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New X-Men #137

 
  

Page: 123(4)5

 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:46 / 23.02.03
And when the Cuckoo's tell Quentin it's about 'in' versus 'out'... Based on what Jean said in 126 I think that qualifies Quentin to be a Mummundrai [ sp? ], though exactly what of I'm not sure. Xavier's philosophy? The school?
 
 
Quireboy
17:53 / 23.02.03
Yes, good comparison - the Cuckoos effectively took on Jean's role in this issue.
 
 
Quireboy
12:57 / 24.02.03
A further similarity between Extinction and Riot is that both Cassandra and Quentin turn the students against the staff using their telepathy. And on both occasions that telepathic hold is broken by the Cuckoos.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:35 / 24.02.03
Cassandra turned the students against the X-Men in Imperial too.
 
 
Quimper
14:13 / 24.02.03
Having re-read NXM134, Persephone was right about the attack on Jumbo. And I agree about the Buffy comparison and Beast being the Giles of the Institute.

Now to move on and develop some of the themes raised in this thread...

"Firstly, STRUCTURE:

1. Male authority is thrown into chaos by women."

Let's not forget that it was Emma and Martha who toppled the Third Species regime.

"2. The similarities between each arc."

Following the theme of opposites, I think it's interesting that Quentin has lost his love, Sophie, just as Magneto lost Magda. However, while Magneto shared a beautiful relationship with Magda, Quentin's love was unrequited. Instead of aggressors killing Sophie, as they did Magda, it was Quentin and Sophie's actions that led to her death. Will Quentin then follow the opposite path as Magneto and become a chief spokesperson for Xavier Corp.?

"Thirdly, XAVIER'S DREAM - philosophy or brand:

In NXM, the X-Men are obsessed by their media profile - Jean holding a press conference, she and Xavier giving lectures and doing promotional tours around the world; Hank and Charles on the cover of magazines. They also have new uniforms and have opened franchises around the world."

And that is why this is huge. The X-Men are trying to further a cause, gain public opinion in their favor. That is the point to everything. Other writers have tried to do the "X-Men look bad on camera" thing. It happens and then there are no consequences. But there will be here. The image of Herman as the suicide bomber is probably the WORST image humans can see in today's world. No amount of spin can save the team. I hope that Xavier donning Cerebra in #138 is his attempt to rewrite history and skew the mediasphere to spread the X-Men as heroes meme. This, more than anything in the run thus far, will be the ultimate abuse of telepathy. I don't think something like that will sit well with Jean.

Remember, Quentin has succeeded in making Xavier question the assumptions his dream is based on. Xavier will have to think this new world order out more because his faith in mutantkind has just been shat on. Xavier will delve further into his "ends-justify-means" mentality. Without Jean there, and I'm sure Emma will have no problems with it, Xavier is free to "misdirect" the world with the "illusion" that Open Day was a success.

Xavier is becoming more and more like the antagonists of the run: he is eradicating binary thought and becoming more like Cassandra, he has the virtual presence of John Subliime through his brand, the X-Corporation is viral like Weapon XII, and now, he may practice the misdirection and illusion of Fantomex.

"To me, Xavier's dream is less of a philosophy and more of a brand - his utopian vision of mutants and humans living in harmony as superficial as as Benneton or Diesel advert; it's a lifestyle aspiration."

Which is why Xavier will pull a telepathic "recall" of his product.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:32 / 24.02.03
Quentin SAYS he's made Xavier question his assumptions. Seeing as Quentin has no cogent philosophy beyond fucking shit up and Xavier has been in this game for some 15-20 years I think we can safely chalk this up and Quentin's spunky enthusiasm getting carried away.

Or to put it another way; Has Quentin's little strop had any real effect beyond some easily fixed doors and accidentally apparently killing Dummy and a Cuckoo?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
16:58 / 24.02.03
Quireboy: Wow. You are God's own private warrior.

The Male/Female slant is particularly interesting to this long time Cerebus reader. Long before he fell off the deep end, one could very easily see through the mysoginistic facade and find the very real and vivid exploration of Emotion v. Reason within (Sim's unfortunate stapling of one exclusively to Male and the other to Female betrays a complete lack of, dare I say it, rational and reasonable consideration).

Think about NXM in this context, especially that climactic tape covered confrontation. Emotion has driven Quire to create a cacaphony of emotion: Angry? Riot. Emotion directly to Action. No thought/reason involved. And who controls thought? The telepath.

Pretty much all of Cassandra's attacks were emotion based: fear, anger, etc, exacerbated until they clouded out all thought.

Now the real question: Is Xavier's Dream reasonable? Rational? Or just something he "wants"?
 
 
Quimper
17:42 / 24.02.03
"Quentin SAYS he's made Xavier question his assumptions. Seeing as Quentin has no cogent philosophy beyond fucking shit up and Xavier has been in this game for some 15-20 years I think we can safely chalk this up and Quentin's spunky enthusiasm getting carried away."

One can argue that he KNOWS he did because he was inside Xavier's mind. And, one can argue that Xavier has no cogent philosophy either. Think back to what Lilandra says about Xavier thinking everything can be made better with hopes and words. Every comment about Quentin having a "half-baked manifesto" and "not thinking things through" can be applied to Chuck.

"Or to put it another way; Has Quentin's little strop had any real effect beyond some easily fixed doors and accidentally apparently killing Dummy and a Cuckoo? "

Yes. Quentin's actions have single-handedly hit the X-Men and the Dream in the one place it matters most right now...on camera. Glob Herman as a suicide bomber chasing a bus full of humans is worse than anything Sinister or Apocalypse may have done. The X-Men's existence in the mediasphere is far more important than their actual existence. Xavier said to Xorn that people mistake ideas for things. The Institute as an idea was vital. It was the brick and mortar version of the idea that Xavier's Dream is possible. That idea was just mutated into something horrible, especially when broadcast all over the world.
 
 
Aertho
17:43 / 24.02.03
And who controls thought? The telepath.

Or just something he "wants"?


This is what I started a bit about over at the mindreading discussion. While I don't think his dream is altogether a bad one... it's just completely irrational. Charles has been proven time and again a bit foolish in assuming that mutation fear is this year's social prejudice.

But that's just it: He's a telepath who feels human fear. It's what he does. It's his power over others, and he wants to keep it. So if he wraps it up in civil rights. And now it's getting to fever pitch, where he's tripping all over what it means to be human and human rights in order to "express himself" as a mutant. Of course Xavier is doing what he wants, but he's convinced he's doing it for other people.
 
 
Quireboy
19:32 / 24.02.03
Cheesed I've started discussing NXM137 on the Mindreading thread, so how about we continue this theme over there? Quimper has also made some interesting points about memetics, which I hope he'll pursue over there.

One thing, which is slightly off topic, that I wanted to look at was the imagery of birth trauma in NXM. I'm thinking here of the contrast between Cassandra's birth - presumably a miscarriage - in the Psychic Rescue issue and Xavier's rebirth at the end of Imperial, where he emerges from Cerebra as if from the the womb (after being 'delivered' by Phoenix). The latter in particular, as I've already said, also inverted Greek myth - the birth of Athene who sprang forth from the head of Zeus after he swallowed her mother.

The other question I'd like to pose is how do you think Emma will react if the Cuckoos' lose their telepathy? It will be interesting to see how the girls react but can they count on Emma's continued support when they're no longer the "creme-de-la-creme" of her telepathy class? Someone on the latest CrackedComics Q&A session with Morrison said they saw the Cuckoos facing a similar fate to the children in the book Flowers in the Attic - which according to Amazon.com concerns four beautiful blonde children abandoned by their mother in an attic.

Will Sophie's death force Emma to confront the deaths of her other former pupils - or will she slip into diamond form to avoid dealing with such upsetting memories and emotions?
 
 
A
06:55 / 25.02.03
I only just picked up a copy yesterday, so apologies for coming to this discussion a little late in the game.

Anyway, something occured to me that I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned yet. Since their beginning, mutants in X-Men comics have often been seen to represent teenagers. Humans hatred, fear and misunderstanding of mutants can be seen as an exaggerated representation of the way adolescents are often treated by adult society. I think that Morrison has been conscious of this interpretation throughout his run on NewXMen.

However, in the Riot arc, he's taken it a step further. Just as teenagers eventually grow up to be adults and have to deal with their own children becoming teenagers, the X-Men are now the authority figures who have to deal with the next generation of mutants. Used to their status as outsiders, it doesn't seem to occur to them that they are now the targets of natural teenage rebellion. I think that the Omega Gang should be seen not as a representation of political activists, but of rebellious adolescents, kicking against whatever authority there is. This is why Quire's rebellion doesn't seem to have a clear goal in mind (other than the rather broad "destroy all humans")- he's rebelling as much for it's own sake as to acieve any particular ends, and he's drunk on his first taste of power and poularity.

The problem with Xavier's "dream" is not so much that it is naive and unworkable, but that it is seen as old-fashioned and outdated by some of the new generation of mutants (even if they aren't thinking things through very well). In many ways, the Omega Gang are to Xavier as punks were to hippies.

What's interesting is that Quire was defeated not by the authority he rebelled against, but by his own generation, the very ones he was trying to impress.

I may right more a little later, but my brain seems to be shutting down.
 
 
Chubby P
09:30 / 25.02.03
The death was predicted in the prologue to the Riot arc. During that issue there is a conversation between Herman and Quentin when Herman says that he can imagine Slick using his carisma to get it on with all four cuckoos and Emma Frost after the open day. Quentin corrects him and says five cuckoos.

Is this foreshadowing merely a story telling device by Morrison or is it also developing the character of Herman to show that he has a secondary mutation that allows him to see the future?
 
 
Quireboy
10:16 / 25.02.03
Surely it's just foreshadowing - as was the conversation between the Cuckoos and Emma in Imperial where they revealed that without Esme they were just four smart blondes - i.e. 5 minus 1 leaves 0 powers.
 
 
Aertho
13:09 / 25.02.03
As much as that may be true, I would really hate for the girls to completely lose their telepathic ability due to the loss of one of thier number. We don't fully understand the relationship between them, how EXACTLY their power works, and why it works the way it does. What if they only believe their telepathy works with all five willing because they afraid to be telepathic alone?

I think a lot has been presumed for next issue. Charles may or may not rewrite the events in the media's head. The girls may or may not have lost their powers. Quentin may or may not be imprisoned. Dummy may or may not even be dead. Just playing the devil here...
 
 
Quireboy
14:28 / 25.02.03
No, it's not definite that the Cuckoos will be depowered for good - but I expect they will be at least temporarily.

The trauma may well 'kick' start their secondary mutation, allowing them to use their psi-powers seperately ... and maybe to develop different types of telepathy as their individual personas emerge. They're going to have to open up to and interact with the other students more rather than standing aloof - so it'll probably tie in with the whole "in vs out" theme.
 
 
Quimper
19:38 / 25.02.03
Something else that fits with the in vs. out theme would be if Sophie's replacement was none other than emma herself. I can see Emma with the four cuckoos always trailing behind her a la Madeline. Because of their heroics and loss, the Cuckoos would truly become "in." They would become X-Men.
 
 
Aertho
19:54 / 25.02.03
Do you really feel Morrison is going to continue the "in vs out" theme with the Cuckoos? They are the epitome of the same-girl cliques which have social "cool" power in any school. It's damn real that they shut Quire down -who was only the school nerd/school punk, and desperately wanted their acceptance. "In vs. Out" is probably the smartest assesment of social dynamic to be conveyed in NXM, much less any comic aimed at the gen public.

I really don't think Morrison's going to turn the four remaining Cuckoos into Emma-lings. They already ARE Emma-lings in all the ways that matter. Psychically attaching them to her discredits both. I know I suggested using QQ as their fifth, but that was for therapeutic reasons.

The only student I want to see as an X-Man protege is Beak. I almost said Angel, but I'll say it again: She's the Jean Grey of the Special Class. Beak is Scott.

More on In/Out: Angel's had her own experience with the "In". Xorn gave her a secret earlier in the storyline, one that invited her into the life and death and love and understanding rules of Xavier's. I expect her to be quieter, a lot more compliant with her teachers, and less sexually aggressive in regards to Beak.
 
 
Quireboy
20:05 / 25.02.03
I have to say Quimper that I really don't see Emma replacing Sophie as the fifth Cuckoo. For a start that would turn her psychic affair with Scott into an underage orgy!

Wonder whether Xavier, Emma or Jean will attempt psychic surgery to restore the Cuckoos' telepathy...
 
 
penitentvandal
09:16 / 26.02.03
I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the most important aspect of this issue:

Wolverine. On the inside pages of the comic. With that beard.

That's what makes me wanna riot...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:38 / 26.02.03
I find it really weird that a lot of you would seriously consider the Cuckoos' "in vs. out" comment as being anything more than them being snotty and snobbish. They were just being mean, I think.
 
 
lentil
14:12 / 26.02.03
you're probably right flux, but even if that's the case I think they were more correct than they may have realised. QQ admits as much in this issue, and his first act of self-conscious rebellion was to remove the status of one of the most 'in' guys in the school.

Also if the riot has been about in/out rather than youth/authority then it answers some of the criticisms made in previous threads about the invalidity of QQ's questioning of Xavier's dream. This never was intended to be the confrontation of his ideas we've all been expecting; when that comes it will be in the form of the loss of the moral centre identified by other posters, and probably all the more powerful for that.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:20 / 26.02.03
Nnn. Don't you think that the ridiculous binary oppositions set up by the Cuckoos and Quentin are both symptomatic of their teenage immaturity? I don't think there's much truth in those oppositions, I think that they're both being reactionary. Charles may be full of himself, but it seems pretty obvious that he (and for the most part, the rest of the X-Men) are aware that it's no longer a simple us vs. them world that they are dealing with. I would think the story has a lot to do with how mature adults who've grown beyond that kind of simplistic way of looking at the world deal with children who've yet to come to that realization.
 
 
lentil
16:13 / 26.02.03
Nice. I think I'll retract that "more correct than they thought" - they obviously thought they were entirely correct.

Other than that I don't think we're differing very much; my second paragraph indicates that part of what satisfied me about this issue was the fact that the "challenge to Xavier's dream" is not going to come from that kind of binary opposition.
 
 
penitentvandal
17:07 / 26.02.03
One thing I think the Cuckoos' comment doesn't do is give any explicit moral dimension to their criticism of QQ. Their implicit values may condemn QQ for being 'out' rather than 'in' (and what a thorny web of connotations those words get when we consider QQ's mascara habit...), but by the same token they could also be judged harshly for excluding Quire and his gang of misfits in the first place, thus causing him to have to rebel to get their attention. Perhaps this theme will come to the fore in coming issues; it would certainly make replacing Sophie with Quentin somewhat interesting.

Xavier, of course, seems to have wanted to include Quentin; but it was Sophie, the cuckoos and the other students that he wanted to impress, not the Prof.

Remember that the cuckoos are a painfully snobby bunch. They smarm up to Emma all the time, they dislike Angel and Beak, etc. They may not be the most enlightened guides to morality in the comic.
 
 
at the scarwash
20:56 / 28.02.03
I think this is my favorite ish of nxm to date. I'm not sure why, except that I think Grant's really at his very best when he puts his big ideas down and focuses on characters and story. This issue also is his best written Emma, who's been one of my favorite characters ever since Generation X made her something other than Chris Claremont's Aryan S&M fantasy. Gen X was goofy in so very many ways, but the first 20 issues were great.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
16:37 / 01.03.03
if anything, this issues highlights Millar's mastery at conducting larger scale action scenes with minimal confusion.

there's an emptiness at the heart of the riot scenes which kinda reminded me of the shit bike attack freakshow fuckup in Speilberg's AI.
 
 
The Falcon
05:52 / 02.03.03
Which is surprising, given that Millar didn't write it.
 
 
glassonion
11:21 / 02.03.03
duncan come on he prolly knew that. but y, what about
ult war 4 you don't think that's good actioneering surely?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
15:23 / 02.03.03
not read the war.

I just do the one millar title.

yeah, cumon Dunc, read my post again ya scabby Don.
 
 
The Falcon
04:29 / 03.03.03
I know - I was just bein a cock. For a laff 'n' that.

The War's okay; the analogy pretty - ooo - subversive. S'reasonable, but it's just a big set-up for Ultimate Hulk, I reckon.

And, 3-0. Again.

I can't stop being an obnoxious shite on this board just now. Dunno why.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
07:21 / 03.03.03
Dinnae fash: It’s called the ‘Volume 2’ syndrome and only lasts until the day of 4D-Motion.

I do believe I may have killed this thread.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
20:41 / 03.03.03
or is it 4-motion?
 
 
The Falcon
22:52 / 03.03.03
Yeah. And let's not forget the 'Tesco bag' debacle, while we're at it.
 
 
perceval
20:28 / 04.03.03

Beyond school cliques, "In vs Out" also reflects QQ vs the Cuckoos in how they want to create change in the world. Quentin looked to Magneto as a role model, while the Cuckoos have Emma. Magneto was a terrorist, trying a full scale takeover by brute force, while the Hellfire Club worked their way inside the established structure, so they could influence it, and eventually (if their plans had worked) dominate it. The Hellfire Club saw that method, making changes from the inside, as a more realistic and workable way of achieving the same goals Magneto had, rather than constantly being hunted and having your astroid bases blown up around you all the time. Significantly, Emma has brought her Hellfire Club mentality with her to the School. She may not be as ruthless or vicious as she used to be, but she still thinks the way she always did.

E
 
 
Aertho
00:47 / 05.03.03
Good point about the Hellfire Club... Technoccult for muties? I use the en-nuh-mee.
 
  

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