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'fake' religion

 
 
T
13:18 / 02.08.01
has anybody noticed the proliferation of religious themes on the internet? much of it seems like satire and parody, like jesus christ's own homepage (members.aol.com/jesus316) or the centre for duck studes that venerates the holy duck and implores converts to become one with their iner duck (jagaimo.com/duck). but it is less clear the intention behind the posting of other sites, for example The Cult of the New Eve (critical-art.net/cone), the Virtual Church of the Blind Chihuahua (dogchurch.org), or the Church of Virus (lucifer.com/virus). and what of the First Satantic Church (the600club.net/church) that was created to "establich a satanic presence in cyberspace"? has anyone come across the Kick Ass Post Apocalyptic Doomsday Cult of Love? the page has been moved or more likely taken down about a year ago, but it was the best example i've come across yet of what you could call 'fake' religion.

clearly such a conceptual catagory is not particularly helpful. for one thing, what criteria does one use to establish authenticity? the thing about a fake is that the more fake it is, the better the fake, the more difficult it is to distinguish from the real thing. and so the boundaries become not only fluid and ambiguous, but also porous. popular cultural artefacts slip easily between authenticity and fakery. more examples: creation science, neopaganism, Jews for Jesus, david icke's reptlian conspiracy, the debate around fakelore versus folklore and also, from this perspective, all the examples mentioned earlier.

i guess the question i'm getting at is this; with the available tools of critical theory as well as the theoretical innovations we can devise (without falling back on the anything goes rhetoric of some strands of postmodernism), what can we say about authenticity and religion and the role religion plays in popular culture? where do we locate authenticity?

any ideas?
 
 
grant
15:28 / 02.08.01
Authenticity is one of the frontiers of rationality. That's what I think.

Religion is one expression of a vast area of our unconscious; a means of translating a lot of what we process without paying attention.

The joke religions try to make you pay attention to the irrational foundations of personality.

Tried to get this point across in one disastrously ill-fated oral report on surrealism.
 
 
T
18:00 / 02.08.01
but you're assuming the intentionality of the author i.e. that it is a joke. and while no doubt many 'fakes' are intended as humourous satires, many are also intended as serious alternatives to dominant ideas of what religion is e.g. the church of virus. do you thing religion is an irrational foundation of personality?

still, i don't think assessments on intentionality are a useful way to move forward, firstly because short of asking the individual authors what their indivudal sites are on about, intention cannot be assessed. but more importantly, becuase we're talking about a social process, a phenomenon, a cumulation of statements that says more about the understadning of religion in the popular imagination that the individual authors either could or intend to convey.

stepping away from modes of production or consumption, but can the phenomenon of fake religion in the fluid ambivalent space of cyberspace tell us about authenticity and popular culture artefacts, whatever they may be?

you might know this already, but the frankfurt theorists got excited about the emancipatory possibilities of surealism in the 1930s, if you're still interested in the topic. i haven't looked at it too closely myself.
 
 
SMS
09:37 / 03.08.01
Our view of what is authentic is changing from "what is ancient" to "what is new."

As the novelty in our universe increases, it begins to dominate the social consciousness and give itself more validity than the old ways.

It's the transition from verticle meme transfer to horizontal meme transfer.

Grant Morrison sort of predicted "post nowist," which to me carries the attitude of "Today is old hat. We've been doing today for thousands of years. Give me tomorrow."
 
 
Devin 1984
09:37 / 03.08.01
Authentic religion is nearly an oxymoron.

I think the role it plays in popular culture now, at least in America, is to create a sense of tribalism or community. When people post fake religious sites, I think they are just poking fun at the ridiculous nature of religion in the first place. They are pointing out that their "fairy tales" are no different or more absurd than most established religions. I think it is merely an entertaining way to make people think twice about what they believe.
 
 
SMS
09:37 / 03.08.01
quote:[/QUOTE]...their "fairy tales" are no different or more absurd than most established religions....[/QB]
Two possible reactions to this are
1) No, I guess my religious beliefs are pretty silly or
2) Yes, I suppose these "fairy tales" are just as valid as any other religion. Maybe there's something in them.
 
 
the Fool
09:37 / 03.08.01
I think you should read Kurt Vonnegut's 'Cat cradle'. He makes a very good point about all religion being based on lies, and that this is a necessary fact of a functioning religion.

I think religion in modern society acts as a sort of informational 'plug' for people. It stops people being flooded with uncertainy and multiplicity. A one stop answer from all those big questions. A pre-packaged metaphysic - you don't need to know how it works just as long as it does. It gets rid of all that confusing existential saddness that doesn't seem to have any point.

It simplifies peoples' realities, reducing existance to a preset transactional process. You do this (follow religion), you get this (reward of heaven)... its all very simple. And if you believe in it, its true. Of course you have to wear penalties if you attempt to deviate from the process, and if you stray to far you won't get the reward.
 
 
T
12:48 / 03.08.01
in the discussion above it seems there is a general consensus on what we mean by the term 'religion' - we're talking about a formal institution, a community of members or congregation of faithful, a mythology or sacred history. we're desribing the major world religions as we know them and saying that's religion, that's what religion looks like and if you're looking for religion, look for something that looks like that.

so is coca-cola a religion? a formal institution with a sacred history traced back to the prophet john pemberton in 1886, a vast proselytising patriarchal netwrok of cocacola men that spread the gospel across the planet with missionary zeal, consolidating a gloabl congregation of coca-cola faithful? it looks like a religion, it feels like a religion, and goddamn, it even tastes like a religion! so is it a real religion, an authentic religion?

and maybe pepsi is just a cheap imitation, a fake relgion, by different interpretations either making a mockery of religion like the Centre for Duck Studies, or presenting its idea of a viable alternative, arguably like the Church of Virus.

and what about the role of power, the surplus power located in the faithful consumer, generated by their commodity fetishism, appropriated by these multinational relgions. or maybe it isn't appropriated as much as it is given willingly because that is the value the consumers attach to the object of their desire, that can of black gold, the central object in a ritual of exchange

i don't like the idea of a "preset transactional process", reducing people's existence and so on. you're denying human agency in the (re)production of their world. the can of coke, the christian cross, the mountain, the hamburger, these are all objects, popular artefacts with no intrinsic value or meaning. they are charged with the symbolic meaning we invest them with. while certainly there are constellations of meaning that assert a hegemonic influence in the political economy of symbols and meaning, we still engage them as individuals, we still have our individual agency. what do you mean by preset transactional process? preset by who? who author's this preset existence? who is the author of existence? who is the author of creation? as a theological statement it seems to me far too linear and offers a simplified and reduced understanding of the process. it says nothing of the creative engagement that is the substance of the exchange between my subjectivity and the objective world i engage. and again back to the point, where is authenticity located in all this.

i read cats cradle a few years ago. thanks for reminding me of it, i'm going looking for it again.
 
 
grant
14:54 / 03.08.01
quote:Originally posted by T:
so is coca-cola a religion? a formal institution with a sacred history traced back to the prophet john pemberton in 1886, a vast proselytising patriarchal netwrok of cocacola men that spread the gospel across the planet with missionary zeal, consolidating a gloabl congregation of coca-cola faithful? it looks like a religion, it feels like a religion, and goddamn, it even tastes like a religion! so is it a real religion, an authentic religion?


The Coca-Cola Kid covered some of this ground, if I remember right.

I think it's an authentic religion if it defines itself with regards to irrationality and Things Beyond Our Control.
Providing an explanation for Why Things Happen in a way that goes beyond simple causality to some sort of fundamental cause. Gods, karma, spirits, Natural Law, something like that.

quote:
who is the author of existence? who is the author of creation? as a theological statement it seems to me far too linear and offers a simplified and reduced understanding of the process. it says nothing of the creative engagement that is the substance of the exchange between my subjectivity and the objective world i engage. and again back to the point, where is authenticity located in all this.


I'd say authenticity comes from the act of grappling with fundamentals - providing acceptable (seemingly rational) explanations for the unseen & unknowable.

Discordianism and the Church of the SubGenius work so well because they're, on the face of it, a "joke" or "fake" religion, but under that joke, they offer an authentic explanation for Why (and How) Things Are - that is, in a nutshell, the universe is built on a bedrock of chaos in which arbirtrary perceptual frames create the illusion of order.
They explicitly state this Truth as well as exhibit it implicitly by offering some VERY arbitrary frames through which to filter your perceptions (God is a Crazy Woman, God is a Super Salesman).
 
 
SMS
23:35 / 03.08.01
Irrationality and things beyond our control:

The only people who say there aren't things beyond our control are chaos magicians, as far as I know. For instance, most people will tell you that information cannot travel faster than the speed of light. It's beyond our control.

Then, irrational thinking is pretty common. People who won't go to the doctor, because they're afraid of finding out they have cancer. The only thing that particular thought actually defines is itself. The entire basis of itself is irrational, but I cannot accept it into a proper definition of religion.

So you might look for intense emotional experience for religious definition, but that's not a very good one since it excludes people who go to church every week feeling a little bored, or people who just firmly believe that there is a god or are gods.

Ah, maybe that's it. Faith. Believing in something without any proof. Except most of us rely on the word of others to construct most of our beliefs. Some chaos magicians (for instance Grant Morrison) say that you shouldn't believe anything until testing it for yourself. This may be his skepticism more than his chaoteism, but even so... I doubt that anyone would be able to pull something like this kind of belief off.

So you could say that it is perfectly rational to believe what the scientists say, because they have been educated, they don't seem like liars, they have, by many accounts been responsible for developing technologies, and so on... But four hundred years ago, this could apply to Christians in Europe as well.

I really doubt that religion can be reduced to something so simple. And I don't think it can be defined very easily. Unless you say it has concern for the spiritual realm. After you define the spiritual realm. Which is fine.

I've done it for myself personally, but my definition doesn't match that of others.

T, I'm maybe a bit confused by what your authenticity question is. Are you wasking what can make a religion authentic or what makes people think it is authentic.

Also,


T, who have you ben reading?

[edit]
I just realized that this last question may be taken the wrong way. I don't mean to imply that these ideas are not your own. I was just curious, because I thought they might be books I would be interested in. I probably made assumptions that I shouldn't have, but, y'know, I hate to offend unintentionally.

[ 04-08-2001: Message edited by: SMatthewStolte ]
 
 
Seth
23:35 / 03.08.01
quote: I think religion in modern society acts as a sort of informational 'plug' for people. It stops people being flooded with uncertainy and multiplicity. A one stop answer from all those big questions. A pre-packaged metaphysic - you don't need to know how it works just as long as it does. It gets rid of all that confusing existential saddness that doesn't seem to have any point.

I wish...

Sorry, pal. It just doesn't work like that. The mindset that makes people think that way is present both inside and outside of organised religion.
 
 
T
15:00 / 04.08.01
from the above discussion, there are a couple of ideas about what religion is: "irrational thinking", "intense emotional experience", a question of "faith", the religion of orthodox "science", a "pre-packaged metaphysic" - and one could add countless more. trying to relate some of theses ideas togewther, irrational thinking is a pronoucement from 'outside' i.e.the person whos thought it is presumably doens't belive it is irrational, it is rationalised to themselves in whatever way. pre-packaged metaphysic is also an 'outside' pronouncement. by contrast emotional experiecne is 'inside', the experience is respected and valued as being of that person experiencing it. similarly with faith. and then the science-religion contrast doesn't go anywhere, apples and pears, literal and figurative - unbless you're comparing similar and dissimilar elements between the paradigms, but that also reduces to who is inside/outside which paradigm.

it don't think the inside/outside binary works that well because ultimately it comes down to competing subjectivities and the object is lost. perhaps a more useful model is the triangular relationship between production, consumption and the artefatc being produced and consumed, in this case religion. perhaps it is in the tensions, contestations between these different poles that the authenticity of the arrtefact is negotiated, and then not for all tiem, but until a new tension or contestation is introduces.

out there in the world, in the market place for gods and symbols, meaning and their symbolic representations are continuously appropriated, co-opted, alliances are made and broken, constantly under negotiation. think about burning a national flag, illegal sacrilege and the height of incitement when islamic militants burn the US flag in lebanon, a civil religious celebration when ritually burned under the auspices of the US government when 'decommitioned'. what are the contestations of meaning happening here? how are these different meanings produced and consumed and how does it construct the artefact?

another idea to play with, this is the digital age, infobahns, hyperways, hyper reality, reality is superceding itself. umberto eco played this up nicely in his commentry in the 1970s on american popular culture's obsession with themeparks and holographic meauseums, where you can experience the mona lisa better than if you were in the louvre. more real than the real thing, in this meuseum you walk into a holographic reproduction of leonardo's studio. there he sits at the easle, adding the final touches to his masterpiece, while his model sits in her chair, holding the smile. this is more real than looking at the artefact hanging on the wall, you're there, in the scene. this is hyperreality. same with themeparks, total immersion in the davey crocket wild frontier, there he is doind his davey thing etc and so on. this is hyperreality where the fake supercedes the real,the fake is more real than the real. and mapped onto the production-consumption-artefact model, hmmm, i don't know,any takers?

(eco's book is called "faith in fakes: travels in hyperreality" and is still in print, if anyone is interested.)

[editted to remove some typo's]

[ 04-08-2001: Message edited by: T ]
 
 
T
11:02 / 13.08.01
this is dissapointing, no takers. so much for radical theorising.
 
 
grant
17:03 / 13.08.01
What does hyperreality have to do with internet religions?
 
 
Saint Keggers
02:04 / 14.08.01
Religion: God's 'Shroedinger's Cat'.
 
 
netbanshee
04:32 / 14.08.01
I think the idea of "fake" religions are fine. They're often times not as dangerous as the "real" ones. Hell, right now I'm working on a site for a Christian Law Firm...something also very oxymoronical if you think of it.

But the ideas are trying to inject the concept of fun into eternity which is something religion desperately needs...takes itself do damn seriously.
 
  
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