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Invisibles Volume Three Observations/Questions

 
  

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PatrickMM
14:34 / 28.11.02
Yes I know there's a bunch of threads on volume three already, but most of them were devoted to whether the trade was out, or there's the fiction suit one, which I've read and cleared up some things, but I still have questions that aren't related to that topic.

Anyway, I just finished rereading Volumes 1 and 2, and read Volume 3 for the first time. The first two volumes are indisputably brilliant, and are even better on the reread. I saw nearly everything come together, and it was nearly flawless.

Volume III felt a lot more disjointed. Particularly in the first eight issues, it felt very removed from the rest of the series. While I enjoy Mister Six and Sir Miles, I wasn't as interested in those characters as I was in what happened to our main five, and the near absence of them in the beginning was rather annoying. Still, the stories weren't bad, as both Satanstorm and Karmageddon had moments of great merit. The opening pages of the volume as Flint and Harper go after the Shoggoth were great, with the brillaint quote, "Division X! Get the Fucker in the back!" That bit made me long for a Division X ongoing.

The apperance of Mason in Karmageddon was nice, and Edith's procession to death was striking. Still, the Marquis de Sade story felt superfluous.

The worst decision of Volume III was to introduce Helga and have so much of the story go through a character who we didn't know at all. She had no real set apperance, seemingly changing from artist to artist, and had no real set character. It would have been nice to have an additional issue that gave her backstory, like each of the team got back in Volume I.

The Invisible Kingdom was crippled by the art. Earlier, I found the weak art annoying, especially when compared to the brilliant work of Jiminez and Weston in Volume II; here it often obscured the storytelling. IMO, it would have been better to have Yeowell, Thompson and Weston each do one issue of the storyline, instead of the schizophrenic switching. In the moment that should have been the climax of the series, I missed that Jack had ingested the archons, and only got that when they talked about it after the fact. It was a good idea in theory, but didn't really work.

However, the writing in that last storyline was excellent. King Mob's phone booth discussion with Jacqui was great, and the gathering of everyone together at the end worked. Also, Audrey Murray saving Mob was a brilliant touch. And, the final page (which incidentally featured better art than nearly all this storyline), was great. My only real complaint about this arc was that it may have got too out there, at the expense of the narrative, and there should have been at least one more page with John a Dreams, even if he doesn't give an explanation of what happened to him, to have him speak with King Mob would have been great.

Finally, Glitterdammerung had me rather confused, but I loved it. Even though I didn't get the specifics, I got the emotional significance. Mob's reunion with Robin was a great moment, and the final page was excellent. And the art was finally great.

Overall, I think it'll probably work better as a reread when I'm not looking forward to finding out what happens at the end, and can better appreciate the journey it takes to get there. I'd have loved to see more of our core team, and Mason, but I guess that wasn't to be. The counting down mechanism does accentuate some of the flaws, since as each issue passed it made me think more that we're getting so close to the end of the series, and we still haven't heard much from the main characters. Still, that's focusing on the negative. There were a lot of brilliant ideas in the book, and, like the rest of the series, will probably improve on the reread. And, I think that more than the other volumes, this really makes you think in different ways, and abandon all preconceptions of the universe in order to understand it, which is ultimately what Grant probably wanted to happen.

That said, I'm unclear on some things, and would appreciate it if someone could give me their opinion or the general thinking on the answers.

1. So, John a Dreams found a new kind of time machine that allowed you to completely leave the 3D and 4D planes and experience a new level of existence, in which you can inhabit multiple conciousnesses in multiple forms throughout different times? And through this, he became the gray spirit and was corrupted into Quimper, the Gnostic Satan, and Jack Flint?

2. It's probably impossible to answer this question, but what was "real" in the series? Was it all part of Robin's novel, or was it some massive multi-player game that people can tap into and experience certain characters, through a fiction suit? Or was Robin writing the novel some sort of view of the future, in that she somehow saw what would happen to her? And is "The Invisibles" mentioned in 2.20 the book written by Sir Miles? And if the story isn't a game, Mob just created a game based on his experience, and Jack plays some of it in the last issue?

3. How was Robin Edith? Were they both a manifestation of Barbelith, in that they are both essential parts of moving the race toward its higher evolution, and bringing about the new age of a sentient universe? I'm thinking that Edith's miscarriage could tie into the idea that Quimper is a representative of an abortion that Grant's girlfriend had. And one more thing, if Quimper is the baby that King Mob and Robin have, did they have him in his evil form, or was he born good, a manifestation of John a Dreams, and then corrupted into evil, or was he born evil? Or was Robin being pregnant, a comment on the birth of the universe?

4. On the last page of the series, is Jack returning to Barbelith, and returning home? Is that why he's the only person left in the white void? And on the last page of the previous issue, what point is being made concerning reality? I got the idea that Jack is saying that because we've read the book, it's as real as if it actually happened, and he's essentially recruiting someone who read the book to help him out, and she ultimately becomes Reynard of the last issue?

5. I know Morrison is outdated two-sided thinking is, and we have to expand, but what exactly is he advocating through the series, because both the Invisibles and the Archons are apparently fighting in vain, for nothing in particular.

6. If it's a rescue mission, who are they rescuing? And what's the deal with "Edith says to call on Buddha," in relative times, when is it first said, where is it distorted to, and when is it heard?

7. What has happened to Robin when she returns to the future. I take it that she understands the structure of time, that it all exists at once, and we are basically all in a time machine journeying slowly to the future, but what is meant by the comment about love she says to King Mob? I get the idea that love is supposed to be all that matters, but is there anything more specific? And, when they send her in the time machine, they send her to the end of the world, because she seems to have lost the machine? Or did she go to Barbelith, become enlightened and then come back for Mob?

8. And, what did Morrison think of the art in the Invisible Kingdom, obviously if he wanted the Ashley Wood pages redrawn, he knew there was a problem, but did he ever comment on the rest? Also, has Morrison ever commented on why the major characters of the series pretty much disappear in this volume? I've heard he said that he got lost in Volume II and this was going back to the original plans, but was there every anything more than that?

I know there's probably very few concrete answers for these, but any thoughts would be great, or if somebody could point me to interviews where Morrison talks about Volume III, that'd be awesome also. I've only seen interviews from pretty much before the series ended.

Thanks in advance.
 
 
some guy
15:18 / 28.11.02
Still, the Marquis de Sade story felt superfluous.

It's thematically relevent, though, because The Invisibles after all is ultimately about the evolution of human consciousness. de Sade arguably does more than any other character to advance this. I really enjoyed the de Sade stuff, but as we already "get it" anyway in the rest of the book, I agree it's probably superfluous.

The worst decision of Volume III was to introduce Helga and have so much of the story go through a character who we didn't know at all.

It's worth remembering that Helga was never intended to be a major character - she only became one after Morrison saw Philip Bond's illustration. Shifting away from the main cast in the third volume is also thematically important, although Morrison doesn't really carry this through.

It's probably impossible to answer this question, but what was "real" in the series?

This depends entirely on which "lens" you choose to view the series through. It's possible to see it as Robin's story, or a multi-player game, or a literal sequence of events etc. The only "lens" that I don't think works is the series as Miles' Nimoo Yoy book, unless we take all of the modern sequences as prophetic science fiction, which seems unlikely. There is no "unified theory" of The Invisibles, although it is fun to focus exclusively on a single "lens" and see where that takes you.

How was Robin Edith?

She's not, except in the abstract sense that humanity is a single organism.

On the last page of the series, is Jack returning to Barbelith, and returning home? Is that why he's the only person left in the white void?

Barbelith is gone by that point. Jack is alone because in the supercontext we are all alone, entering into our idealized realities (this is how both sides get what they want. Presumably the "bad guys" get to be victorious Nazis in their realities). We see King Mob's supercontext reality in the Winter's Edge story. Jack is in the whiteness because the supercontext is a blank slate to project our desired reality on. We don't see what Jack wants, so it's still blank. The supercontext is just another metaphor - you and I and the rest of the population have the ability to remake reality if we just try.

And on the last page of the previous issue, what point is being made concerning reality?

Jack is talking to both Reynard and the reader. Actually, the reader is spoken to directly many times in the series. The Invisibles is a spell to create Invisibles out of its readers. So yes, having read the series, the idea is that now you will share some of its viewpoints and want to change the world.

I know Morrison is outdated two-sided thinking is, and we have to expand, but what exactly is he advocating through the series, because both the Invisibles and the Archons are apparently fighting in vain, for nothing in particular.

The realization that the two sides are fighting in vain is one of the key points the series drives to. Boy "gets it" before anyone else and opts out of the fight. I believe Morrison is advocating (among other things) that there is no division between "us" and "them." Doug Rushkoff explains this concept pretty well.

What has happened to Robin when she returns to the future.

She doesn't. The machine breaks and she bounces directly into the supercontext.

And, what did Morrison think of the art in the Invisible Kingdom

He thinks it sucked.

Hope that helped. Just my interpretation of things. You can find a lot of "direct from the horse's mouth" commentary in the Anarchy for the Masses book.
 
 
Tamayyurt
15:31 / 28.11.02
1. So, John a Dreams found a new kind of time machine that allowed you to completely leave the 3D and 4D planes and experience a new level of existence, in which you can inhabit multiple conciousnesses in multiple forms throughout different times? And through this, he became the gray spirit and was corrupted into Quimper, the Gnostic Satan, and Jack Flint?

Exactly. There's a rather large thread about this, but you've got it.
 
 
The Natural Way
15:35 / 28.11.02
The baby Horus is interesting because, it seems to me, that Vol 3 is, in large part, one massive fucking invocation to the divine mother. On the one hand we have Edith, Robin and Barbelith; on the other - the qliphothic shadow - Helga, Onorthocrasi and the black iron prison. The point, of course, is to realize that they're two essential parts of the same whole. Onorthocrasi's young inevitably devour themselves whole, collapsing under the inexorable gravity of their own self-hatred, but this is simply the experience the larval mind undergoes as it sloughs its skin of limits and terror - the experience of the game being folded up and put away like Monopoly - prior to our (Horus's) birth within Barbelith and the upload into the supercontext. Onorthocrasi's young - Crom Cruach's "skin" as it is shed - are represented by Miles and the Outer Church; the butterfly that emerges is represented by Jack and his Invisible College. Read the story of the "Diamond Baphomet" again - the events that unfold around "Jack" and "Miles" in the Abbey - with this stuff in mind. Baphomet is one God, with two faces: skin and earth devouring itself, spirit and mind expanding... As above, so below. It is the process of birth yr watching - Horus's birth in microcosm/cross-section.

Gideon and John simply bump heads with this sloughed skin - that's what an unfolded timesuit is: the realm of the 3D - biological process - unpacked, extending in all directions, endlessly screwing and consuming itself.

And how is this birth experienced? What are the shape of it's ripples? Robin's child, Edith's abortion...Quimper - the shadow of the Horus child that its mother must liberate.

They are all one, Pat, not just in terms of effort, but because, in the end, the thing that's born into the supercontext - the Horus child - is composed of all of us.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
15:38 / 28.11.02
Hou answers question 6 extremely well here.
 
 
The Natural Way
15:43 / 28.11.02
Yes, Hou gives a really fucking good outline. I'm all about the crazy occult stuff.
 
 
PatrickMM
16:12 / 28.11.02
Thanks for the answers, that clears a lot up. It was mainly the idea of the supercontext that I didn't get, but it's there now. So, going along with what Laurence said, I take it that Robin's version of the supercontext is being reuinted with King Mob.

I went to order Anarchy for the Masses, but found that it was out of print, and a new version is coming out in March (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=0F9DRZGRC9&isbn=0971394229). Anyone know if this is the same book, just a modified version, or if it's something completely different.
 
 
some guy
16:22 / 28.11.02
So, going along with what Laurence said, I take it that Robin's version of the supercontext is being reuinted with King Mob.

I doubt it - Robin emerges slightly before the supercontext, when time goes wonky. Who knows what her supercontext experience is like? I don't see King Mob as her "true love" or anything...
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
18:40 / 28.11.02
where do uuuuiiiii find the time for these discussions?
 
 
--
02:55 / 29.11.02
Don't forget the butterfly also represents Lord Fanny.

Last night i realised why Jolly Roger is blind in one eye: She can only see one side of things (which is why she doesn't get what Helga is saying in Vol.3 number 4).
 
 
The Natural Way
08:33 / 29.11.02
Hmmm. I quite like that idea.

Well, Loz, I think KM's final bow - Robin embracing him w/ the words "Is all now love" - has its emotional impact significantly lessened if we don't believe they're pretty fucking special to each other. Stop being such a miseryguts.

Hou's post on the other thread reminded me of the MeMeplex reading I drummed up yonky's years ago. The purpose of the game being to reintegrate the "billion masks of God"/characters in the story/warring idea viruses - encourage them to make friends w/ each other; to mercurialise (I just made that word up) the divided self - it's disparate components flowing in and out of each other, like water w/ water (s'fun to start thinking about what the timesuit means in this context). We can exteriorize/literalise this process (as Hou, quite rightly, does), understanding it as the point where society does away w/ the limiting idea-technology of "the individual"; or we can take the microcosmic, occult, approach where the recognition/activation of the MeMeplex serves to describe one mind/one organism achieving an internal unity. Or the meta-approach where both perspectives blur into one another - the inside and the outside: as above, so below. No difference, same thing. And now we're really talking Horuspeak.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
09:19 / 29.11.02
Quick question: what's everyone's take on the way that the the King-of-all-Tears makes its final appearance, zooming into reality from a time machine-shaped outline?

(Apologies if this one's been answered elsewhere - I'm starting to lose track of all these threads)
 
 
The Natural Way
10:12 / 29.11.02
Well, I don't know - there's a gap or something left for him to fill. In actuality I tend to think it's just a coincidence - he doesn't "zoom in", anyway. If you look, he's building his spacetime suit out've the local surroundings: the floor, the wires... Y'know, like the thing underneath the church in Vol 2.
 
 
some guy
11:24 / 29.11.02
Well, Loz, I think KM's final bow - Robin embracing him w/ the words "Is all now love" - has its emotional impact significantly lessened if we don't believe they're pretty fucking special to each other.

On the other hand, if all now is love, any two characters should be acting that way (though Reynard's freak makes me think this isn't the case). Robin left KM without too much trauma; KM got over her fast enough with a string of girlfriends. I think it would have worked much better to have put Jacqui in that moment. It's nice to think of Robin and KM as fated lovers or something, but the book just doesn't bear that out.

what's everyone's take on the way that the the King-of-all-Tears makes its final appearance, zooming into reality from a time machine-shaped outline?

I think the King-of-all-Tears might be the time machine. Don't forget we see the time machine in organic form in Philadelphia, too. Maybe it, like Barbelith, appears to us based on our cultural expectation? So the techies see a machine, John sees Lovecraftian madness etc.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:19 / 29.11.02
On the last page of the series, is Jack returning to Barbelith, and returning home? Is that why he's the only person left in the white void?

... We don't see what Jack wants, so it's still blank.


Or possibly, if he's Buddha, then he's achieved Nirvana?
 
 
Baz Auckland
13:19 / 29.11.02
On the last page of the series, is Jack returning to Barbelith, and returning home? Is that why he's the only person left in the white void?

Barbelith is gone by that point. Jack is alone because in the supercontext we are all alone, entering into our idealized realities (this is how both sides get what they want. Presumably the "bad guys" get to be victorious Nazis in their realities). We see King Mob's supercontext reality in the Winter's Edge story. Jack is in the whiteness because the supercontext is a blank slate to project our desired reality on. We don't see what Jack wants, so it's still blank. The supercontext is just another metaphor - you and I and the rest of the population have the ability to remake reality if we just try.

Wow....I never knew that and reading this has really made my day... wow. wow.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:30 / 29.11.02
Still, in the end even Gideon's absorbed into the light (Grant describes the Stargrave story as the moment before fusion with the supercontext). The experience of "idealised reality" is what occurs the moment before entrance into the supercontext. Like the last burst of light at the event horizon of a singularity. It's a bardo condition.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:00 / 29.11.02
supercondensed information - the juice.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:41 / 29.11.02
Robin left KM without too much trauma; KM got over her fast enough with a string of girlfriends.

But Grant didn't. It makes more sense if KM, for that one moment at least, is his avatar. Anyway, the Gideon/Jacqui relationship isn't explored enough for it to have the same emotional impact - the Robin/KM partnership is a (the) pretty bleedin' major one in Volume 2.

I think the King-of-all-Tears might be the time machine.

Ah, so I'm not the only one.

If you look, he's building his spacetime suit out've the local surroundings: the floor, the wires... Y'know, like the thing underneath the church in Vol 2.

Arse. Forgotten about that.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:43 / 29.11.02
Squit. Cut/paste catastrophe.
 
 
The Natural Way
14:46 / 29.11.02
Maybe. I just see absolutely no need for it.
 
 
PatrickMM
15:34 / 29.11.02
But Grant didn't. It makes more sense if KM, for that one moment at least, is his avatar. Anyway, the Gideon/Jacqui relationship isn't explored enough for it to have the same emotional impact - the Robin/KM partnership is a (the) pretty bleedin' major one in Volume 2.
<>

I've got to agree with this. Over the course of Volume II, we see how close they are together, and how they both save each other. Robin helps King Mob to change from his violent path, and Mob helps Robin to fulfill her destiny, and helps her time journey with the buddha phrase. In the end, they are both happy for once, because they are together. KM may have been with other women during the intervening years, but I think he was always thinking about Robin. If Quimper is Robin and KM's baby, and he is all that is good, the "light," it would imply that together Robin and KM are "all love." Just my take on it, but I know that scene when they were reuinted was the most effective scene in all of Volume III.
 
 
Tamayyurt
16:08 / 29.11.02
On Quimper being KM and Robin's baby; what does this mean? I know it's been stated before and I sort of took it at face value but, how is Quimper their child? Unborn? Miscarried? Aborted? Was Robin pregnant when she entered the supercontext and didn't know it? And did her kid enter the game board as Quimper/John? Too many questions... someone please explain.
 
 
some guy
16:08 / 29.11.02
If Quimper is Robin and KM's baby

He's not...
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
18:15 / 29.11.02
the supercontext is robin and mob's baby.

baby.
 
 
PatrickMM
20:44 / 29.11.02
So, what's the significance of Robin saying if she had a baby she would name it Quimper? Is what happened to her adult self in 1998 somehow affecting her memories, or does she have memories of Quimper as "a little light," from her real childhood and is trying to recall those? Any theories.
 
 
some guy
23:13 / 29.11.02
We know Quimper can't be Robin's baby because she never has time to come to term. Also, I think she said she'd name her baby Quimper if it was a girl, and Quimper is a man. I like the theory put forth in Anarchy for the Masses about vindicating names - IIRC they make that link with Reynard, too.
 
 
The Falcon
23:30 / 29.11.02
Morrison has said Quimper was an abortion he and a girlfriend had, who popped up in the story 'to let him know he/it was there', or somesuch.

So, I do think Quimper is, in some form, KM and Robin's baby; I can't remember where, but there's a bit of KM narrative where he says 'Robin tells me she's pregnant'; the telling having been done just before she leaves.

Yawn, can you expand on your last post? I don't understand.
 
 
--
03:02 / 30.11.02
I like the idea of the supercontext being a blank piece of paper where anyone can create exactly the world they want. That's an nexciting concept to me. If I could get a blank slate of paper and create my own dream world... that would be awesome. I never saw the ending like that until now. It makes sense if you compare it with what King Mob was saying at the end of Arcadia where everyone gets exactly the world they want, even the bad guys.

I prefer that theory to the idea where everyone becomes just one. I might be old fashioned but I still think individuality is a good thing (which is why I disagree with Quimper and how he says individuality is a disease). If everyone was the same, I dunno... sounds kinda boring. "We must destroy diversity". I disagree on that one...
 
 
The Natural Way
09:33 / 01.12.02
Quimper is Onorthocrasi's child. The child of ignorance, terror and the machine. He's Edith's abortion in Harrods. He's the shadow of the Horus Child. The abortion. This is magic, people, it's the sympathies and iterations that count. Ripples. Again.

And the Horus child IS Robin's, inspite of what the 'Anarchy for the Masses' guys think. The drawing down of the mother/dark mother in Vol 3 (esp vol 3 5); the picture of the baby within Barbelith, with the words "the placenta crashing....'I'm pregnant', Robin says'"...that stuff's not a coincidence or a "red herring". Christ, what does Robin come out with as soon as she emerges from the supercontext:

"Baby in a dream on sex"

She's giving birth to the story in the tank - the Invisibles is emerging around her and within her.

Coming to term? Bloody hell... Do you think 9 months matters to THEM?

Who do you think represents the divine mother, anyway? She's got barbelith on her cheeks, for Davebrian's sake!

The naysayers are missing out on a HUGE chunk of this "story". But believe what you like...
 
 
arcboi
10:33 / 01.12.02
Without reading Anarchy For The Masses - or a good selection of GM's interviews - it's difficult to put some of the theories expressed here and GM's actual authorial intent into context, interesting and thought provoking as they may be.

I get the impression that Quimper represents GM's girlfriend's abortion in the same way that a lot of real life events will inspire ideas in the story. But he's not actually KM and Robin's baby in the story itself.

I'm not sure about this "divine mother" stuff. I can't find anything in the text that states this or infers it. I was under the impression that by the onset of the Supercontext, humanity manages to ditch the use of models and masks. As Mictlantehcutli tells Fanny: "We gods are only masks. Who wears us? Find it out!". I think even KM makes a sarcastic comment to Jacqui in an earlier issue about waiting around for space aliens to save the planet. He can't do that though, he has to take an active role in events and eventually all humanity has to get involved to arrive at the events of the Supercontext.

I actually like the idea that The Invisibles is several things at once: It's a story written by Robin, it's a game in a can, it's a comic you buy. As has been mentioned before in other threads, your view of the story will change depending on which model you decide to use.
 
 
some guy
13:21 / 01.12.02
Runce, you're making an awful lot of inferences based on authorial comments outside the text here. You're also assuming that because some posters point out that Quimper isn't Robin's baby on a literal level, we're also missing the thematic importance of the series' images and events. This isn't so - there is no literal Orthonocrasi in The Invisibles. On a literal level, Quimper is not Edith's abortion. On a literal level, Robin cannot ever give birth.

On the level of metaphor ... yes, everything paints a cool picture. But the one interpretation is not somehow more valid than the other.

There is no Horus child.
 
 
The Falcon
13:34 / 01.12.02
Doesn't Reynard represent Horus' aeon, though?

Good explanation, Runce. I'm still waiting for you to unlock the secrets of the coronation in the 'Outer Church' thread; I'm not afraid.
 
 
dlotemp
23:01 / 01.12.02
Actually, I kind of like Runce's theory too. Nice thing about the Invisibles is that "everyone gets the world they deserve."

and the law of the land shall be "do as thou wilt."

PS - if we want to get really hyper-textual, the Horus child is MARVEL BOY. He skipped publishing companies once the Invisibles was finished.
 
 
The Falcon
01:46 / 02.12.02
I like it!

Travelling the hyperverse, as Gods do.
 
  

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