact that Elves die is sooo much more tragic than all the shitloads of Men that also bite the big one. Because they're eternal, athletic and very, very pretty, right? A little echo of Black Hawk Down et al, IMAnachronisticallyAllegoricO. Some animals are more equal than others...

Weeelllll, no, not really. We see plenty of Elves go down during the battle and it's the one death that we focus in on, the death of the guy who's leading the Elven archers and is matey with Aragorn. Aragorn seems to be this film's main character, so it's natural that something that affects him is going to have a bit more time spent on it.

As for the question of why the Elves were there at all, that goes back to the point about having to take all three films as a whole. Jackson may well have had a good reason for this, but it'll take until the third part to find out.

ITEM 3: More Dwarf tossing. Because the line got a big laugh in the first film, right?

A lot of people have complained about this, and I'll admit it was something that I thought was a little cheap at first. You've got to look at it in context. It was always going to happen at some point, the line in the first film begs for a response later on. It also forms about 120 seconds of six and a half hours (so far) worth of film. If there's a problem with it, it's that Gimli is given little else to do in TT, making the comedy stand out that much more.

It's very annoying that we don't get the proper film until the DVD release. The logic that states that an audience will sit on its arse in front of a screen for three hours, but not twenty minutes more, is deeply flawed. It's also plain dumb making the cut down version the only option if you want to watch it on the big screen, all the time totally aware that you're watching an abridged version. 'Extended Edition' is a complete misnomer; it'd be a more true reflection of the state of events if the theatrical release was subtitled 'Chopped Edition'.

Grr.
 
 
A
01:38 / 29.12.02
I'm pretty sure that the guy who leads the elves who show up at Helms' Deep (Haldir, folks seem to be calling him, unless i'm mistaken) was first seen in Fellowship, leading the party that captures the fellowship in Lothlorien. If you missed that, it may have been difficult to figure out just where these elves had come from.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
03:23 / 29.12.02
Loved it, loved it, loved it. Yes, we picked holes in it for an hour afterwards but, having done so, still had that warm glow of having sat in a cinema and been utterly caught up in it for just under three hours, no mean feat.

Gollum is superbly realised. The pathos inherent in his tragic tale is even more fully there on the screen than on the page. Sexist yes, but you have to remember the time wherefrom the source text dates. If you don't want a Samwise Gamgee of your own by the end of it and you don't want to shag Orlando Bloom and Viggo Mortensen, you have a chromosomal disorder.

I am troubled by the extremely vaginal manifestation of the Eye of Sauron though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:33 / 29.12.02
Speaking of Sam's Faramir-converting down-home wisdom, some friends of mine saw it with one of their teenaged daughters, who, when Frodo asked "what do we have to hold on to, Sam?" cried out in perfect counterpoint, "the Headboard!"

I wish I'd been there.
 
 
Pemulis / Dee Vapr / Hungrygho
13:46 / 29.12.02
Just seen the film last night - here's my two pence like.

Magnificent visual spectacle - Ents, Gollum being a better actor than all of his fleshy co-stars, erm, but I am deeply concerned by Jackson's yawing need to digress from the books more and more, when Fellowship was such a faithful representation of the book; and I'm not some Tolkien fascist - I just think that Jackson's major revisions - Arwen/Aragorn, removal of the Huorns, addition of the Elves - making the Ents a procrastinating self-interested bunch, fucking about with the Faramir episode - Sam's cheese-fest - amongst other things - were detrimental to the original story - and the necessary ones to produce the pacing of a Hollywood film were dealt with hamfistedly at best.
 
 
invisible_al
09:36 / 30.12.02
It was definately the middle of a trilogy and therefore not quite as shiney as the first film (which had a beginning, middle and end).
I liked the Ents, didn't think too much of Treebeard on his own, but massed Ents (all the different types of trees appealed to my inner geek) attacking Isengard was very nice.
Gollum was amazing as well, still some points you could tell he was CGI but they were very few and the acting was superb.
Disliked the Comedy Dwarf, he should have more to do, I think the DVD bit about Gladriels hair was possibly the best bit he's actually had so far.
Oh anyone notice the black race of men, yup that was them marching into Mordor, blink and you'll miss them. Very cool costume though.
 
 
deja_vroom
10:09 / 30.12.02
I went to see it only for the battle scenes, and felt they were... ok. I wanted more of it, I guess. The constant interruptions to show Merry and Pippin sort of broke the tension. And why did it have to be so dark? Good for the mood, but I wanted to see more.... The ents thrashing Isengard also rocked). By the way, about the ent's look... you know, this being an adaptation of a book with characters such as TOM BOMBADIL, I think the ents were pretty decent in how they looked.

One of the few problems I had with it besides the cheap sentimentalism was the fact that they overplayed the comedy relief with Gimli. And I oh so fucking hate comic reliefs, they're so dumb it hurts. (On the other hand, at least now Gmli has a personality, which he lacked entirely on the books, IIRC). If I had to pick my favorite actor/character in the movie, it would have to be Grima Wormtongue (I don't know the name of the actor). He was so fucking good. Can't wait to see him again.
 
 
invisible_al
13:55 / 30.12.02
Brad Doriff was playing the evil grand vizer type, who in no way is typecaste, he's best known for playing the evil grand vizer for the Harkonen's in Dune. And he was rather cool wasn't he .
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:05 / 30.12.02
Is it me, or has no-one mentioned yet what is surely the most slashtastic line in cinema history?

"Toss me... but don't tell the elf."
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:12 / 30.12.02
oh, for fuck's sake, they used it *again*? Like it wasn't 'carry on' enough the first time
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
19:17 / 30.12.02
Weeelllll, no, not really. We see plenty of Elves go down during the battle and it's the one death that we focus in on, the death of the guy who's leading the Elven archers and is matey with Aragorn. Aragorn seems to be this film's main character, so it's natural that something that affects him is going to have a bit more time spent on it.

Weeelllll, no, bollocks, actually. What we get is a slow-motion death scene for Haldir Of The Lantern Jaw, and a melodramatic pause during which he surveys all of the puir wee dead elfie-welfies, and pretty much seems to decide that he'd rather have spent his time back in Lothlorien watching Galadriel practice her Britney Spears impression. It's not as if Aragorn couldn't have done his 'Noooo! Whyyyy? scene' without this supreme moment of tasteless cheese.

As for the question of why the Elves were there at all, that goes back to the point about having to take all three films as a whole. Jackson may well have had a good reason for this, but it'll take until the third part to find out.

Otherwise known as the 'Trusssst Jossss' argument. Didn't buy it in the Buffy threads, don't buy it now. As good a job as Jackson's done so far, he's fucked up several elements, the most important (for me) being Faramir and the treatment of the Elves as a race. Neither of these two points would have required much work to portray properly, and would have taken just as much money and screentime. He just screwed up, that's all.

A lot of people have complained about this [the 'dwarf tossing'], and I'll admit it was something that I thought was a little cheap at first. You've got to look at it in context. It was always going to happen at some point, the line in the first film begs for a response later on. It also forms about 120 seconds of six and a half hours (so far) worth of film. If there's a problem with it, it's that Gimli is given little else to do in TT, making the comedy stand out that much more.

Gimli had little to do in the original text. I don't mind him being the focal point of some irascible comedy, especially as Rhys Davies is so good at it. But the dwarf-tossing line is just dumb. It's also out of synch with the rest of the Helm's Deep segment, Gim an' Gorn taking time out to crack wise like Pete an' Dud in a fraught action scene. It's just crap... Hollywood action-movie-making at play. Just because they're right in the middle of losing a terrifying battle to save the people of Rohan doesn't mean they can't take a second to grin at each other like twatty kids out of 90210, right?
 
 
Cat Chant
22:34 / 30.12.02
I started crying randomly in the middle of this because I was so fucking moved that all these people have been in my head since I was, um, fourteen or something, and now vast amounts of time and money and love have gone into putting it on the screen for me to swim in.

On a more prosaic level: Three and a half hours of fighting and boys looking tenderly into each other's eyes! Huzzah!

And that's all I have to say. Except - Haus, you're *really* upset about the elves, aren't you?
 
 
The Natural Way
09:19 / 31.12.02
Yeah, I really feel the love too, Dave (sorry, that was naughty of me!). There's sooo much. And Lada's right: it IS golden.

Is there some confusion here? The next film doesn't end with the destruction of the ring - it ends with the ships leaving for Valinor. Yeah, it's a shame that the scouring isn't included, but everything else is there. And Jackson and Wood have been quoted as saying "It'll be as long as it needs to be....."
 
 
The Natural Way
09:21 / 31.12.02
And I think you've got to be really fucking uptight to get upset about the "toss the dwarf" line. I've seen the film x 3 and plenty of people laughed every time. TTT has to appeal to a wide range of people. Try being a bit more tolerant and a bit less eggy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:43 / 31.12.02
You actually can't respond to an opinion that differs to your own without assuming that those who hold it have something wrong with them, can you Runce? It's interesting, but must lead to some very short discussions...
 
 
Jack Fear
11:48 / 31.12.02
Is there some confusion here? The next film doesn't end with the destruction of the ring - it ends with the ships leaving for Valinor.

Never said "end."
Said "climax."

Snot the same noo ezzet.
 
 
Seth
21:15 / 31.12.02
I just read the Peter Jackson interview in the new SFX. It looks like there's shedloads of footage that could be restored in the DVD cut, including more Helm's Deep fighting. I don't give a shit about more action. The stuff I want to see is the cut Boromir stuff (which I imagine will be a brotherly flashback, giving a bit more meat to Faramir's role. Sean Bean is on record saying that he has filmed scenes for this movie) and some more interaction between Theoden and Aragorn, to build up to the latter's development in the third movie. I imagine that the Huorns could be added back in here, although something tells me that we may get more Ents destroying Isengard in the Return of the King - building continuity in the same way that having a big Balrog presence did in this film (it'd be weird if they just totally dropped out of the story and were only in one film).

Anything in this post that doesn't make sense can be attributed to the fact that I never finished the trilogy, getting about a quarter of the way into the Two Towers before giving up at the age of eight. Forgotten why I didn't persevere, but I figure life's too short to pick up where I left off now that the movies are out. One to save for my retirement.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
22:57 / 31.12.02
And that's all I have to say. Except - Haus, you're *really* upset about the elves, aren't you?

Deva: you wait until the next film. I hear Elvendrums feature prominently - and then Haus will be muchos happy...

(Without rot, I'm probably going to see it today, if I can get my arse into gear.)
 
 
The Natural Way
10:00 / 02.01.03
That's just not true, Haus. You must have something wrong with you.
 
 
penitentvandal
13:16 / 02.01.03
Haus invented the word 'huggles' sometime last year. It is, I think, a fairly common supposition that he has something wrong with him, but no-one wants to enquire too deeply into what it is for fear of...Well, fear, really. Just fear.

A point that keeps coming up in the commentary to the special (or as I call it, 'proper') edition DVD is that elves are immortal and do not usually die. Thus, I think it makes more sense, dramatically, to foreground the death of the Elves at Helm's Deep because unlike 'mortal men doomed to die', it's a much more unexpected thing.

And for the record, everyone in the cinema laughed uneasily during the Smeagol/Gollum conversation, uproariously at the dwarf-tossing gag, and were all well-impressed with Legolas' horse-mounting trick. Lots of people shifted uneasily during Frodo and Sam's tender gay relationship scenes but sadly no-one made any 'headboard'-style comments, but then again they would have surely been lynched.

Chesed - you sound like a very intelligent young person but I think you're taking this far too seriously. And by the tone of some of your posts, you should really have been calling yourself Geburah.

And 'Heterogorn' - bwah ha ha...
 
 
The Natural Way
14:10 / 02.01.03
My mate bulk meat was using the term "cuggles" long before "huggles" emerged on the 'lith. I'm immune to that kind of sick speak now.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:35 / 02.01.03
Yes, Peter and the writers seem obsessed by this idea of Legolas especially not understanding what's going on when Gandalf falls into the abyss in Chapter One because elves don't normally die. This only works if you believe that between the defeat of Sauron and Bilbo's birthday party absolutely nothing evil has happened in Middle Earth at all, which I don't. It's like those 'oh you'll never know what it's like to solve a difficult equation/break an arm/give birth/beat up a nonce until you do it' arguments. Still, it's a footling little point.
 
  

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