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The Coming Apocalypse

 
  

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Frances Farmer
14:15 / 23.07.01
I can see the media for it now : "For a limited time only, Safeway is selling - for the low, low price of $19.95 - charcoal filters and bottled water! Come get your blankets, your fallout shelter supplies, your flashlights! Off the new power grid? GI Joes carries generators, for $285.99 - or four monthly payments of $71.99! That's right folks, you won't find deal likes these anywhere!"


Alright. With tongue planted firmly in cheek, I ask you all ; What's going to happen on December 23rd of 2012? Everything? Nothing?


To give some backround, this is, of course, inspired by theories advanced by .. Well, just about everyone. It's so incredibly common, in fact, that so-called prophets are continually re-tooling their prophecies to save face (quite unsuccessfully, I might add). However, it is truly fascinating that seemingly primitive cultures - a la the inhabitants of Central America (Mayans, Aztecs, et al) have two elements in common. An eerie and unaccounted-for method of accurate time-tracking, and a set of apocalyptic theories with surprising specification as to when it all goes to shit.


Naturally, there is the question 'Has it happened before?' - touted in books like 'Fingerprints of the Gods', which are famous for their lack of scholarly rigour and profusion of wild conjecture. However, some of the points made in these titles do have merit. Namely, those associated with 'The Deluge'.


As I'm sure you're all aware, Genesis of the King James New Testement describes the destruction of most of the earth's inhabitants, due to a righteous bad mood on god's part. There were numerous reasons for his upset, but key, I think, are the following :


a ) A number of god's servents, angels of his 'Heavenly Host', were sent to Earth to guard humanity from knowledge. They were called The Watchers, and according to some apocrypha (biblical material not approved by the Church, but archeologically associated with 'The Book'), they were all assigned disciplines - notably scientific. Things like agriculture, the building of war machines, cosmetics, and so on. It was all terribly specific. After a time, The Watchers apparently disagreed with god's judgement in the matter, and decided to teach humanity these tricks rather than hide them from humanity. This was not ok with the big man upstairs.


b ) In the process of teaching, some of these Watchers - also called 'Elohim' - came to adore humanity. They took lovers amongst humanity, and the resulting offspring were called the 'Nephilim'. According to Genesis 6:4, the Nephilim are referred to as giants, and generally thought of as nasty buggers. "There were giants on the earth in those days..". Somewhere in there, it indicates that they have a diet of .. Well, people.


c ) Around this time, people apparently were becoming more and more hedonistic, and the principles of aesceticism became extremely unpopular. However, god's main schtick was always the denial of physical pleasures in favour of spiritial enlightenment (whatever that means). So, basically, god didn't like the way worship was proceeding, and decided to start over.


There is a semi-bizarre correlary here. First of all, just about every ancient civilization (I'm not kidding) with a high point between 4000BC and 2000BC had legends referring to (I checked it out, I'm not just copping it from Fingerprints) fish-related highly advanced beings who came among them to teach. While they were revered, they weren't worshipped as gods - they were just teachers. It's kind of spooky how accurately they are mirrored from culture to culture, located so far apart. I mentioned in another thread the 'Viracocha People' - who were the Mayan/Aztec version of this myth. They were white guys with beards wearing what seemed to be fish-scale pants. Of course, if you look at the depictions (statues and the like), you might draw a number of conclusion. The 'fish-garb' they seem to be wearing is eerily reminscient of chain-mail - a type of armour created by linking a series of one-inch diameter chains until they become almost seamless. Oftentimes this 'fish-garb' covers the back half their heads - and looks suspiciously like a 'coif' - or hood like armoured appendage. Anyways, fact is, we know next to nothing about this stuff - anybody claiming to know what any of this means is throwing together far-fetched assumptions - even if they are the assumptions accepted by the establishment. It is strange, nonetheless. Most of the Mesopotamian cultures bore similar myths and traditions - referring to half-fish teachers. It's terribly common. And if you really wanted to, you could draw piles of correlaries between these myths and HP Lovecraft's cosmologies.


Needless to say, most of these people also had myths (which they wrote not as legend, but as history) referring to a flood which supposedly destroyed just about everything.


So, I suppose I just find this all a bit strange, but I'm hesitant to draw far-fetched conclusions. I do think, however, that the run-of-the-mill conclusions anthropologists have thrown together up until this point are a bit myopic.


Now, of course, anyone can reply saying anything they wish. However, if there were questions central to my thoughts on the issue, they would be :


I. Was there a deluge? Were there 'Viracocha People'?


II. If there were 'Viracocha People', who the hell were they?


III. Where did the projected date of Dec. 23rd 2012 come from, and should we lend any credence to a culture's apocalyptic theories on the weight of excellent time-tracking and impressive agricultural technology?


IV. Is anyone here convinced that something is going to happen?


Part of this is fueled by this bizarre certainty I had when I was younger. The sensation has dulled, but hasn't completely dissipated. I knew, in my heart, that something was absolutely wrong with the world, and I was certain that something would happen within my lifetime. The more I rationalize a feeling like this, the duller it gets - an apocalypse is predicted by somebody every hundred years or so, and people are always "preparing for the end". When you put things in that context, it's hard to take anything very seriously. But .. ButButBut ... I really did feel this way. I went through my teenage years wondering why anybody was doing anything in light of the fact that the whole topography of civilization would change abruptly before they knew it. Did anybody else feel this way? If so, why?

[ 24-07-2001: Message edited by: Frances ]
 
 
Ganesh
09:07 / 24.07.01
I felt a little like that too, but have generally attributed it to a) the fact that I was a teenager, and teenagers generally believe the world is or will become far more interesting (to paraphrase H. Lecter) for their being in it, and b) I 'came of age' during the 1980s at the height of the nuclear threat, and honestly, sincerely expected to hear the four-minute warning ever other day.

I'm not familiar with the Viracocha People - they sound a little like Africa's Dogon tribe and the Nommo. I am familiar with the Elohim/Nephilim/Watcher stuff, and find it interesting that a lot of 'End Times' conspiracy websites have tapped specifically into the whole 'fallen angel' thing. During Book II of The Invisibles, I also drew parallels with Morrison's 'magic mirror' and Mr Quimper - both pieces of the ethereal/spiritual trapped and 'corrupted' by becoming flesh. A pretty powerful theme.

I've also studied several legends of the Flood, and 'sunken civilisations'. It seems pretty clear that something happened which was big enough to make an impression on the whole world. It's a leap, nonetheless, to suppose it was anything other than a huge natural disaster.

I'm not sure I do believe anything will happen in 2012. Having been as touched by Millennium Fever as anyone else and been profoundly anticlimactic (twice), it's difficult to have much faith in End Of The World prophesying - even if it is Grant Morrison...

And the Nephilim, cannibals? Hmmm... this has all the ingredients of a major Laila rant...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
09:24 / 24.07.01
Saw the thread title and actually thought it was.

Once 2012 has come and gone, all the doomsayers will move on to the next signficant date. The world plods on.

As for why 2012 (apparently) crops up regularly? Evidence suggesting connections between ancient civilisations appears fairly often. Maps show things that their age suggests they shouldn't. Common links are found between the myths and legends of different peoples. Maybe 2012 falls into this.

[ 24-07-2001: Message edited by: E Randy Dub It ]
 
 
Frances Farmer
09:38 / 24.07.01
quote:
I felt a little like that too, but have generally attributed it to a) the fact that I was a teenager, and teenagers generally believe the world is or will become far more interesting (to paraphrase H. Lecter) for their being in it, and b) I 'came of age' during the 1980s at the height of the nuclear threat, and honestly, sincerely expected to hear the four-minute warning ever other day.


Totally understandable. As I said before, I myself didn't cling to these theories - aside from a vague nagging sensation that I'm sure we all feel that says "Everything is not as it seems.". But, I agree with what you're saying here - that a lot of this is a byproduct of 'Life and Times in Post-Modern Society' and teenage angst.

quote:
I'm not familiar with the Viracocha People - they sound a little like Africa's Dogon tribe and the Nommo. I am familiar with the Elohim/Nephilim/Watcher stuff, and find it interesting that a lot of 'End Times' conspiracy websites have tapped specifically into the whole 'fallen angel' thing.


They also sound a lot like Daniel Quinn's "The Takers" (Ishmeal, My Ishmeal, The Story of B) - white men with technologically advanced concepts introducing major features of agriculture and architecture to societies that previously didn't require them, but developed a learned dependence. Another part of this was the introduction of private property and ownership in general. I remember - quite distinctly - mention of The Nommo in The Invisibles, but I never had the tenacity to research it to the bone. Perhaps you'd be willing to share some of what you've read?

As far as the end-times tie-ins ; I think this is a byproduct borne of the ease of comparing fireballs, giants, and cannibals to cattle mutilations and the X-Files. It's just too easy to integrate every conspiracy you've heard of - and then throw in some biblical backing, to boot.

quote:
During Book II of The Invisibles, I also drew parallels with Morrison's 'magic mirror' and Mr Quimper - both pieces of the ethereal/spiritual trapped and 'corrupted' by becoming flesh. A pretty powerful theme.


Utterly Gnostic. Sophia the whore.

It is a powerful and fascinating theme, echoed all over the place. I'm convinced, in fact, that ancient cultures knew something we do not know, but I also don't agree with the run-of-the-mill self-satisfying explanations and conclusions drawn by the likes of Graham Hancock and, well, Laila.

quote:
I've also studied several legends of the Flood, and 'sunken civilisations'. It seems pretty clear that something happened which was big enough to make an impression on the whole world. It's a leap, nonetheless, to suppose it was anything other than a huge natural disaster.


Atlantis as a myth to encapsulate the spirit of a technologically advanced culture displaced or destroyed by the deluge? I'm not trying to suppose anything with this thread - just throwing out some odd or disconcerting ideas. I don't claim to know why it happened, but I'm slowly becoming convinced that it did in fact happen - and that ancient history texts summarising the civilizations pre-dating the flood (Antediluvians) have got a lot of it wrong.

quote:
I'm not sure I do believe anything will happen in 2012. Having been as touched by Millennium Fever as anyone else and been profoundly anticlimactic (twice), it's difficult to have much faith in End Of The World prophesying - even if it is Grant Morrison...




Me neither.

Or, I guess, more accurately - I think that we have misinterpreted what's being predicted. The classical mispresentation - The Coming Apocalypse - in fact refers to a great understanding - a changing of minds. 'Apocalypse' is equal to 'Revelation'.

quote:
And the Nephilim, cannibals? Hmmm... this has all the ingredients of a major Laila rant...[/QB]


Sure ; but it's all in the baking process.

There's nothing wrong with looking at the ideas on their own merit - it's when you become evangelical, judgemental, elitist, or just plain unwilling to communicate that you're .. Well, Laila.

So, to clarify -

The questions posed in this thread (aside from the statements clearly articulated in this post) do not represent my opinions. I just happen to think they're good questions.

Oh, and, when it comes to Cannibalism - I really don't know what to tell you. That's just what came up in my research. I'm fond of the Cannibalism discussed in 'Stranger in a Strange Land' - the idea of it as a revered and loving cultural custom - Not so much an ultra-Drawinesque form of dining. It's possible that this is the sort of practices they're talking about. However, it seems to distinctly indicate that the Nephilim were threatening to most people as they had certain dangerous dietary preferences. I really don't know what to make of that bit, though...
 
 
Ganesh
09:50 / 24.07.01
Bread, maybe? After all, Atlantis was supposedly known for its golden fields of wheat...

Because I'm a lazy bastard who can't be bothered typing 'nommo' into a search engine (oblige me please, technophiles), I'm dependent on my incredibly hazy memory. As far as I can remember, the Dogon are an ancient African tribe whose astronomical claim to fame was the ability to accurately tell the position of Sirius B, a 'dark star' which can't be seen without a telescope (I think). They had one or two other odd pieces of technological know-how, I think, and talked about having been contacted, long-ago, by the Nommo, fish-gods which supposedly came from Sirius B.

In The Invisibles, there's a brief reference to the Nommo in the 1920s scene where a young Edith meets Papa (what was his name again?) - the inference being that he's a descendant of the Dogon. John Smith, ever the Morrison imitator, wrote a whole 2000AD Devlin Waugh strip around the idea that the Nommo were returning to Earth.

God, this stuff used to utterly fascinate me. Suddenly, I have the urge to go check it all out again...

[ 24-07-2001: Message edited by: Ganesh ]
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
09:50 / 24.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Frances:
[QB]

a ) A number of god's servents, angels of his 'Heavenly Host', were sent to Earth to guard humanity from knowledge.
...

III. Where did the projected date of Dec. 23rd 2012 come from, and should we lend any credence to a culture's apocalyptic theories on the weight of excellent time-tracking and impressive agricultural technology?
...

IV. Is anyone here convinced that something is going to happen?

QB]


One (of the many) source of the 2012 figure is Terrence Mckenna's fractal timewave theory. It's based on the idea that time has a fractal structure, not linear or even cyclical, and that the I-Ching is based around this structure. I can't say I fully understand the maths behind it, but it has something to do with derivitives of the King Wen sequence (ie the somewhat counter-intuitive pattern the hexagrams are numbered in). This produces a graph which is supposed to correspond to the amount of novelty (ie new events and ideas). The graph supposedly hits zero at 2am on the 22nd December 2012.
see here for a better explanation: http://serendipity.magnet.ch/twz/gyrus/river.htm.

This also ties in to ideas about how we're discovering new ideas and new information at an exponentially increasing rate. See here for details: http://www.rawilson.com/sitnow.shtml
or here: http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1

One interpretation of this theory is that this curve (ie information discovered plotted against time) becomes vertical in december 2012.

However, there's an interesting corellation between these two (related) theories and point a) in that they both relate to mankind's pursuit of knowledge. Maybe God decides to punish us for the amount of knowledge we've gained? Or maybe we become god on that date?

As for IV) I find the 2012 figure more convincing than any other predicted apocalypse date. However, I'm not exactly going to blow all my life-savings in November 2012 based on these theories. I may well throw a party for that time, not because I believe anything will happen, but more because of what that date symbolises to me.
 
 
Frances Farmer
09:50 / 24.07.01
As a humerous side-comment (or not so humerous) : Maybe we become god and then decide to punish ourselves?

I'll post more later, after thought..

 
 
Frances Farmer
09:50 / 24.07.01
quote:
One (of the many) source of the 2012 figure is Terrence Mckenna's fractal timewave theory. It's based on the idea that time has a fractal structure, not linear or even cyclical, and that the I-Ching is based around this structure. I can't say I fully understand the maths behind it, but it has something to do with derivitives of the King Wen sequence (ie the somewhat counter-intuitive pattern the hexagrams are numbered in). This produces a graph which is supposed to correspond to the amount of novelty (ie new events and ideas). The graph supposedly hits zero at 2am on the 22nd December 2012.
see here for a better explanation: http://serendipity.magnet.ch/twz/gyrus/river.htm.


I had heard of the reference before, but had not studied enough to bring it up for fodder. It is fascinating, though. It makes me wonder if McKenna tailored the chart to fit the 2012 expectation, or if it was simply a "randomly" produced result. Still fascinating, though.

quote:
This also ties in to ideas about how we're discovering new ideas and new information at an exponentially increasing rate. See here for details: http://www.rawilson.com/sitnow.shtml
or here: http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1


I'm also familiar with this - a watered down version of this can be found in James Gleick's 'Faster' - an interesting follow up for the man who introduced the non-scientific world to fractals and chaos maths.

I think it's an interesting point - but is it inevitable? Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that a massive Electo-Magnetic Pulse shut down all of our modern communications mechanisms. Would the Mayan's lose their oh-so-particurally dependent prediction to a seemingly random event that caused a slowdown in the proliferation of newly discovered ideas?

quote:
One interpretation of this theory is that this curve (ie information discovered plotted against time) becomes vertical in december 2012.

However, there's an interesting corellation between these two (related) theories and point a) in that they both relate to mankind's pursuit of knowledge. Maybe God decides to punish us for the amount of knowledge we've gained? Or maybe we become god on that date?


Interestingly (to me), it seems that most the righteous retribution stories I've read involve anger towards 'corruption', where 'corruption' is connected to a detailed understanding of the world around us.

quote:
As for IV) I find the 2012 figure more convincing than any other predicted apocalypse date. However, I'm not exactly going to blow all my life-savings in November 2012 based on these theories. I may well throw a party for that time, not because I believe anything will happen, but more because of what that date symbolises to me.[/QB]


It is an interesting date, and holds all kinds of synchronistic significance - If you want to play with numbers, you can point out that '20 + 1 + 2 = 23', which would be pretty much inane. Still, the date resonates -and not only, I think, because of media circulation. My going assumption has been that if something does indeed happen on that date, it'll be completely transcedent - invalidating any need to react, or some such thing. Self-explaining, or, perhaps, the ultimate birds-eye view of the Mandelbrot set we run around in. But I do want to scrutinize the theories pointing towards this date and figure out where they come from - cultural current, or some sort of pheonominon in the natural world - and .. I don't know, I can't shake the thought of the Nommo / Elohim / Viracocha / Quezacoatl being innerconnected. Something's fishy here..

(Ha-Ha-Ha)
 
 
Templar
09:50 / 24.07.01
Also the sunspot cycles theory ("The Mayan Prophecies") where the solar wind causes shift in the Earth's magnetic field. Cue tidal waves, earthquakes, etc.
 
 
Dharma Bum
15:07 / 24.07.01
Couple things to point out relating back to the original post-
Some interesting points that catch your eye if you know Hebrew and read Genesis directly:

a) "elohim" is not the term for any "Watchers" but is rather the Hebrew phrase for God Himself. Or rather, intrestingly enough, literally plural "gods". But almost always used to refer a presumably singular Deity. Thus the creatures sent down to earth are referred to in the hebrew as "Bene Elohim", which is literally sons or children of gods.

b) Who then mated with human women and produced children called "nefillim" which just hit me as looking like a close match to the Hebrew root "nafal", which is literally "fall", as in the nefillim are "fallen ones".

c) I had always understood that the whole bit about the Nommo and the Dogon and Sirius B had been proven to be the work of shoddy anthropological research-- asking leading questions and all that, and that mainstream anthropologists dismiss it as nonsense. Unfortunatly I can't think of any references for it right now-- but again, that's the way it's always been thought up in my mind.

d) When you say that many ancienct cultures believed in a flood or a deluge that destroyed the world, look at which specific cultures say it: the Mesopotamian ones, the Canaanite/Hebrew ones, even the Arab ones, the Greeks, etc.-- all in the same area. It has been suggested that the Tigris and Euphrates rivers may have legitimately flooded and caused mass destruction in that whole Middle Eastern region, and stories of that influenced all cultures who live in that area. The Norse, for example, have no such myths.

Okay, those are just my immediate reactions to this whole thread...I'm a skeptical bastard, what can I say.
 
 
Blank Faced Avatar
15:42 / 24.07.01
If this were Laila, do you really think we'd make it as far as 2012? I think with that famous Lailasian ferocity, we got 'til about 2008, '09 tops.
 
 
MJ-12
16:01 / 24.07.01
Skeptic's Dictionary entry on the Dogon & Sirius

http://www.skepdic.com/dogon.html

links to further reading are at the bottom of the page
 
 
Frances Farmer
18:20 / 24.07.01
quote:
a) "elohim" is not the term for any "Watchers" but is rather the Hebrew phrase for God Himself. Or rather, intrestingly enough, literally plural "gods". But almost always used to refer a presumably singular Deity. Thus the creatures sent down to earth are referred to in the hebrew as "Bene Elohim", which is literally sons or children of gods.


A great many things regarding Christian theology change when you study them in Hebrew. As I don't speak Hebrew, I'm bound to the choppy English translations.

From what I've read, referring to English translations, Elohim is the word used to refer to the 'Heavenly Hosts' responsible for monitoring our progress, or lack thereof.

quote:
b) Who then mated with human women and produced children called "nefillim" which just hit me as looking like a close match to the Hebrew root "nafal", which is literally "fall", as in the nefillim are "fallen ones".


Truly fascinating. Does this also tie the Nephilim in with 'Legion'?

quote:
c) I had always understood that the whole bit about the Nommo and the Dogon and Sirius B had been proven to be the work of shoddy anthropological research-- asking leading questions and all that, and that mainstream anthropologists dismiss it as nonsense. Unfortunatly I can't think of any references for it right now-- but again, that's the way it's always been thought up in my mind.


Interesting. When I originally posted, I had no idea who the Nommo were - but I tend to agree. I'm not a big fan of extraterrestrials conclusions, and I'm in no advancing the theory that aliens seeded earth.

It was, in fact, other amphibious freaks that caught my attention.



quote:
d) When you say that many ancienct cultures believed in a flood or a deluge that destroyed the world, look at which specific cultures say it: the Mesopotamian ones, the Canaanite/Hebrew ones, even the Arab ones, the Greeks, etc.-- all in the same area. It has been suggested that the Tigris and Euphrates rivers may have legitimately flooded and caused mass destruction in that whole Middle Eastern region, and stories of that influenced all cultures who live in that area. The Norse, for example, have no such myths.


You must've missed my mention of Central American cultures. According to them, the Fourth Sun was destroyed by a deluge that left one man and one woman to repopulate. The Norse I'm just not sure about ; although I'd like to check the altitude of their homeland.

They're also the source of the Viracocha people - who it is assumed were clothed in fish-like garments. My argument is chain-mail. I think they were white men travelling by sea with advanced technological knowledge, wearing the armour in fashion at that time.

quote:
Okay, those are just my immediate reactions to this whole thread...I'm a skeptical bastard, what can I say.[/QB]


I don't blame you - I am, too. But, I'd like to point out that I'm not trying to lead anyone to a conclusion involving aliens from Sirius. I'm asking a few non-dramatic questions (ok, so the thread title was ridiculous, but that was kind of the point. I want it to a playful discussion, not a serious "I'm going to debunk your paranoid myths!" kind of thing). Anyways, here's what I want to know.

a ) Is it possible that sea-levels rose to a high enough point to destroy most life on earth, leaving the rest seperated enough as to not find each other a great many years?

b ) Is it possible that an advanced civilization went about teaching agriculture and architecture for one reason or another - most probably religious - by sea?

c ) Is it possible that these ancient civilizations had in fact advanced to an equal or greater level of technological and scientific prestige, compared to what we see today?

d ) Unfashionable as it may be to wonder, is it possible that something happens - as suggested by Graham Hancock - in massive and cataclysmic cycles?
 
 
grant
19:08 / 24.07.01
Note on the Dogon:
They also had diagrams of the inner solar system - could point to which "seed" humans lived on, knew the "seeds" were orbiting a big star.
And the Sirius B thing was discovered at about the same time astronomers detected the presence of Sirius B -- little chance for the anthro guys in the field to learn about it enough to ask leading questions. Possible, but unlikely.

McKenna also claimed not to have known about the Mayan calendar Long Count thing before doing his Timewave, but said he was pleased by the synchronicity.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:09 / 24.07.01
Okay, I know that I've read stuff that supports b), but can't find any sites that have relevant information now that I look. Well, none other than this one, which contains little other than suppostion.

(Incidentally, during my search I came across a site which had a section written by one Ronald M. Berndt. Weird.)
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
19:39 / 24.07.01
with regard to b> I'm tempted to say yes. Bucky Fuller made a big deal out of the idea that the original 'rulers of the earth' ie powerful humans, not lizards or anything, most skillful, best architects and so on, were sea-faring peoples- I think starting out from polynesia. He mentions this in about 'Everything I know) available at www.bfi.org. Still trying to find a more accurate reference: I'll edit this post when I find it....
 
 
MJ-12
19:47 / 24.07.01
from
http://www.ramtops.demon.co.uk/dogon.html

quote:Van Beek points out that Griaule's data was developed in long intense sessions with one primary informant, Ambara. In this process, Griaule probably reinterpreted statements from his informant in the light of his own knowledge about Sirius and its heavy companion, which had been much in the news at the time he began his field work. In turn, the Dogon, because Griaule was extremely respected and liked and because the Dogon culture places enormous importance on consensus and in avoiding contradictions, would have accepted his analysis as if it were theirs (van Beek 1991: 152-155). As an example of the process, van Beek points out a Dogon tale which explains the differences between white people and the Dogon, but which, in fact, is taken from the Bible. "Thus the story of the drunken Noah [Genesis 9: 21-27] has found its way into the stories of the se Dogon, who emphatically denied that this was a 'white' story." Traditionalists and Christians unanimously declared it to be Dogon: it belonged to the tem. In many other instances the process was discernible: foreign elements were adopted and in a single generation became "traditional."
 
 
SMS
09:56 / 25.07.01
quote:Frances:a ) Is it possible that sea-levels rose to a high enough point to destroy most life on earth, leaving the rest seperated enough as to not find each other a great many years?
Terrestrial life, you mean? Now that I come to think about it, why do we have so many mammals swimmming around the ocean?

quote:Frances:
d ) Unfashionable as it may be to wonder, is it possible that something happens - as suggested by Graham Hancock - in massive and cataclysmic cycles?

I recall hearing some scientist mention that mass extinctions seem to occur in very ordered cycles. "Like clockwork" was the phrase I remember. Apparently, scientists are scratching their heads trying to figure out what has a cycle of --- years. I don't recall what --- is, but its a damned big number and if this is the case, just about every living creature alive today is safe from the doom of this cycle ending.

Regarding what might happen in 2012:
A company announces a new type of internet video game in which human brain signals are monitored and you can control your player "JUST BY THINKING," says the add. It is a development of technology used for prothetics, which allows you to control your replacement legs as though they were real. The difference with the game is that you can actually receive signals as well as transmit them. Gamers quickly realize that this provides a new form of communication much better than instant messenger, and even better than human speech. The game is a fad, sweeping the world, used more often as a communications device than for the shoot 'em up toy it was designed as. The networks get very clogged by this, so eveyone puts their heads together to find a solution. Or, more accurately, they put their MINDS together. This is a collection of people communicating telepathically, and its unlike anything we had previously imagined. The ideas they produce don't come from any one individual. You couldn't point to an individual mind in the system, but what used to be individuals think of a way to unclog all the networks with lightening speed. As a result, communication is even better, and this continues until communication is so good among people in the world that the individual self completely disintegrates. There is only one mind. And it sees the world much differently than the parts that composed it. Its perception is so different that it recognizes time itself to be something different. Hence, "<time will no longer behave in the way it has since the beginnning of the universe>" (<---paraphrase)

This sounds like a long, slow process, but in fact it is not. As soon as we reach the critical point of having communication better than speech, everything speeds up asymptotically.

Do I believe this? To tell you the truth, it just seems like a natural process to me. The next step in human development. Or, perhaps, the next step in fahion.

But. I don't see any reason it would happen in 2012. And I'm still doubtful of the idea anyway, just based off the fact that it seems terribly nutty to me.

I bet there will be quite a few parties on that date. I'm having one.

Question: Terrence McKenna's timewave pattern hits zero at a very specific time, as I recall. In the morning in fact. So what timezone does it refer to???
 
 
Frances Farmer
13:48 / 25.07.01
So far, consensus seems to reveal that options 'a' and 'b' seem feasible - 'a' referring to a deluge-style incident, 'b' referring to societal seeding performed by a by a sea-faring, technologically advanced culture with no readily reachable roots - though I keep going back to comparisons between fish-garb and popular armour styles. A native tribe with only primitive metal-working experience could easily misinterpret something like chain-mail as 'fish-garb' - or at least it seems so to me.

Assuming for a moment that the biblical myth-cycle is not what it seems to be - advancing the theory that it is in fact an encapsulated historical document, cloaked in misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and mythological bullshit - could 'the fall' in fact be the process of traversing from a somewhat hedonistic, in certain ways innocent, tribal societal model to progress-orientated, hierarchal, but technologically advanced model?

Completely discounting the apocalypse theory for the purposes of this particular consideration (despite the title of the thread) - does this sound feasible?

If so, which (archtypal) forces are responsible for what?

Was the seeding of tribal societies a promethean act? The introduction of empowering technologies - fire to give light in the darkness - ships for exploration, architecture to help endure ; or was it in fact a controlling act - artificially engendering a trend leading to a learned dependence on certain ideals - putting these tribes on a predictable track, and so on?

I suppose what I'm asking is, what in the hell happened? Something certainly did, methinks. Could HP Lovecrafts' legion of monsters from the sea be related to this? Did he type into mythological archtypes to create his pantheon and cosmology?

This line of research had led me to a re-appraisal of colonization scenarios. Any time a sea-faring culture interacts with a tribal one, it makes me wonder..

Possible tie-ins with the Arthurian myth-cycle? Avalon and Atlantis? Somebody?
 
 
000
20:17 / 25.07.01
Frances;
Smile.
 
 
Ganesh
20:59 / 25.07.01
You still here, then?
 
 
reidcourchie
10:23 / 26.07.01
Okay, don't have an awful lot of time so this won't be the best post in the world. This is a rough overview of my knowledge of Celtic Myth/Legend/Pseudo History as regards this subject.

Irish Celtic History roughly translates itself into 3 myth cycles the first being the Book of Invasions. The Book of Invasions tells of the successive races that came to the island each conquering the one previous, culminating in the Sons of Mil (most probably Iberian Celts) conquering the Tuath de Danaan (fae/gods depending on your perspective.

From memory the invasions go thus:- The first people on Ireland where the Fir Bolg (men of the bag), who were apparently giants they where subsequently conquered by the Fomorians, who were sea demons and invented the pole tax (everyone say boo!), who were then invaded by the Tuatha (everyone say yay!), who where then invaded by the Sons of Mil (cheer depending on how you feel about humanity). That's legen anyway.

So what the fuck has all this got to do with the price of fish? I hear you ask (or this thread anyway). Well I'm glad you asked. The Fomorians are supposed to be aquatic demons there's your Viracocha/Deep Ones link. In fact I've always been struck by the Fomorian/Aquatic people in conspiratorial history texts connection but I'm not aware of anyone picking it up. I probably just haven't read enough.

Now the Tuatha. The Tuath supposedly came to Ireland after their homeland Tir Nan Og (the land of the young) was destroyed in a... (dramatic pause) deluge and became Tir Nan Cruin (the land of tears). On of the ideas as to why this happened is that the Tuatha were supposed to have lived in big cities (four of them Morias, Gorias and... the other two) and apparently Danu (one of their goddesses/ancestors) became angry about the cities and destroyed them. Obviously this parralels the Atlantean myth. Also some writers have interpreted the four mighty weapons from each of the cities as technologically adavnced (spear of light etc.).

I think the Celtic myth cycles do fit in with this overall apocalyptic correlation between apparently disparate cultures. However I thing this points towards a common wellspring from which myth and legend evolved. Most religions seem to have a relativly similar core legend, possibly developed from Mesopatanian/Sumerian myth.

I do think there was a deluge (and I believe there's quite strong archaelogical evidence to support this) but it was localised to the Medditeranian region (the birthplace of civilisation?) but the myth traveled. I think that Atlantis and Tir Na Og (which has in the past been attributed to America) probably had more in common with what happened to Troy than anything else (pure conjecture on my part).

In the case of the Irish Cycles the Celts traded and where heavily influenced by the Greeks and other sea faring races in the Medditeranian. This probably effected their belief systems. Diana becoming Danu, the three fates becoming the 3 face of Danu etc. And Tir Na Og got mixed up with Atalantis and Troy. (And the Nordic Norns? Incidently if you wanted to you connect Ragnarok to these apocalyptic correlations without too much trouble.)

As for Ireland, a successive invasion by seperate tribes/peoples, the conquered tribe going onto join folklore as something otherworldy. One of whom may have been the Viracocha people. (Both the fomorians and the Tuatha had technological apptitude attributed to them.

Anyway another huge rambling and difficult to read post from me, I hope you can work out what I was trying to say. As an asides, the technology to produce chainmail did not exist for several thousand years after, now even allowing for a race to be advanced compared to other (in many cases quite advanced cultures) the anachronism of chainmail may be almost as mnumental as the anachronism of a flying machine.

Good thread.
 
 
Frances Farmer
16:05 / 26.07.01
Okay, don't have an awful lot of time so this won't be the best post in the world. This is a rough overview of my knowledge of Celtic Myth/Legend/Pseudo History as regards this subject.

Very valuable. In fact, I used to study Celtic myth extensively, but most of it has drained from my cranial cavity.

Irish Celtic History roughly translates itself into 3 myth cycles the first being the Book of Invasions. The Book of Invasions tells of the successive races that came to the island each conquering the one previous, culminating in the Sons of Mil (most probably Iberian Celts) conquering the Tuath de Danaan (fae/gods depending on your perspective.

The Tuath De Danaan in fact comprise most of the Celtic pantheon - Lugh, the Celtic version of Lucifer - is revered, and is also a bringer of light. The fae - you're exactly right - are of the Tuath De Danaan, and to boot, all of the superhuman Celtic heroes, such as Cuchalain, were ... Surprise! Of the Tuath de Danaan.

From memory the invasions go thus:- The first people on Ireland where the Fir Bolg (men of the bag), who were apparently giants they where subsequently conquered by the Fomorians, who were sea demons and invented the pole tax (everyone say boo!), who were then invaded by the Tuatha (everyone say yay!), who where then invaded by the Sons of Mil (cheer depending on how you feel about humanity). That's legend anyway.

So we have the First Sun, occupied by the Fir Bolg, followed by Fomorians, who occupied the Second Sun - followed by the Tuatha de Danaan, occupying the Third Sun, and then the Sons of Mil, within the Fourth Sun .... And the Christians comprise the Fifth? Or were the Sons of Mil Christian?

So what the fuck has all this got to do with the price of fish? I hear you ask (or this thread anyway). Well I'm glad you asked. The Fomorians are supposed to be aquatic demons there's your Viracocha/Deep Ones link. In fact I've always been struck by the Fomorian/Aquatic people in conspiratorial history texts connection but I'm not aware of anyone picking it up. I probably just haven't read enough.

The price of fish in Africa, thank you! The interesting thing about these watery folks is the fact that they conjure all sorts of images in the imagination reading about a single culture - but the sheer broadness of their appearence in world mythology is only rarely touched upon. I think it's a significant correlation that goes ignored often because folks with scientific minds tend to discount any pheonomenon not fitting their convenient mold as static. Note the attitudes toward Quantum Theory prior to Heisenberg's break-through Uncertainty Principle. No one knew how to deal with the pheonomenon prior to Heisenberg, and oftentimes research in that realm was patently ignored due to the sticky subject matter. The effect of observation on the wave form, prior to Heisenberg, was experimentally ignored as static.

Now the Tuatha. The Tuath supposedly came to Ireland after their homeland Tir Nan Og (the land of the young) was destroyed in a... (dramatic pause) deluge and became Tir Nan Cruin (the land of tears). On of the ideas as to why this happened is that the Tuatha were supposed to have lived in big cities (four of them Morias, Gorias and... the other two) and apparently Danu (one of their goddesses/ancestors) became angry about the cities and destroyed them. Obviously this parralels the Atlantean myth. Also some writers have interpreted the four mighty weapons from each of the cities as technologically adavnced (spear of light etc.).

<Nods> Perhaps you can enlighten me - is there a direct relationship between 'Tir Nan Og' and Summerland?

Two artifiacts with fascinating world-mythology parellels are The Spear of Lugh (Is this synonymous with the spear of light?) and the Cauldron of Dagda. During war-time, fallen soldiers could be placed in the Cauldron of Dagda to be revived by the next day, to fight again. For some reason, my mind automatically jumps to the Lance of Longinus and the Holy Grail. Was anybody pierced with the Spear of Lugh to verify death?

I think the Celtic myth cycles do fit in with this overall apocalyptic correlation between apparently disparate cultures. However I thing this points towards a common wellspring from which myth and legend evolved. Most religions seem to have a relativly similar core legend, possibly developed from Mesopatanian/Sumerian myth.

Very possibly. It all may come back to the cradles of civilization - but our current theory of ancient history doesn't permit for such re-mapping of our concept of how it all began. Apparently, it is accepted that civilization developed seperately in Mesopotamia, Central America, and China. Which reminds me that an analysis of Chinese mythology might be in order. I bet they've got fish-people, somewhere in there.

I do think there was a deluge (and I believe there's quite strong archaelogical evidence to support this) but it was localised to the Medditeranian region (the birthplace of civilisation?) but the myth traveled. I think that Atlantis and Tir Na Og (which has in the past been attributed to America) probably had more in common with what happened to Troy than anything else (pure conjecture on my part).

This will require more thought on my part.

In the case of the Irish Cycles the Celts traded and where heavily influenced by the Greeks and other sea faring races in the Medditeranian. This probably effected their belief systems. Diana becoming Danu, the three fates becoming the 3 face of Danu etc. And Tir Na Og got mixed up with Atalantis and Troy. (And the Nordic Norns? Incidently if you wanted to you connect Ragnarok to these apocalyptic correlations without too much trouble.)

This is utterly feasible. I need to study Norse mythology more in depth - apocalyptic myth is not enough. We need a deluge, fish-people, and (preferably) a few giants for seasoning.

As for Ireland, a successive invasion by seperate tribes/peoples, the conquered tribe going onto join folklore as something otherworldy. One of whom may have been the Viracocha people. (Both the fomorians and the Tuatha had technological apptitude attributed to them.

Again, worth consideration. Were we saying the Fomorians were the fish people? The Tuatha de Danaan were the Nephilim(equivelents), or the other way around? Ah, yes - the other way around, I think. Help! I'm getting it all mixed up in my aimless brain.

Anyway another huge rambling and difficult to read post from me, I hope you can work out what I was trying to say. As an asides, the technology to produce chainmail did not exist for several thousand years after, now even allowing for a race to be advanced compared to other (in many cases quite advanced cultures) the anachronism of chainmail may be almost as mnumental as the anachronism of a flying machine.

I think I do - but as regards the chainmail, we also must consider that the basic premise of all of this seriously throws of the basic historical concepts in regards to where various technologies developed, and when. Very important stuff.

Good thread.

Better post! I had totally forgotten the Celtic myth-cycles. I thank you much.
 
 
Frances Farmer
18:52 / 26.07.01
Laila'll love this one - but just for reference on the Nephilim in association with cannibalism and mating :


Book of Enoch (Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament) :


Chapter 7 states "And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, made them acquainted with plants. And they become pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed all the aquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones."


And in regards more technological knowledge, chapter 8 states "And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly sotnes, and all colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraquijal [taught] astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araquiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven"


Furthermore, in chapter 9 we find the following exerpt : "'..Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. Thou seest what Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were [preserved] in heaven, which men were striving to learnve slept with the 9 women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins." .... followed by "'And the woman have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrightousness'" ... and finally "'....Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.'"


...And then comes the deluge. They're referring to specific forms of knowledge ... I find that utterly fascinating. Naturally, this sort of thing must taken with many, many grains of salt.


And for the Sitchin fans, this particular chunk of Apocrypha is the source of the passage - "...And I looked and saw therin a lofty throne: its appearence was as crystal, and the wheels thereof as the shining sun, and there was the vision of cherubim. And from underneath the throne came streams of flaming fire so that I could not look thereon. And the Great Glory sat thereon, and His raiment shone more brightly than the sun and was whiter than any snow."


And of course, the Watchers are imprisoned here : "...And I saw a deep abyss, with columns of heavenly fire, and among them I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water uopn it, and no bids, but it was a waste and a horrible place. I saw there seven stars like great burning mountains, and to me, when I inquired regarding them, The angel said: 'This place is the end of heaven and earth: this has become a prison for the stars and the host of heaven. And the stars which roll over the fire are they which have transgressed the commandment of the Lord in the beginning of their rising, because they did not come forth at their appointed times. And He was wroth with them, and bound them till the time when their guild should be consummated for ten thousand years.'" ... And in the next chapter, "...This place is the prison of the angels, and here they will be imprisoned for ever.". Absolutely contradictory, no?


But nonetheless, fascinating in compare to The Hypostatis of the Archons :


"...And Zoe (Life), the daughter of Pistis Sophia, cried out and said to him 'You are mistaken, Sakla!' - for which the alternative name is Yaldabaoth. She breathed into his face, and her breath became a fiety angel for her, and that angel bound Yaldabaoth and cast him down into Tartoros below the abyss."


Hmm. Naturally, correlations between Old Testament Apocrypha and Gnostic pieces are hardly surprising, but it's hard not to be fascinated by this stuff.


Hmm.


Not that I claim to know what it means, or anything.


"...Now when these [events] had come to pass, he [Sabaoth] made himself a huge four-faced chariot of cherubim, and infinitely many angels to act as ministers, and also harps and lyres." I'll stop now ... This is getting non-sensical.


I guess I'm trying to establish a 'Who's-Who of Antediluvian Mythology', or something.

[ 27-07-2001: Message edited by: Frances ]
 
 
Dharma Bum
20:10 / 28.07.01
Okay, more of my random thoughts:

Norse mythology doesn't have much on deluges, that I can recall. Not in terms of creation myths...
As I recall, Norse creation has a land of fire, and land of ice: they come together to create the first creature, which is a giant cow, as well as the first of the Frost Giants. The cow licks out of the ice the shape of the first god, the grandfather of Odin. Eventually Odin and his brothers kill the frost giant and make the world out of his body. Man and woman are created by bits of wood that Odin and each of his brothers imbues with certain abilities-- motion, sense, language.

Norse mythology is pretty trippy-- the first frost giant, Ymir, had children by growing them out of the sweat of his armpit, and one of his feet mated with the other...lots of giants, but no deluges or fish-people...

However, to tie back to the whole Celtic waves of conquest/different Suns thing-- the Greeks had the myth of the Age of Gold, then the Age of Silver, then the Age of Bronze, each generation of men becoming successively ruder, cruder, and more miserable as Zeus kept destroying and recreating the world.

Anyone know anything about the Hopi mythology? I think they've got similar concepts.
 
 
Warewullf
13:19 / 30.07.01
IIRC, The Fomorians also lived on a island.
Somewhere off the coast of Donegal, I believe. Shrouded in mist.

Another Fish people/Atlantis parallel?
 
 
z3r0
11:25 / 31.07.01
Once I read a piece by Asimov, where he went on saying something like:

Any culture, in a given time, will experience a flood. It's a natural disaster, nothing wrong with it.
Now, if for some particular reason, that flood comes more violent, or lasts longer, long enough to enter the records of that civilization - and if that civilization is a primitive one, given to explain and deal with all sorts of natural phenomena through myths and superstitions, then its likely that "the flood that drowned the valley/prairie/village" will become "the deluge that drowned the world", because those people had no idea of how big the world is, and since they were not nomads, they thought that their surrounding environment reflected the aspect of all the Earth.

I think that this is a pretty valid idea.
What do you think?
 
 
Frances Farmer
14:51 / 31.07.01
Perfectly valid.

I'm entertaining three possibilities at this point. The last one will be, in my opinion, the most plausible.

I. A deluge large enough to "drown the world" occured due to a cyclic geological anomaly. Some cultures survived, and some were destroyed completely. The ones that did survive, and had built monuments - enough to 'preserve' pieces of their civilization - historically recorded the flood within the context you're describing, ascribing a mythological basis to a perfectly natural occurance.

II. An antediluvian civilization, thriving and technologically advanced prior to the flood, managed to survive the flood due to their technological prowess. They encapsulated as much knowledge as possible, and after rising to a state of comfort once more, began to seek an alternate home, aware that the Nile region could easily flood again. This was not only a migration, but a scientific undertaking, where they proceeded to interact with and catalog the customs of many surviving ancient civilizations. They seeded these civilizations not only with some of their technological prowess - architectural and agricultural, mostly - and taught them their history. Because they bore weapons and other technologies of an advanced order (but specifically disdained needless death and human sacrifice), the cultures they visited looked upon these peaceful visitors fondly, and thought of them as advanced. They recorded their knowledge as if it were the knowledge of the gods, inherited their calander and pieces of their geological knowledge (which perhaps is what permitted them to survive the disaster in the first place). In addition, they passed some of their mathematical/calendrical traditions down to the Olmecs, who passed them to the Mayans, who passed them to the Aztecs - becoming further diluted on each link.

Where they went, we don't know.

III. Post-flood, a civilization which directly inherited various types of knowledge from earlier, more advanced civilizations, followed the suit of the civilization discussed above - 'pollenated' mother earth, if you will. They learned how to build ships and navigate by the stars - perhaps even inheriting a tenative map of the globe. It is interesting to note that ancient writings from Central America - religious in nature, mostly - refer to the Viracocha people or the Quezacoatl people as having "explored the round face of the earth". The subtext here is obvious - they didn't think the earth was flat.

The third is the most 'down to earth', the first is most dramatic. I'm leaning towards option II - someone predicted the flood as a natural event, moved on, travelled about looking for a new place to lay their roots, and spread their knowledge the whole way there. Perhaps not all them knew these things, or wanted to know these things - perhaps it was a smaller group within the civilization that had these realizations and acted on them. The seeding took place only over the course of a generation, after which they quickly died off for one reason or another. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps.

Ideas?
 
 
angel
11:52 / 01.08.01
Just a quick idea to be explored....

From my Medieval Re-enactment experience my understanding is that the Celts invented chain mail, I would assume some time around the time of the discovery of metal working techniques (could probably get you dates if you want). So the time frame for cultures meeting mail wearing seafarers would have to match the known time line for the discovery of these skills.

However, there is another type of armour that looks even more like fish scales and is not reliant on the knowledge of metal work. This armour is called lamellar (sp?) and is basically pieces of material (leather, wood, shell, anything really) that have been bound together so that next layer of material overlaps the previous. Damn this would be easier to draw than describe. Ah, in fact the scales of this armour overlap in much the same way as a feathered cloak or, indeed, fish scales.

Hmm does that make any sense? I know that the Romans used this technique for armour, and I'm sure that they must have got it from someone else previously. Also given the time line restraints, this possibly gives a more plausable explaination.

And having made my own lamellar for a combat helm, I can attest that once the pieces have been appropriately sized and the pattern of lacing has been worked out, it is relatively quick and easy to put together.

Great thread! Hope this helps!
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
16:17 / 02.08.01
quote:Originally posted by Frances:


b ) Is it possible that an advanced civilization went about teaching agriculture and architecture for one reason or another - most probably religious - by sea?


I knew it was there somewhere: http://watch.pair.com/mark2.html for a mention of these fish-people.
 
 
Ganesh
18:59 / 02.08.01
Aren't they lizard people, Member #187?

Actually, the stuff on Merovee is interesting; I remeber it from 'The Holy Blood & The Holy Grail'.

[ 03-08-2001: Message edited by: Ganesh ]
 
 
shoal
18:10 / 10.03.04
Replying to the apocolypse. the mayan date 4 ahau 5 kankau points to the 22 december of 2012. let see 2+2= 4 and 2+0+1+2=5. The anciant mayansa also had found this date and also had pictograms of the Nephilim, caucasian bearded wise men.
 
 
grant
18:27 / 10.03.04
You might enjoy searching for topics on Enoch and the Nephilim in the Magick Forum, shoal.
 
 
raelianautopsy
20:36 / 10.03.04
My own intuition and studies confirm that there is something wrong with the world and that in 2012 something big is going to happen.

But as far as an End of the World Deluge I try to be skeptical of it. Maybe something will happen, but the problem is that every generation believes that their's is the last one. Politically, wasn't the Cold War a better scenario for the end of the world than this War on Terror?

The best example of what I am talking about is Revelations in the Bible. I can easily bring up how the Mark of the Beast refers to the inevitable cashless society we are evolving towards, and then there'll be microchips, etc.

But when it was Revelations was written people thought that it was referring to their lifetimes back then. Durring the Plague days of Europe people saw it as prophecy- all of the Famine and Pestilence references in the said Book. Every generation has interprated Revelations as something that is comming true in their lifetimes, that theirs is the End of Days. There are examples abound for other cultures as well.



But we'll see soon enough.
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:38 / 10.03.04
heh fun...

was more into the 2012 thing back when i was doing ALOT more psychedelics than I do these days...

Random tidbits:
I believe there's a norse myth where THOR fights the world serpent (which is wrapped around the world) and the battle lasts somemeasure of time with continued Rains and storms and a rising of the tide.

There's also a story in Hindu mytholy of a flood the covers all but the highest peaks of the Hymlaias.

as for the Mayans, the myth of their "disappearance" is being debunked bit by bit. One theory has it that after the pyramids where built and agracultural develpments resulted in the clearing of nearby forests and eventually deminished crops (brought about by soil depleation) the rulling classes pretty much declared the city used up. Everyone picked up what they could, left behind what they didn't need, and moved on.
Over the past handful of years there has been a gradual resurfacing of interests in Mayan culture as lived by their decendants. Here's an example
 
  

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