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Happy B-day Peace Mango!

 
  

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Papess
20:01 / 17.11.02
November 30th, by the Gregorian Calendar, is Peace Mango's Birthday!

By Lunar Calendar, the date would be the Full Moon of November 19/20th, the thirteenth moon after the initial launch. On ths date, not only is there a Lunar Eclipse as there was last year but also the Leonid Meteor Showers. Another interesting point of synchronicity is that the following New Moon is also a Solar Eclipse as it was last year for the second launch we did.

So, this is a celebration for Tranducer-Peace Mango and a chance to thank hir for all the wonderful work ze has helped us with.

I will be conducting ritual for Peace Mango on both the 19/20th and again on the 30th. All are welcome in the celebrations.


Happy Birthday Peace Mango!!
 
 
ShadowRain
12:35 / 18.11.02
That's wonderful If you could give me an idea of how to tune into the celebration from South Africa, as well as an approximate in GMT, it would be great

Love & light
Shadow
 
 
Badbh Catha
13:07 / 18.11.02
It would be a good time to look back and see exactly how successful this Transducer has been in doing what was proposed in the past year.

Perusing the linked thread it seems to be some sort of "world peace" sigil or servitor; world peace is a tall order, which hasn't really happened. In fact the world seems even closer to war than ever before...

I also noticed some commentary on this sigil's ability to feed on "negative energy", as it were:

S/he is capable of transforming evil into into goodness.

Surely "evil" and "goodness" are relative terms? What seems "evil" to one person will seem "good" to another...even on the same bulletin board. If various people with differing concepts of "good" or "evil" lend their energy to charging such a sigil or servitor (which is it, BTW?), won't that merely confuse matters and muck up the Transducer's capability for discernment?

Does the Transducer indeed thrive on ill will, disputes and acts of war? Do the participants feel that the Transducer has successfully...excreted a sense of kindness and goodwill over the past year? Either in terms of current events or in terms of interactions on the board?

How many people who put energy into the Transducer thinking it was a world peace sigil really understood the concept of giving energy to something that specifically requires energy considered "negative"?

There seem to have a great deal of good intentions during the startup of this Transducer. Has it lived up to expectations?
 
 
Papess
19:20 / 18.11.02
You raise some good questions, not exactly celebratory, but nonetheless questions that are deserving of answers, albeit my own opinion is not the last word on Peace Mango.

The futility of trying to create “world peace”, is duly noted. There are various opinions on what is good and what is evil, but I will leave this alone for the moment.

When we first started to develop the sigil (and at first, this was just a sigil), I thought about some of your questions myself, as I am sure others did. There used to be another thread that outlined some of the thinking regarding this line of questioning. I guess, for myself, I was interpreting the intent of this sigil, as similar to the enormous task that Avalokiteshvra or Chenrezig in Tibetan had attempted to accomplish, and He did. This is an seemingly impossible task, however. Chenrezig emptied Samsara a thousand million times and each time, it was full again within an instant. His endeavour to rid the worlds of suffering was always met with futility. He cried a tear, and from that tear was born the embodiment of compassion, Tara. Using this as an allegory for the Mango, we could use the concept of Samsara as synonymous with suffering as it is considered in Buddhist philosophy and even quite possibly evil. Perhaps, that is confusing the target intention of Mango, but if we do some fine-tuning, (As is needed sometimes in creating servitors, especially of this magnitude.) I am sure it can be adapted.

The second part of the allegory is the concept of Tara. She is compassion, and ultimately this is what this working is – an exercise in compassion. There are a few reasons to do this, even if it appears futile. One reason is – it is just plain old good karma. Another reason is what else is there to do? Not necessarily the Mango working, but any working that is intended as a tool for peace. I know of several workings around the world at that time and I think of Peace Mango as Barbelith’s contribution to the cause. This is not an unsupported endeavour.

I do take note of the use of the word “evil” as being ambiguous and possibly lacking direction for the general application of Transducer, however, as a means of targeting specific situations it seems that ze has been responsive and effective. (There still needs to be some experimenting to do, perhaps, and I think it would be really cool if we did test our work out. Why not? Of course, it is hard to gauge “world peace”, but at least we will know if it is capable of carrying out specific tasks we set for it, for certain.)

As far as your question of “evil” or “negativity” being it’s food source, I can only offer that at the point where Transducer is creating the negativity, let it eat itself and transform itself into the suitable positive output it is accustomed to - Sacrifice and Transformation.

Transformation seems to be the nature of Transducer, anyway. I get the sense from hir that when ze is not active, ze is Peace Mango. When ze is active, ze is Transducer. Maybe a little Transformers leaked into the formula. Heh.

I am sure I have not answered all your questions Badbh, but hope that is satisfactory at the moment. I am glad these issues are being raised. I feel helpless to create these changes without the support and assistance of other ‘lithers, especially those that helped to launch it initially. If you have any suggestions regarding a possible statement of intent or experiment for Mango then please, do post them. I am, without a doubt, open to improvement on a good idea.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:45 / 18.11.02
I was involved with this last year. The initial concept of a transducer, a component that takes one form of energy and converts it into another, seemed like the most appropriate concept. Looking at the way things are in the world now, it's either failed or not worked yet.
 
 
FinderWolf
21:05 / 18.11.02
I wouldn't say the world's current landscape is proof positive that the Mango hasn't worked at all, Mordant. These are especially violent times -- who knows what the Mango has done to make things easier and more peaceful? I have faith that the Mango is having some effect, and a positive effect towards the goals for which it was created. There have been a number of conflicts averted since then (remember last year when it looked like India and Pakistan were ready to go to war with each other? and how about North Korea slowly warming up to South Korea, at least to have talks? plus many terrorist plots broken up before they were executed).

I was just thinking of the Peace Mango last night, funnily enough, when I glanced at an Orange Mango beverage at my local deli (a drink which I've become quite fond of since the Mango's launch last year!). I was thinking, "Hm, haven't seen anything about the Peace Mango on Barbelith in a while." May Tricks comes through with the synchronicity!

I've also been thinking about the full moon coming up....and the power that it will have.

Also, think of this: maybe war with Iraq really can be averted? If things go well with the inspections, maybe that area of the world can be a little quieter (namely, Iraq)....and sanctions lifted?

Anything is possible. And I don't think the Peace Mango "thrives" on negative energy in any kind of spooky, ominous way. I think it converts and heals and brings peace - positive energy converting negative energy into something more useful and beneficial. Simple as that. Great changes have occured in this universe as a result of that simple process.
 
 
Papess
12:02 / 19.11.02
Mordant, if we conclude that Peace Mango failed, we would have to also conclude that ALL the peace workings, rituals, prayers and mass at that time have failed too. Wouldn't we(?)

Have we spent enough time empowering this servitor, giving Transducer tasks and making mango or fruit offerings? These are ways to give Transducer the kind of energy ze needs to fulfill tasks and learn to be discriminating. So, we cannot complain or denounce if we have not done the work or have not put in any further effort. Transducer is in infancy, and from what I understand about infants, they need some care and nuturing or they die.

The truth is, everytime Transducer has been called to a particular or specific situation, ze seems to rise to the challenge quite well. Ze has even shown some marked improvement, if I use the Sniper situation as an example. It was quick and painless from the time Mango was employed to the arrest of Muhammad and Malvo. There have been other noted synchronicities by other "lither's too.

I really think Transducer has to be focused, at this time, on particular situations. Maybe there is just too much suffering/evil/negativity going on in this world for Transducer to be fully effective in hir infancy. As ze learns from specific tasks, ze will develop accuracy and efficiency, making hir capable of handling larger and larger tasks.
 
 
Badbh Catha
14:12 / 19.11.02
I appreciate the time people took in answering and responding to my questions.

As far as your question of “evil” or “negativity” being it’s food source, I can only offer that at the point where Transducer is creating the negativity, let it eat itself and transform itself into the suitable positive output it is accustomed to - Sacrifice and Transformation. – May Tricks

Hmmm...that doesn't really answer the question as to whether or not this sigil/servitor actively feeds on emnity, disagreements or warlike acts, or if it is capable of cultivating such experiences in its immediate environment so as to keep itself fed.

Have we spent enough time empowering this servitor, giving Transducer tasks and making mango or fruit offerings? These are ways to give Transducer the kind of energy ze needs to fulfill tasks and learn to be discriminating. So, we cannot complain or denounce if we have not done the work or have not put in any further effort. - May Tricks

This may partially be attributed to the fact that there seems to still be confusion as to whether or not this is a sigil or a servitor. Sigils are*meant* to be forgotten about, which may be why others have not "done the work" or "put in any further effort". Servitors, though, are a different concept and need quite a bit more attention, or they start doing their own thing.

I'm confused as to the "specific situations" you refer to, May. When exactly have you sent the Transducer off to deal with "negativity", and what situations did this entail? What feedback did you get from the Transducer – indeed, what sort of feedback is this sigil/servitor accustomed to giving? How will any Barbelith poster, including yourself, know that it's doing what it's supposed to be doing? You mention other posters have "noted synchronicities"; it would be great if some of them would post their feedback here, so as to get a more well-rounded view of this thing.

I have faith that the Mango is having some effect...–Hunterwolf

But sigils and servitors don't rely on faith – they rely on results. Have you worked actively with this sigil/servitor, Hunterwolf? What did you ask it to do? Did it do it? How did you know? Did you keep a log or journal of your interactions with it?

I'm asking these questions because I'm interested in servitors; I'm curious if this one works, and if not, why not.
 
 
Papess
16:03 / 19.11.02
Badbh, Do you have any suggestions as to how we could test out Transducer? As I said, ze is in infancy, or maybe early childhood and may need some development. I am quite open to this, but instead of firing questions, maybe we need to work on solutions to your valid inquiries.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
02:37 / 20.11.02
Holy crap.

How could a nice celebratory thread turn into sigil bashing?

There have been a number of conflicts averted since then (remember last year when it looked like India and Pakistan were ready to go to war with each other?

A fine point.I was going to mention it but I'm glad someone else did. Has there been any more imploding landmarks? Anthrax? How about North Korea possessing NUKES and throwing a HUUUUUGE monkey wrench into the US's plans for invasion of Iraq...

Christ people, it's only MAGICK! The participants in this project made a genuine effort to intervene in what could have been one of the world's darkest moment, and should at least be shown respect for what they tried to accomplish, not be ridiculed for it...nobody promised Utopia.

If the sigil charging is such a big deal, go back to wanking to Hustler.

Re:XXX

Magick manifests in the most convenient
 
 
Tamayyurt
04:28 / 20.11.02
I really don't want to get too explicit but I believe the transducer is working for me (personally). So, politics aside, it's brought peace to my life and, coincidentally, on the full moon no less. So I'll be blasting Flame on's mango song and recharging it.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
07:38 / 20.11.02
How could a nice celebratory thread turn into sigil bashing?

I don't think this is 'sigil bashing' in so much as it is a critical perspective, which is surely a useful thing to bring to your practice?
 
 
Naked Flame
08:29 / 20.11.02
Hey folks, there's a whole huge threadful of the answers to your questions. Go check the archive. And if you still have questions, you can interface directly with the Transducer- that's what the song is for. Much better than trying to pick apart someone else's practice over a plain-text interface.
 
 
Seth
09:31 / 20.11.02
Let's grow up here. Gypsy Lantern is quite right - there is room for a critique on the matter.

Who knows? Maybe the Mango realised that its mission involved wiping out its food source, and decided to keep things in a state of balance.
 
 
Papess
10:59 / 20.11.02
Exp: Sometimes it is the manner in which things are done. There has not been an offer from inquisitors and complaintants of any ideas for improvement! I think that is what really irks me. Just to fire out, post after post, of questions and complaints, never once offering supportive solutions or alternatives...This is NOT part of constructive debate.

I think this method of response is rather destructive, only serving to "magically" create tension and fustration, derailing the efforts of others. I see this type of behaviour in the Headshop a whole lot, really a tired, old method of causing havoc. Anyone can ask a bunch of questions, even insightful ones, children do it all the time. Coming up with reasonable solutions is alot harder but it displays conscientiousness.

I think Flame is right, the evidence is all available to those who care to read it. I am not about to rifle through a year's worth of threads myself for the possibility of providing proof. If more proof than what is availble is needed, we can do experiments...not a problem! I did a meditation last night with Mango, well it ended up in contemplation, but it did make me aware of the initial intent used to create Peace Mango and the servitor of Transducer. There were mixed emotions at the time of benevolence and revenge. Servitors often need fine-tuning to meet the changing needs of a particular cause.

I have put forth suggestions for adjustments, it would be helpful to concentrate on those or any other suitable solutions. It is not the questions and re-assessment that bother me so much, as the lack of constructive input. That would be much more helpful.

One more thing, this was created by a number of us here, not just myself. In order to create a change I think it is necessary for there to be at least 2 original creators to re-programme Transducer, to help create some kind of concensus for that change. Also, any changes to be made should be posted here and be allowed input from the rest of the Magick.

So, constructive solutions anyone?
 
 
Badbh Catha
12:53 / 20.11.02
I'm really suprised by the defensive attitudes – My questions were not at all intended to be critical, or "complaining". Surely you're comfortable enough in your practices to handle some inquiry?

And it's rather strange to expect me to come up with solutions to this situation – Just because I show interest in the Transducer doesn't mean I know how to fix it. That should be the concern of the people who created it.

I'm not interested in petty ego battles, or being tarred as "destructive" by people I've never met, so I'll just get my coat. Good luck with your sigil, servitor, or whatever it is.
 
 
Vadrice
13:51 / 20.11.02
Trust me. the transducer is working fine.

There should have been ground troops and open combat in Iraq by now, there isn't.

The sniper should have been able to continue shooting people for a good year.
Again, nada.

My girlfriend and I should have broken up by now.

We're nice and smooth.


It can't handle all the energy it's being fed, but it's transducing away, believe me.

Too much war. Maybe the transducer could learn how to better function by letting it talk to I.M.P.


And yes, I'm baking a mango cake.
 
 
Papess
14:17 / 20.11.02
Not exactly the constructive imput I was looking for.

Badbh Catha, you seem to be insightful as the inquiries you make are valid enough. You do not have to know exactly how to fix it, that is why we have each other. Your suggestions about possible recourses would be appreciated and I am sure that some of the original launchers of the sigil would take any ideas and make it workable as a group.

I think alot of people worked hard on this project and if you check the links provided thoroughly, you will appreciate this. Maybe that is the sensitivity you are picking up on. Just dissecting and analyzing is not enough when dealing with multi-faceted magick. There will always be questions in magick, for it is about the Great Mysteries.
 
 
Papess
14:31 / 20.11.02
Thanks Vadrice. SInce you have connected so well with the Transducer, maybe you have some ideas to increase ze's capacities? Any difficulties or fallout you may have noticed?

ONe thing I think would help, is to do as was suggested way back when, from I-do-not-remember-whom, and take current acts of violence/war/dispute and focus Transducer on these situations. We can keep notes on how the situation changes, or doesn't. It may help to define alot for us. (Hmmm, I think Imp may have suggested this)
 
 
Vadrice
14:45 / 20.11.02
well, I'll give what insight I can, seeing as I was sort of spacing out during it's creation...

um... Fallout.
If our world made sense, the transducer would be causing major ripples in basicly EVERYTHING, on account of the fact that it thrws a balance in a (presently) working system off.
Systems fight to protect their internal balances, so there would doubtless be lots and lots of random acts of violence springing up, or perhaps counter transducers.

HOWEVER, this isn't the case at all, in that there is an overabundance of kinetic energy in our world, which means war. Thus the transducer is just crankin away, and is actually contributing toward balance by doing so.

In fact, it could use help. All that's missing from it is sheer raw capacity at this point, though. From a design standpoint it apparantly is working just fine.

Least that's what me eyes and me head tell me.
 
 
mixmage
14:50 / 20.11.02
My first encounter with Peace Mango was during the siege at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. This was my primary focus at the time of launch. Total Fatalities? - much less than the Russian Theatre Fiasco.

13 Palestinians considered by the Israeli authorities as being most dangerous were to be taken into exile, another group of 26 medium-risk Palestinians were to go to Gaza to be imprisoned by the Palestine Authority

13?... 26?... synchronicity?

... downloading schematics for maitreya type bodhisattva cannon.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:26 / 20.11.02
I'm not sure where the bad vibe here is coming from. I don't see anything accusitive or inquisitorial in Badbh Catha's questions. I think they sprang from genuine curiosity.

And to be fair, our mission parameter on this has always been a bit loose. The Tranceducer has been slightly different things to different people. Also, there does seem to be some confusion around as to whether it's a sigil or a servitor. I'd call the Tranceducer a servitor; the Peace Mango was the nickname applied to the sigil used to launch and to "feed" the servitor (coz it looks a bit like some fruit).
 
 
Papess
17:54 / 20.11.02
Also, there does seem to be some confusion around as to whether it's a sigil or a servitor. I'd call the Tranceducer a servitor; the Peace Mango was the nickname applied to the sigil used to launch and to "feed" the servitor (coz it looks a bit like some fruit).

Yep, that would be it!
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
21:20 / 20.11.02
Um.

I didn't mean to induce bad vibes or to reject constructive criticism. If my post came across as being harsh, I apologize, that was not my intention.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:57 / 21.11.02
I don't want to get too drawn into the already tense vibe in this thread, but I've got a few thoughts on the subject that I'd quite like to bring up.

I guess I have certain .. difficulties with acts of magick centred around such a broad remit as world peace or transforming negativity into positivity. Whilst nobody can fault the intentions of the people who take part in this kind of grand gesture magick, it can be really difficult to assess the relative performance of the work you've set in motion. I don't dispute the effectiveness of the Peace Mango - but I do think it's difficult to get a proper measure on it's functioning.

For example, anyone can look at the vastly complex global situation and find an abundance of examples that 'prove' the project has been a failure. Similarly, anyone can look at the situation and find numerous instances that 'prove' that the project has been a success. But if you're trying to honestly assess the performance of your sorcery, identify problem areas, and correct them (which I think is as important to magickal practice as it is to any other area of human acticity) I don't think large scale workings of this type give you much to go on. Statements such as: "imagine what things might be like if we hadn't done the ritual" are as speculative and intangible as claiming the working has failed because you haven't created Utopia overnight.

This is the main reason why I tend to shy away from this kind of project and personally prefer to focus my efforts more on the microscosmic elements of a situation that build up to the large scale picture. I just think that it's a far more tangible expenditure of energy to concentrate on definitively changing the smaller and more finite aspects of a situation - in the hope that a butterfly effect will take place and your influence on the small things will cascade itself through the system and effect the macroscosm.

You may disagree with this approach, but it does give you the advantage of being able to monitor a workings performance up close. The sorceror's ego is put on the line through this method, as it will quickly become apparent whether or not a project is working properly if you are targetting a specific person or situation. However, I think that it's through this kind of examination that we learn a bit more about the dynamics of a working, spot any inherent problems, and find ways of sorting them out.

Just to bring these rambling thoughts back to the situation at hand, it may be worth applying the Peace Mango 'technology' to a number of small-scale situations in order to learn more about it's current functioning. By studying the way in which it influences a number of targetted situations, you could conceivably learn more about its general influence at a larger scale.

As an example of how this might work: select a specific person or situation which you would like to influence using the Mango. This could be a political figure (for test purposes, preferably someone with influence but not a major player or anyone too 'iconic') or even a specific conference or meeting. Convert the targets name into a sigil and get a photo of them to act as a sympathetic link. Place a Mango on top of these items to act as focus for the Peace Mango tech. Switch on the transducer using whatever method you prefer. Repeat the experiment targetting a number of different situations at a number of different levels, eg.. world affairs, local Government, maybe even something like office politics. At the very least, this kind of interaction with the Mango tech will give a closer understanding of its functioning and possibly lead to a more personal relationship with the Mango AI itself.

Just throwing stuff out for debate. Feel free to disagree, agree, take me to task, etc..
 
 
illmatic
14:15 / 21.11.02
I’ve read this thread with a lot of interest and it’s brought up quite a few interesting ideas that I thought I’d throw into the mix. Broadly, I agree with GL’s comments above about magickal projects which aim for very broad effects being very hard to prove or otherwise. This is probably why I shy away from this sort of thing. Please note that this isn’t meant to disparage anyone else’s efforts, it’s just a matter of personal taste, my critical nature coming out – which incidentally relates to the lack of success with practical magick over the years.

However, all this got me thinking about the purposes and possible effects of works of this nature. There certainly is a noticeable tradition of workings to affect things on a global level in all kinds of magickal and religious groupings. I was wondering what might be the purpose and aims behind this? Projects like this also seem to involve as many people as possible. It seems to me that things like function to create a kind of collective ethos, and the force of numbers involved helps transmits this through the public sphere. I was very interested in seeing May mention Tibetan Buddhism above. Mahayana Buddhism is, in a sense, trying to transmit a well-developed set of values, and to an extent this is working, insofar as it’s began to nibble away at the edge of Western consciousness, as if the whole of Tibetan Buddhism is a gigantic slow-working egregore.

Another project that struck me as similar was the Maat Magick of Nema. Nema is an ex-member of the Typhonian OTO who received an text called Liber Pennae Penumbra in the early 70’s which is a kind of feminised complement to the force and fire of Crowley’s Book of the Law. In accounts of her subsequent visions she details contact with an entity that she calls N’aton, which is a global consciousness that emerges at some stage in our future and incorporates the consciousness of the every individual. Individuality still exists within this but with a vastly increased awareness of others. She states that she can see this “fleshing up” in the spread of Net and information culture. Now, I’m not asking people to literally believe in this is going to happen, but rather I recognise that Nema is making a choice about the kind of future she wants, building a magickal worldview around this, and trying to transmit it to others.

I don’t know how this relates to Peace Mango – I seem to have wandered off on even more a bizarre tangent than usual – but perhaps I’d see things as rather than trying to affect specific situations, projects like this could be part of a grand vision, that defines the future in a way we want. Perhaps this is where the magickal turns into the religious?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:00 / 21.11.02
briefly, as I'm in the middle of becoming increasingly drunk at a works leaving do - this reminds me of Rupert Sheldrakes 100 monkey theory thing, which I'm not totally convinced by but is an interesting idea. Will attempt to elaborate on this later.
 
 
Seth
16:44 / 21.11.02
Gypsy Lantern and Mr Illmatic: There's some superb stuff in your posts. You've really got me thinking.

First of all, I think we need to consolidate the material we have on the Transducer and its programming. This would involve trawling through the threads involved in its creation and cutting and pasting various snippets into this thread. There's no reason why we should have to spend ages searching for information on a project that's so close to our hearts. I'd like one or more of the people involved to do this, as they'll have the most awareness of what to choose, which posts are signal and which are noise.

Second, we evaluate the material once everyone is happy that it's been thoroughly and accurately collated. We can add anything that we believe is vital about the servitors makeup at this stage, stuff that may not have been present in the original threads. Then we can make specific suggestions based on fine tuning the project and ways in which we can test fire it in specific situations. After this we can evaluate again and look to where we want to take it in future.

One of my thoughts to begin with - I kinda get the impression (with hindsight) that we can make the Transducer work as one element of a more complex circuit. My memory's probably playing tricks on me, but I seen to recall that one or more workings involved it hooked up to the amplifier servitor. Perhaps we could also create an Educator servitor, to spread unbiased information about other perspectives, whether they apply to the personal or the geo-political; an Activist servitor, designed to inspire means of the viral spread of peacenik concepts and ideals; maybe even a Evaluator servitor, capable of needs analyses on global situations, acting as a control element so that the entire set up is capable of working on its own when we're not using it to do specific workings.

Dunno how much of that is present in the Mango's original programming, but that's the kind of thing we'll find out after all the material is collected. Anyone up for the task?
 
 
Papess
18:36 / 21.11.02
GL: I was flipping through the papers trying to find a suitable target for Transducer as a mission in the experiment. What do you think about the Bahamian-flagged Prestige oil spill? I am not sure how to apply Transducer to this though. Perhaps, to ensure it does not break, or if it does, ensure swift and safe clean-up wit as little damage (at least less than the Valdez spill) to the environment.

Illmatic: It is very true, alot of different traditions do, of course, work on a global level. I know there are groups of people constantly doing magickal peace work. This is not tested out regularly either. The reasons for these other groups to do this work is usually based in religious dogma, so I can see where you were going with that line of intent. Usually, these groups do peace work out of the simple fact that it is a positive and noble endeavour, done without the expectation of results. Ultimately, none can dictate karma, but it is better to be generating a positive energy and contribute that to the world....no matter how futile. This is what I have learned from Buddhism anyway.

exp: I love your ideas. I will do some cutting and pasting myself and anyone else's help would be appreciated. I do spend too much time typing up posts...heehee
Wondering though, should we develop the Transducer's image, or is it too soon? Experiments first?

I am so happy to see this kind of constructive imput.
 
 
Vadrice
18:39 / 21.11.02
well, It's me madre's birthday today, so I'm not up at all on your post especially, Illmatic. I'm sure I'll think about it hard enough to say something intelligent when I'm sober.

Gypsy, you remind me of what is necessary in exigesis like this. Yum.
Necessary, but somewhat inpalatable to my champagne and chambourg infused mindset.
Right now, being fabulous and irrational, all I have to say is that doing the great good is not a rational thing. It's counter intuitive, it makes no sense in context of a greater zen sense of balance, it has no place in the managment of large complex systems, and thus I find it to be brilliant.
The mango is an irrational answer to an irrational problem. Or perhaps a problem that arises with an overabundance of slightly emotion infused rationality. Or both.
To say that such big generalized workings aren't quantifyable or deconstructable by us and our rationalizations is very true, and very important to understand... however, it's also the reason that we're working them, trying to sleptegariously understand them and the like.

Why? Because they're bigger than us, they're more than the sum of their parts.
They're outragious.

I love them.

So I'll probably yell at myself later when I'm being rational and sober, but I think arguing about the peace mango and trying to figure out it's flaws is like trying to find the flaws in peace.
Sure it's difficult. Sure it's possible- just ask Nietzche.
But is it constructive?

Yes.
Unfortunatly, is is only so from a rational standpoint, which this working/situation/panacea is not based from.

It's based from love, and it's based from Barbelith.

Eat that, president from Texas.
 
 
Seth
18:54 / 21.11.02
500 enthusiasm points to Vadrice.

Is there any way that we can focus and channel the efforts of well-intentioned (but sometimes idealogically unsound) prayers through the Mango or whatever the proposed set-up will be? That's a massive source of potential energy that deserves tapping. I can only speak for Christian based initiatives, but there are churches round the world that pray 24 hours a day all year round on a massive spread of issues, including those that the Transducer was created to effect. I'm sure other faiths/religions/movements have their own similar initiatives.
 
 
Papess
19:08 / 21.11.02
Thanks Vadrice for saying drunk, what I couldn't manage sober.

Peace doesn't need a reason, nor does praying/intending for it. IMO

But hey! If y'all want to experiment and prove the worth of such endeavours, please!...fill yr boots!

It is all only about love.....yeesh, did I just type out that fluff?
 
 
Seth
19:22 / 21.11.02
Love... and hard, sweaty toil. Same thing, really. Takes effort to make this kinda stuff manifest.
 
 
Papess
11:44 / 22.11.02
OKay, here are some links to threads that can be picked through.

This is the first thread still alive. (There was a thread that came before this one. I think it was called Armeggeddon Angst or something...and I just woke up, easy on my spelling)

This is the second thread.

Click here for Mango Music from Naked Flame.

Here is a public service announcement for Mango

This is a 9/11 working with Mango

Here is a thread about a similar type of working with all the luverly celeb support.

So people can take a gander through this and we can piece peace together..peace by piece. (Hey stop groaning, I haven't had my tea yet!)



From Exp:
I've been thinking about this a bit recently. Hope no one minds the novice putting in a few words of potential caution.

From what little I know about these matters, it seems likely (although not definite - I reiterate, take this as the post of a know-nothing) that there are a few spiritual nasties who are profiting from recent world events (if not potentialy directly involved in some way). By launching the Transducer we may risk drawing their attention, as its purpose may be in direct conflict with theirs. This may not only entail a risk to the servitor, but also to those involved in charging.

I'm just wanting to make sure all this is safe for everyone concerned. Have precautions been taken in its programming? Do we want to ensure that only those consenting in its charging have access to the sigil? Is it worth an experienced person sounding out the climat into which we're releasing the servitor? Is it worth specifying a small region outside of the main conflict for the servitor to build strength, so we can ease it into the larger picture in stages?

I still love this idea, and I think it has definite potential. I just want a bit more info before signing on wholeheartedly. Although it's a peaceful, well intentioned project it is definitely an act of aggression against beings that may have other motivations.



Velevt's Response:
As regards alerting the nasties, I've been doing a little stuff related to this situation myself, and I've found it best to assume that they know what I'm doing anyway - and to deploy my full arsenal of protective countermeasures in response. So basically, yes, we should go ahead with the Mango, but just make sure we all have our banishings done beforehand, and call in any favours we're owed from the egregores...

Flame's response:
I'd second what velvetvandal said. When I went to NYC in late September, I had several encounters with a seriously nasty piece of ethereal yuk, which tried to stomp my brain after I returned home. Very much not good. Nosebleed material. I beat it though- you've just gotta make like a mango and eat the demons and transform them in the light of your consciousness.

IMHO, backlash is pretty much inevitable when you deal with world events. If you're prepared to stand up for what you believe in you're almost certain to come up against someone or something that opposes your cause, magic or no magic. If I've been following this right, the servitor is designed to absorb darkness and hate and transform it into love and light. So you got that on your side. You also have all your regular allies, your inner strength, and a whole bunch of fellow fingerwigglers on this board to help.

As for the servitor being co-opted by the Forces of Nastiness... that's equally true of anything one might use in seeking peace. Witness the way in which Sunday's peace demo in London brought the right-wingers and hawks out of the woodwork and onto the letters pages of the newspapers.


Irene's response:
I agree that expressionless makes valid points. But I also think that the keynote here is PEACE. (not MANGO even though I asked the bartender last night, if I came over with a can of Mango nectar on the 30th, would she make me a cocktail?). This is a pacifist working and it's meant to do its job through pacifist means. We are using water (um, nectar??) to fight fire, not fire with fire.

That at least is my understanding.


A response from myself:
Expressionles: I have worked on this large a scale before using eastern methods. One practise I would like to share is very simple but very similar to the nature of Transducer. It is a breathing exercise where you breathe in evil and negativity as black smoke and/or pus. On the exhale, breathe out white light. This exercise is"Sending and Taking". The Transducer is like a perpetual sender and taker.


Well, that should do for starters. I stopped mid-way, second page of the first thread, for everyone's reference.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:52 / 22.11.02
don't have time to post at length today, so will have to come back to this next week. I appreciate Vadrice's comments, but I'm not convinced by the argument that interacting with, studying and learning from a working is a rational approach and therefore innapropriate because the working is not rooted in a rational standpoint. I would say my comments above are based more on an appreciation of a working as a living process that needs to be nurtured and interacted with in order to get the best results. It's no more 'rational' than, say, bringing up a child or bringing any other creative endeavour to fruition. It takes inspiration and enthusiasm - but it also takes hard work and willingness to adapt when things don't pan out along a pre-determined route.
 
  

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