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Multidimensional thinking.

 
  

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dj kali_ma
15:22 / 03.12.02
Okay, this proves to be a bit difficult to translate into words, but please bear with me.

If a hyperdimensional being were to, say, look at a three-dimensional onion, it would be able to see all the layers of the onion without the onion being necessarily "transparent", right? Likewise, this hyperdimensional being would be able to reach out with a finger and touch any of the layers without disturbing or damaging the layers around it, correct?

I think a few people here might even be able to envision what this effect would look like on a three-dimensional level, or even an extradimensional level.

My questions for you are this, then:

1.) Do thoughts and emotions have actual "physical" dimensions on higher spatial dimensional levels? Or does it all prove to be ephemeral?

2.) Do stories have any solidity? Having told a story, have you given it any meaningful life?

3.) A being that can see extradimensionally... what do *humans* look like to it? Would we be this somewhat flat, writhing mass of illogically-reacting viscera?

4.) What do two dimensional "creatures" look like to one another?

I've consulted the books of Michio Kaku, some old articles I've been able to find, and a great quantity of weed, but I'm not sure if other people would come to different conclusions.

Oh, and this is my first post on Barbelith underground. Hey.

::aphonia::
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:45 / 03.12.02
Damn, good first post Aph, my first one was probably about baked beans or something.

1) From the little I've read my impulse would be to say no, 'thoughts' and 'emotions' are, after all, energy patterns, bioelectrical in nature, and I don't know anything about higher dimensions allowing different types of energy to criss-cross unless someone actually does something to it.

2) Metaphorically. Have you read 'The Meme Machine'? You've created a memeplex that, if it's a good one, 'lives on' in other heads. If you favour the 'What If...' universe theory so beloved of Marvel Comics a decade ago I suppose there is a universe out there where you tell the story and it comes true.

If you believe in psychic powers and whatnot, I suppose it would be possible that a powerful enough talent could manifest the story elements and make them as though they were real. And you could presumerably create tulpa's that thought they were each character in the story, providing you were willing to spend the next seventy years of your life on top of a mountain meditating to do it.

3) & 4) I can't find it at the moment so can't quote directly, but I suggest you read 'Surfing Through Hyperspace' by Clifford Pickover which addresses such issues.

Welcome to Barbelith Aphonia! Some clever people will be along any minute to explain why I'm wrong.
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:49 / 03.12.02
Hey!

OK, I'm wondering how a being can reach through an onion but be able to touch a certain part of it at the same time. Unless these guys are both a wave and a particle. Could work I guess, assuming that waves and particles aren't just human concepts.

1. No more than in XYZ world.
2. Some AI people would argue that computers can be intelligent, therefore by extension collections of symbols can be equivalent to life, but I think it's a relativity cop-out and complete bollocks.
3. If they can see time we might look like a long sausage. Other than that ... who knows?
4. 2D beings would not be able to see each other in a 2D world.

IMHO, weed's occasionally good for inspiration, but not for research. :-)
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
16:52 / 03.12.02
Ig. J's #3: I've never liked time as the 4th dimension, personally.

More later.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:32 / 03.12.02
OK, I'm wondering how a being can reach through an onion but be able to touch a certain part of it at the same time - IJ

You go "round the back" in the extra dimension. Think of a disc in two and three dimensions. Same works for a sphere in three and four.

aphonia:

1. Personally I think that thoughts and emotions are emergent properties of brain activity. Little to do with dimensions or ephemerality.

2. My Flowers answered this.

3. Yes we would be sort of flat, but it depends on what you mean by the extra dimensions to some extent. There is little connection with illogicality that I can see - perhaps you mean complexity?

4. Line segments or points, I suppose, depending on what you mean. But a strictly two dimensional world restricts lots of familiar physics.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
17:57 / 03.12.02
In Martin Gardner's The Colossal Book of Mathematics, he talks about a book in which the author describes some engineering solutions to problems in a 2D universe, and goes into the physics of such a place. I don't remember the name of the book, but through googling I've decided that maybe it was The Planiverse by A.K. Dewdney.
 
 
Linus Dunce
18:11 / 03.12.02
You go "round the back" in the extra dimension. Think of a disc in two and three dimensions. Same works for a sphere in three and four.

I can see how they might be able to place the end of their finger against the inner layer so they would be touching it in a topological sense, but touching so they could feel it like us would require them to come over to XYZ. Their finger would be then be coincident with some onion. I think that would probably sting like hell. :-)
 
 
gravitybitch
18:11 / 03.12.02
It's Flatland, but I don't know the author. More later when I'm not at work - this sort of geometry has been one of my favorite things since before highschool when I discovered that Klein's Bottle could be cut apart to make a left-handed and a right-handed Moebius strip.
 
 
Linus Dunce
18:18 / 03.12.02
Or a fan-bloody-tastic bong.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
21:18 / 03.12.02
Flatland is by Edwin A Abbott.
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
22:50 / 03.12.02
No, there's a half-decent modernization of Flatland called Planiverse, which actually does address some of the possible ways intelligent life could flourish in 2D. This was less the mathematical exercise Abbott wrote than a highbrow work in the vein of those precious Finnish Gnome books. I admit to always having had a soft spot for those books that set themselves up as a straightman by acting mundane in anything but mundane circumstances.

Back to the issue at hand, I think 4D perception is what allows for seemingly contradictory statements like being able to reach through an onion and touch its center. From that angle all physical data is evident, as easily read and pointed to as we could pinpoint a spot on a map. With this perception comes awareness of the nature of matter and energy, allowing one to perform such a task, moving not what we would see as a hand but instead a hand-shaped mass of slower-vibrating energy in a field of countless frequencies of energy. A 4D being could wiggle hir fingle out your ear without killing you (though I'd imagine the psychological damage would be intense). A 4D being could kick you in the nuts and have you feel it last week.
 
 
Lurid Archive
23:26 / 03.12.02
I can see how they might be able to place the end of their finger against the inner layer so they would be touching it in a topological sense, but touching so they could feel it like us would require them to come over to XYZ - IJ

when you touch a cd is it a "topological" touch? I suppose it isn't the same as cutting open the cd and touching the edge. Sure.

It is worth noting that a 4d universe - depending on how you interpret the 4th d, to some extent - isn't really very different from a 3d universe. There's just more of it. OK, it is a bit different, but most of the mindfucks involve applying 3d concepts in a 4d world and finding that things are different. Not really that surprising.

A 4d person would have a 4d onion that they couldn't poke the inside of. Or, how surprising is it that you can touch the inside rim of the cd without breaking it?
 
 
Linus Dunce
01:10 / 04.12.02
Sorry, still can't get there. If I have my finger on the inside of a CD touching out, I'm touching ... air.

Also, if I move my finger along the edge of my desk until it's 5 cm away from the corner, it's got an x of 5, with me? If I then move it across my desk 5 cm, it's at 5,5, right? If then I lift it 5 cm, it's at 5,5,5, OK? Now, if I move it 5 whatevers in a fourth dimension, it's at 5,5,5,5. See, that's my problem. Just as moving in y didn't affect the x co-ord, and moving in z didn't affect the x or y, the fourth dimensional movement left x, y and z as they were. Thus, my finger is in the same xyz place no matter where I move it in the fourth dimension. I want to believe, but ... :-)
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
04:16 / 04.12.02
Ah but just as moving it five y takes you off of the number line and moving five z takes you off the cartesian graph moving 5 w takes you off the three dimentional map, your hand disappears from our experiential universe.

[rot] 5 of the 23rd letter of the alphabet, he he. [/rot]
 
 
No star here laces
07:36 / 04.12.02
Welcome back, barbelith, I've missed you...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
07:42 / 04.12.02
Vladimir J. Baptiste, Jr A 4D being could wiggle hir fingle out your ear without killing you (though I'd imagine the psychological damage would be intense). A 4D being could kick you in the nuts and have you feel it last week.

I think that's confusing what the 4th dimension is. My (admittedly limited) understanding is that time is only considered the fourth dimension in science-fiction, in the 'we try to understand this shit for a living' department the fourth dimension is just another direction akin to depth or width that we just don't know how to point yet. I don't think that any of the 10 (or is it 12 now?) dimensions that make up our universe are supposed to be a time onethough whether you could do an 'Invisibles' and make time an object is a tantalising idea...
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:09 / 04.12.02
IJ: You can touch the surface of the cd with your finger and that touches a whole bunch of points at the same time. If you were in 2d, then doing that requires you to cut open the cd.

Applying your argument about coords to the case of the cd you'll see that while it is kinda correct, it sort of assumes that touching means coexisting at the same point. If I take a penny, and lower it onto the surface of a cd, does it touch the cd? Does the cd break open in being touched at more than one point? The problem with maths is that its all idealisations and you have to be careful that reasoning in 4d isn't so ideal that the same type of reasoning would break down in 3d. I'd suggest that a fix would be to consider touch as "extremely close proximity". Of course, that requires a 4d being who senses in 4d...

As for the 4th d being time...that is the convention in relativity, though I think it makes that dimension different from the others. Its possible to talk about dimensions - even infinitely many - as if they are all the same. Just games you can play, in the end, and physicists find some games more useful than others.
 
 
Linus Dunce
11:27 / 04.12.02
I'd suggest that a fix would be to consider touch as "extremely close proximity". Of course, that requires a 4d being who senses in 4d...

I'm down with that. I think where I have a problem is that I can't see dimensions as anything else but discrete. Thus, I can't imagine using => fourth to move around =< third.
 
 
Linus Dunce
11:44 / 04.12.02
Ah but just as moving it five y takes you off of the number line and moving five z takes you off the cartesian graph moving 5 w takes you off the three dimentional map, your hand disappears from our experiential universe.

I have a problem with this too. There is no number line. It is an axis. Not the same.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:13 / 04.12.02
Thus, I can't imagine using => fourth to move around =< third.

Take a point on your onion and move a tiny bit in the fourth dimension, so that you stay really close. Now imagine a virtual point moving on the onion - cutting through it, as it were. Now mirror this movement with the point that is just a tiny bit above in the 4th d. The non-virtual point never touches the onion, but can stay extremely close to it the whole time.
 
 
odd jest on horn
12:57 / 04.12.02
Caveat: I prolly sound a bit dogmatic, but these are only my opinions, which i'm not trying to force down anyones throat though it may sound like it. It's just my way of writing.


Time is seen as a fourth imaginery dimension, in the sense of the imaginery part of a complex number.

Distance in euclidean 3D space between two points is measured like this:
dist = sqrt((p1.x - p2.x)^2 + (p1.y - p2.y)^2 + (p1.z - p2.z)^2)

Distances in the space-time continuum are measured thusly:
dist = sqrt((p1.x - p2.x)^2 + (p1.y - p2.y)^2 + (p1.z - p2.z)^2 - (t1 - t2)^2

Notice the minus sign before time. It implies that if you're at point p1 at time t1 and want to get to p2 at t2, then you don't have to go as fast if you have ample time. ie, the distance is less in the space-time continuum.

Time as the fourth dimension is basically just a mathematical gimmick
to make some relativity equations easier to work with.


A fourth dimension in the mathematical sense is nothing special either. Basically you can say that the heat at point p1 (x,y,z) is the fourth dimension, if you feel like. Then if you get a temper, you're moving through the fourth dimension (from 37° centigrade to, say, 40° centigrade).

It's only if you insist on having the fourth dimension an actual physical dimension that you start getting into trouble :-)

And even then, mathematics can take care of that easily enough. It's just how it would work in the actual physical world, and visualizing it, that's problematic.

here's a non-link to a rubik cube in 4 dimension, represented in 2d, using perspective to fool you into that it's represented in 3d. It's mathematically sound and actually gives you a rather good abstract sense of the way rotation works in 4d ("rotating in a direction we don't have a name for" -invisibles).

http://www.hadron.org/~hatch/MagicCube4dApplet/


To try to answer some of those questions:

1. Thoughts and emotions in my experience don't have spatial dimensions at all, though the fact that we live in a 3D spatial world very much affects the things we *can* visualize. (though not think about). I think thoughts are more or less n dimensional, much like music is 2-dimensional (time and amplitude). Though there are implied multidimensions both in music and thoughts (frequency is just amplitude going up and down, melody is modulated frequancy).
Thinking about this, I feel like thoughts and music are n and 2 dimensional, respectively, but can have infinitely big fractal dimensions. I really can't say what number n is but for me it's usually 3, i.e. I think in 2d images moving over time, though this varies sometimes. I have been able to get a sort of visualizable flash of insight in 4 dimensions, when I had been thinking about quaternions(*) for over a month for 8 hours a day.

Emotions are multidimensional in a way, though people have different opinions about which axises make up the dimensions. I don't think that thinking about or visualizing them in 4 dimensions makes any difference at all, since I believe they have a higher dimension than that. But I think they are multidimensional only in an abstract sense, like the (x,y,z,temperature) example, not in any spatial sense.

So my answer to 1. is prolly: they don't.

2. stories are much like music, you can represent them in two dimensions, ones and zeroes one after another. However stories can invoke as many dimension as the skill of the storyteller and the imagination of the listener allow. If you make a story it becomes. If you write down a story on a piece of paper you're changing it's representation from a stream of (un)concsiousness to some squiggly lines on a 2D surface. If you'd somehow imprint the same story onto a 4D shape, you'd be changing it's representation to 4D. The story would remain the same though a 4D being might be able to grasp it all at once instead of getting it linearly. It'd be like speedreading, only better :-)
But I think the story itself, the information, never becomes solid, except in a metaphorical sense.

3. To reverse this question, what would a 4D being look like to us? If we use the mathematically sound analogy that it would be similiar to a flatlander seeing a 3D being it, we would see a 3D cross section of the 4D being.
Let's first take the simplest case, the being is a 4D hypersphere. A 3D crosssection of a hypersphere is simply a sphere. But depending on where it was located in the fourth dimension, it would change in size to us, or just disappear. It's pretty easy to picture, a 2D crosssection thru a sphere is just circles of varying sizes, if the crosssection doesn't go through the sphere, it appears as if there's nothing there.

A slightly more complicated shape is a 3D sphere that's bent like a horseshoe in the 4th dimension. What does a 2D crossection through a horseshoe look like? one to two ellipses, depending where the crosssection is taken. So such a being, moving a bit in the fourth dimension would look like two floating spheres, constantly changing sizes and positions, sometimes morphing into one, sometime disappearing completely to reappear elsewhere.

If we imagine something like the human body, but in 4D and how that would look like to us, it's would prolly be an amorphous bloody mass, changing to a white bone, becoming a gallbladder all of a sudden and being in manymany places at once, shifting. Think Lovecraft.

How that being would see us. We'd be flat to it. It could look at us just so, and we'd disappear from it's sight, like looking at a piece of paper on the edge. It could look at us from *this* direction and see our liver, touch it without us noticing a thing, move it's head a little to the akhgakn and see our heart instead. We'd be like a layer of skin, muscles, nerves, bones, innards, all spread out over the fourth dimension, though it would have a coherent structure.

4. It would see a colored line. If it had two eyes it would see two slightly different colored lines superimposed over one another. If it would move in a cirvle around the other one, the lines would change, and it could infer the other's shape from the way the lines changed when it moved.
 
 
Linus Dunce
13:13 / 04.12.02
Unless I'm allowed to move my finger in all of the first four dimensions, in which case I'm not using w to move in xyz, I can't follow the moving point. This has a similar problem to Vladimir's graph analogy. x, y, z, w, etc. values are all independent of each other. They are not lines, they are axis, and it is important to understand the distinction. Think N, S, E and W. It doesn't matter how far I travel north or south from any point, I will not have to reset my watch. Similarly, it doesn't matter how far east or west I travel from any point, I will not have to buy warmer or cooler clothes. Moving in the higher dimension(s) does not by itself change the value of the lower.

In addition, 2D beings in a 2D world would not be able to see each other, even if they could turn their zero-depth eyes towards their friends, for what they would be trying to see would have zero-depth as well. They, like the 2D CD, are not flat. They cannot be cut open. They simply don't exist in the third dimension. By way of illustration, there's nothing IRW that has a dimension of zero, so let's take a human hair, eight inches long. Place it on the ground and climb up a fifty-foot ladder. Now, look down. Can you see the hair? No? But it's eight inches long -- why can't you see it?
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:45 / 04.12.02
Unless I'm allowed to move my finger in all of the first four dimensions, in which case I'm not using w to move in xyz, I can't follow the moving point.

Thats right, you are moving just above xyz always staying really close - and so touching, if we agree on that. You aren't using w to move in xyz. You are using w to allow you to move parallel to xyz.

BTW. This isn't really a headshop thread, is it?
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:31 / 04.12.02
You aren't using w to move in xyz. You are using w to allow you to move parallel to xyz.

Which gets me where? If I'm parallel to xyz, by definition I'm no nearer to nor further from the xyz onion than I was.

This worked a whole lot better for Captain Kirk. Floating around, wrestling with his flip side, one minute his xyz ass was on the bridge, next it was in Uhura's bathroom ... amazing how they managed to capture it on film, really.
 
 
odd jest on horn
14:40 / 04.12.02
[quote]In addition, 2D beings in a 2D world would not be able to see each other, even if they could turn their zero-depth eyes towards their friends, for what they would be trying to see would have zero-depth as well. They, like the 2D CD, are not flat. They cannot be cut open. They simply don't exist in the third dimension. By way of illustration, there's nothing IRW that has a dimension of zero, so let's take a human hair, eight inches long. Place it on the ground and climb up a fifty-foot ladder. Now, look down. Can you see the hair? No? But it's eight inches long -- why can't you see it? [/quote]

This is 3D thinking. You can't see the hair because it's surface is so small. However a thing that's 8 inches long and fifty feet away in a 2D world is going to take up approximately a whole degree of your viewing (2d)volume, which is quite big enough.
 
 
odd jest on horn
14:41 / 04.12.02
crap, where's the user manual for this bulletin board, can't do quotes anymore :-(
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:58 / 04.12.02
Most people do quotes in bold like this, [b]the quote[/b], except you need pointy brackets instead of square.

I was using the hair's tiny, invisible width as a model for the 2D being's zero-depth. Zero = nada, nothing. On a computer screen or a printed page, you can see a line. But it's not really visible. I suppose by my definition, the 2D being isn't really there, either. I can live with that.
 
 
grant
15:59 / 04.12.02
Well, what makes you think you're not a 5D being who simply can't perceive the other two dimensions of your body and the bodies around you?

Obviously a 2D being can't 'see' the way we can, because light (as we know it) moves/scatters/reflects in 3D. Our senses are locked in our 3D perceptual framework. We can't even see a 2d object.

They're "imaginary" - only represented in 3 dimensions by shrinking one dimension down until we can barely perceive it.

A "square" sheet of paper is actually a cube - 8 inches wide, 11 inches long, and a few micrometers high. Take away those few micrometers in height and the paper... ceases to exist. It's only the idea of a piece of paper.

(Is this a Headshop thread or a Lab thread?)
 
 
Linus Dunce
16:33 / 04.12.02
Well, what makes you think you're not a 5D being who simply can't perceive the other two dimensions of your body and the bodies around you?

What makes you think I don't think that? I just have problems suspending my disbelief of unverified conjecture on a universe none of us can see. My apologies if I offended anybody -- in fact, I'm enjoying this thread because it's making me think.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:41 / 04.12.02
I'm probably abusing the concept of evolution here, but presuming that evolution made us what we are today, and survival of the fittest spurred on evolution, would there be an evolutionary advantage if the human species had been forced to evolve to perceive things in four or more dimensions? Is the fact that we only perceive things in three or so dimensions mean that was all we needed, or all that is practically available, with all the higher dimensions illusory?
 
 
XXII:X:II = XXX
17:50 / 04.12.02
I think that's confusing what the 4th dimension is. My (admittedly limited) understanding is that time is only considered the fourth dimension in science-fiction, in the 'we try to understand this shit for a living' department the fourth dimension is just another direction akin to depth or width that we just don't know how to point yet. I don't think that any of the 10 (or is it 12 now?) dimensions that make up our universe are supposed to be a time onethough whether you could do an 'Invisibles' and make time an object is a tantalising idea.

Yes, I read the same articles in OMNI back in '87... but I still feel that the explanation of time as the 4th dimension is far more easily understood and applied than much of these mathematical shenanigans can. Not that I believe the mechanics of the 4th dimension are simple to comprehend and don't require intense theoretical math, but I don't think it got that reputation by accident. Just as length, width and height are readily apparent measures, so is a physical presence along a scale of time. What I think is often mistaken as 4D math may in fact be the third-and-a-half dimension, since it still deals with issues of space, just freed from some of the physical restrictions found in 3D objects.

Now the FIFTH dimension is where we get into issues pertaining to the original question, involving the mind and the ways in which it interprets and acts upon data found in the previous four dimensions, based upon impressions that make a unique whole that we call personality. I don't think mathematicians tackle that one because it's there that even their most fuzzy, humanistic maths seem to be inapplicable.

2D beings in a 2D world would not be able to see each other, even if they could turn their zero-depth eyes towards their friends, for what they would be trying to see would have zero-depth as well.

You're using a 3+D perspective when you say "see." What if they used something like sonar to gain an impression of the shapes and distances of objects in their paths? Or what if they have something like x-ray vision, perceiving particles that can exist in the same 2D location as whatever they'd be passing through, yet are altered in a way by that passing to carry certain perceptual information as does light about color? Don't be such a 3D chauvinist.

And when did you ever think you'd hear that in conversation? Crazy, man, crazy.
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:42 / 04.12.02
I don't think mathematicians tackle that one because it's there that even their most fuzzy, humanistic maths seem to be inapplicable.

I think that we are getting into the realms of metaphor where "dimension" is used is to denote aspects of revelation. Extra dimensions is then just a shorthand for talking about things we aren't aware of, but has little to do with length, breadth or height except in the sense that these three dimensions are apparent and mundane. The fourth dimension is *obviously* time, because of the familiarity of this usage, which is why we need to go to 5D to maintain the requisite mystery.

One could easily replace the reference to "dimension" with some reference to the elctromagnetic spectrum that is outside of the visible. Or ultrasound, or radar, or the far distant. It is perhaps due to overfamiliarity that I find the metaphor unenlightening.

To respond to the quote above, I'd note with some irony that the construct of dimension is a mathematical one that has little to do with mind or personality. Not that it might never do so, just that if one just borrows imagery from a source, it then seems rather ungrateful to complain of the inadequacy of the original construct.

Is this a Headshop thread or a Lab thread?

Lab. Clearly.
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:53 / 04.12.02
Is this a Headshop thread or a Lab thread?

Lab. Clearly.


Still a bit mystical for the lab, isn't it?
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:29 / 04.12.02
Nah. The lab needs to shake its reputation of being a boring forum where the only discussions that happen relate to news articles. I think that scientifically slanted philosophical discussions should also go there.
 
 
Linus Dunce
23:16 / 04.12.02
Then let it be moved there via whichever dimension necessary. :-)
 
  

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