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A Foundation Of Lies And A Facade Of Convenience

 
 
z3r0
16:25 / 31.07.01
Language weaves the fabric of everything you can see, touch and think of. Because you're trapped inside your skull your only access to reality is through your nerves, and the only way to deal with reality is using this complex system of concepts and the way they relate to each other through verbalization, inner and/or outer.

We are constantly remembered of this fact. Many gods have already created our Universe using words; We use language to infuse an orderly model of reality into computing systems; Legal documents rely heavily in each word's literal and clearer than clear meaning. Magicians hack their subconscious with words, and we compartimentalize our surroundings broadening and narrowing the scope of meaning, with the same word for "dreaming" and "doing" - or nine different words for "snow". There are many other examples, and better ones, that I know you people from Barbelith will come up with.

Now, what is the impact of a lie in this context? Having this heavily language-based tool, our brain, as the only one we can use to relate to the world, AND assuming that words HAVE the mystical importance that the qabalists say they have, what is the weight of "making an untrue statement with the intent to deceive"?

Looking to our little planet's recorded history, I have noticed this sad pattern coming too often to be ignored. Looking at our surroundings, from the minimal details (having to wake up early in the morning to work) to the big issues (hole in the ozone layer, hothouse effect), I can't help but relate all this big mess to the constant, premeditated assault on the structure of reality.

One just has to look at the examples through History: Kings would rule, kill and allow to live, rape, build and burn, solely based on a big, bod lie, that God had given them this right from birth. The Church would torture and kill because the Devil roamed the Earth, and possessed the unfaithful. Again, a lie, just the one the Church in Brazil told when they said it was OK to traffick black people "because, unlike the indians, they didn't have a soul". Or the lies that Hitler told to justify Again, you can come up with dozens of examples of how, during our history, reality was heavily distorted to fit in the views and interests of a dominant class.

We have spent valuable time learning - no, not learning, just handling the best we could the issues that have arisen from all the lies they have cast upon us. We spent time fighting the French and in many other revolutions, to right the wrongs they did to us, just to see new forms of lies appear.

I am a skeptical to most of mystical related issues, but I believe that everything has a system and a path, a way to happen, and this path, this system, in my humble opinion, is particularly sensitive to lies.

What leaves me with the question: If this polluted planet, that gets warmer every year, filled with low-wage workers and malnutritioned children, boiling with marketing viruses and corporate archons, ruled by few, is the result of hundreds of year of systematic lies that people just were too apathic or too powerless to fight, what would be our environment like, if we have had, instead of this foundation of lies and this facade of convenience, a foundation of truth?

Any thoughts, contributions? Have I missed the point here?
 
 
z3r0
17:10 / 31.07.01
..."to justify his crimes" (In the bit referring to Hitler. Sorry about that.)
 
 
z3r0
17:12 / 31.07.01
"fighting the French Revolution, and many others" -
wish it was easier to express myself in another language... again, sorry.
 
 
Fishboy
17:44 / 31.07.01
Your point is a fine point, but don't forget that people are learning not to lie, it just takes thousands of years.
 
 
6opow
17:46 / 31.07.01
"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
when first we practice to deceive."


"Lies can often lead to power."-NoMeansNo.

z3r0, you are very much "onto" something here. In the terms that you have laid out, we can look at the world (our experiences of it via consciously mediated sensory experience) as a big system of information. Now, it seems that it would only make too much sense that the information that is exchanged between broadcaster and receiver ought to reflect to the highest possible degree what is actually occurring with respect to some structure (be this structure a Language game, a reality tunnel, etc.).

What is denoted by the word, "lie" is nothing more than disinformation; that is, lies are not information at all, but noise which serves to distort and pervert the "reality."

You hit on the main idea in your post (and it is reflected in the NoMeansNO quote above): lies allow for a quick and dirty means to power. If an individual can deceive others, then that individual gains power of the people s/he is deceiving. The lust for power, a shadow trait of any human, drives the need to spread noise, as opposed to sharing information which is "true."

So, without further rambling and carrying on, you are correctly sensing that whatever this "reality" is, it is easily corrupted by deception. I would hazard the guess that had people never had to cope with disinformation, noise, and lies, then our world would be very close to many of the utopia's portrayed by various idealists.
 
 
Dharma Bum
18:08 / 31.07.01
There seems to be a pretty fundamental distinction that you aren't making, that I think is important, the difference between a "lie" as a deliberate attempt to decieve, and the actions of someone who is mis-or-underinformed but genuinely good-intentioned.

While I don't dispute the immorality of many of their actions, many Christian missionaries did genuinely believe that they would be helping natives by forcibly converting them and destroying their aboriginal lifestyle. They genuinely believed that there was a big bearded guy up in the sky or whatever who gave them this book that very clearly gave them instructions on what to do.

Even two people who may have the best of intentions on how to save the world will disagree if they have different perceptions of the world's problems and solutions...

Most Republicans I've talked to personally, at least, aren't lieing when they say the free market and capitalism are the best means to ensure the creation of wealth. They believe that with all their heart, based on the facts they belive they know, on the model of reality they have in their heads. Their model of reality may be quite different from mine, but you must remember that to them its valid.
 
 
corona
19:36 / 31.07.01
in this context and also the brass eye media circus-NoMeansNo:"good intent and honesty do not redeem stupidity."
 
 
SMS
01:05 / 01.08.01
From whom is the stupid one denied redemption?

Welcome, corona. Hope you find yourself at home
(of course, if you're just a fiction suit of another member, then I suppose you do) .
 
 
z3r0
10:59 / 01.08.01
Dharma Bum: The point about one believing in the righteousness of things they're saying and doing is a delicate one. You raised up an interesting angle to discuss this topic.

I really don't want to get into the validity of such acts as the one you cited (the jesuits), because I firmly believe that one day in the future we will be able to look back in the past and wonder how we could have lived 2000 years under the biggest lie of them all, the one which tells us that there is a God up above. And then we will be able to place the jesuits actions, the Inquisition, the 99 thesis etc, in the same bin: "ACTS PERPETRATED IN THE NAME OF A BIG, BOLD LIE"

You see that if I had mentioned this, I would have given the ones who believe in God an opportunity to point out how biased and imperfect my statement was. They could even try to ask "what is the nature of the truth" or any other diverting questions.

I'm really worried here about all the things that surround us and that are direct or indirect result of they lying to us shamelessly through history.

Here in Brazil we have a saying: "Hell is full of good-intentioned people".
 
 
Jamieon
11:40 / 01.08.01
<pendantic cock> Shouldn't that be "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"? <pedantic cock>
 
 
z3r0
12:20 / 01.08.01
Oh, so you guys have it in English, too...
good to know
 
 
The Mr E suprise
12:24 / 01.08.01
I may be wrong, but the word Writer used to (in the origin of the english language) mean to poison. (as in peoples thoughts)
 
 
z3r0
12:22 / 02.08.01
So, hmmm... a topic with ramifications to magick, linguistics, political history, shameless divagations about the structure of reality etc is of no interest, I presume... *sigh*
 
 
Rialto
12:24 / 02.08.01
Patience, young Skywalker. It's only been dormant a day.
 
 
deletia
22:08 / 02.08.01
And the levels on which I find the whole thing dubious are too multifarious to marinate quickly.
 
 
z3r0
00:43 / 04.08.01
you sissies
 
 
Jamieon
08:25 / 04.08.01
What is this weird thing you have with TRUTH, Zero?

Do you think you're being LIED to all the time?

Who are THEY, and what do THEY want?
 
 
dlotemp
10:52 / 04.08.01
I have found Zero's discussion interesting but feel that everyone has an unspoken, moral view of lies as a "bad" thing. While reading the discussion, I was thinking if lies were totally a human construct and came to the realization that I don't think they are. Lies occur in nature; memorably seen in the cuckoo who lays its eggs in other birds' nest. Lies are also found in virii that disguise their nature to protect themselves from the immune system. Perhaps, lies even exist in non-living events like the existence of stars or string theory. The discussion seems to have an implication that the world would be a better place without lies - I don't know if that is true (pun not intended).
 
 
Mordant Carnival
18:43 / 04.08.01
z3r0: this is really interesting.

For myself, I find it hard to concieve of a world without lies. Cuckoos, virii and... oh, I dunno, bee-orchids aside, don't we all indulge in some sort of misrepresentation?

eg: A young lad holidays in Amsterdam. He's a bit of an art fiend, so he takes in the Van Goghs and the museums, and goes for lots of pleasant strolls along the canals.

He also decides to sample the local coffee-shops, and indulges a long-treasured fantasy involving silk stocking bondage and a ping-pong bat with one of the local women of negotiable affection.

When he gets home, his mates ask him what happened. He tells them about the hooker and the spacecake, but neglects to inform them that he was so moved by Vincent's landscapes that he wept like a kid in front of twenty Japanese tourists.

His mother asks him what happened, and he tells her about walking along the canals, which museums he went to, but omits the near epiphany he experienced duing his erotic power-exchange.

Has he altered his own perceptions of his experiences as well as his freinds?

Has he cheapened himself in some way, or was he merely being protective of his mother's feelings?

What has he changed?
 
 
z3r0
22:55 / 04.08.01
quote: Lies occur in nature; memorably seen in the cuckoo who lays its eggs in other birds' nest.
See?? Not that hard.
dlotemp: fine observation. The reason why I posted this was also to gather information on this subject - how old civilizations viewed lies, how lies can occur in nature.
This is a topic which can develop in so many interesting directions...I'll post more when I have time, for now, a question:

Still qabalistically talking, if you verbalize a lie, then isn't it much more dangerous than a deceitful act (that I believe, occurs without moral questioning)
perpetrated by an animal?

runt: It is true. I am obsessed with the concept of truth. Whether its real, whether its a construct - what can I say? Its a point to which I'm always coming back. Think of me like on of yours young, inexperient jedi apprentices...
 
 
Dharma Bum
19:21 / 05.08.01
Actually, that set me thinking:
Qaballisticlly speaking, rearranging words whether orally or on paper was the key to power. What wasn't important, as far as I understand, was whether or not the words were "true"--

Ie, rearranging letters in the bible to form nonsense words and phrases that would give you power, not because they meant anything, but through the process through which they were created. Okay, admittedly, my understanding of it is limited at best.

Here's another question for ya: How much responsibility for the fucked up situation of the world is placed on the "liars", and how much is placed on the masses who are too apathetic to ever question the veracity of the statements of their leaders?

The opposite of lieing, in this sense, isn't just telling a true statement, it's telling a statement that your audience can independently confirm, if they so desire. It's providing a bibliography.

Boy, would my junior high school teachers be ecstatic to hear that phrase.
 
  
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