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nanosexuality- the next sexual revolution?

 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
12:33 / 23.07.01
<DISCLAIMER: I generally avoid posting to (although read with interest) the various gender politics/ queer theory threads, on the grounds that I know relatively little about these subject areas, especially compared to some of you fine folks. So if I come across as naieve, or just plain talking-out-of-my-arse, I apologise in advance, and ask that you be patient with me.>

Suppose that, at some point in the future, scientist develop nanobots, capable of swimming around inside a persons body, unclogging their arteries, rebuilding cancerous cells, and helping out our immune systems. (I reckon this could happen in around 50 years, but that's neither here nor there.) With such technology, it will then be possible for a person to change (physical) sex (in both directions) with negligible difficulty: not merely on a cosmetic level, but genetically, hormonally, as well as in terms of what organs a person has, ie an ex-man would be able to menstruate and get pregnant, an ex-woman would be able to impregnate someone, and so forth.
So:

1. This means that a couple, instead of having one sexual combination available to them, now has four: instead of having to stick with (eg) male/female couplings, they can now have mf,fm,ff and mm. Would this count as an example of 'queer heterosexuality'? Would such recreational gender-blending be considered part of the fetish scene, 'normal', slightly kinky sexual experimentation, or would it become part of mainstream society?
2. If it did become mainstream, what would this mean for our ideas about gender, about identity, and such forth? Would whole new 'categories' of sexual identities appear, ie physical males who identify as 'she', and dress and act in 'feminine' ways (as distinct from transvestites/transexuals, on the grounds that such a person 'is' a woman who wants to try out a new body, without having to develop new habits or buy a new wardrobe). (And I accept that such terms 'feminine behaviour' are fuzzy at best...). Would the concepts of 'masculine' and 'feminine', and for that matter 'straight', 'bi', 'gay', 'queer' and all sorts of others become completely obsolete and meaningless? If so, what would replace them?
3. What about the children? Would/should this futuristic society allow people who are still developing their understanding of gender and sexuality to alter their bodies in this manner? If we maintained some concept of 'masculine' and 'feminine' and 'default sex' would children be allowed to choose their gender/sex? At what age? How would this affect our psychological theories and our personalities (A lot of freudian theory, like penis envy and castration anxiety, would have to change radically (and yeah sure, I know freud's theories are far from perfect, but they're the most obvious example of how something like this could affect us psychologically.)

I think I've gone on long enough, and I haven't even begun to speculate on the posibilities of inventing entire new sexes, and entire new organs, I'm sure there's dozens of other questions and speculation possible on this subject.
So, yeah, what do you think?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:57 / 23.07.01
Oxygen running low... No time for detailed reply...

In a future such as you describe (which i admit I quite like the sound of) all descriptions of hetero, homo, bi, male, female, would mean vastly different things to the meanings we assign to them now.
 
 
Ierne
16:29 / 23.07.01
It also sounds bloody expen$ive...

I must admit, I'm rather confused as to how these nanobots would be able to change gender. Would they be tinkering with our hormone levels?
 
 
Mordant Carnival
16:43 / 23.07.01
The nanobots cart matter around at the molecular level, (Duh! Read more science fiction, if you want to play with the real nerds ) so they can build you whatever organs you care to have, in whatever combinations.

I can see this solving another problem faced by many couples. Not only could we have sex changes just by thinking about it, but all that "what am I going to with this awkward arm" fidgeting as you try to get to sleep will be a thing of the past.

Up to you what you do with the spare tissue...
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
16:45 / 23.07.01
quote:Originally posted by Ierne:
It also sounds bloody expen$ive...


Possibly at first, but as with cars and computers, prices would probably come down quite rapidly. As nanotechnology would completely revolutionise manufacturing, this could happen very quickly, and it's possible nanotech could lead to the abolition of money, and indeed work... But that's a whole different thread... It's also worth noting that nanobots could well be capable of building other nanobots (self-replication) and therefore all you really need a sufficiently generous friend to give you a copy of them.

quote: Originally posted by Ierne:

I must admit, I'm rather confused as to how these nanobots would be able to change gender. Would they be tinkering with our hormone levels?


Partly, although I think that's currently (sort of) possible (although in a relatively crude way(?) I know next to nothing about biochemistry) using drugs. I was more meaning that they'd be able to rebuild our bodies from an molecular (or at least cellular) level upwards, taking apart your Y chromosome and rebuilding it as an X (or vice versa of course) and (re)building your sexual organs according your own specifications...

[ 23-07-2001: Message edited by: Senor Haiku Creates Utopia ]
 
 
Disco is My Class War
05:54 / 24.07.01
It sounds great and I'd be all for it. But there are a couple of conditional points that might want to be made....

Firstly, theoretically, if you could ask the nanobots in your system to configure gender exactly as you wanted it, there would be a far greater selection of genders and sexual pairings than four. If nanobots could be used to change organs/hormones between genders, wouldn't that also open the field for people to invent their own strange sex organs, which might or might not look anything like the kinds of sexual organs w're used to? Bring it on.....

But knowing a little about the physical/psychological/emotional/hormonal effects of 'bio'-transitioning through gender/sex as it stands at the moment, I'm not totally sure about the, uh, 'side effects' of constant genderflux. How would our bodies cope? How would our minds cope?

Secondly, if this biotechnology did become 'widely' available like computers and cars, it would still only be accessible by a mainly white elite who own the means of production. Which means it would never be a universal—reproducing the current situation, which is of course that sure, you can change your gender, as long as you can present the cash and live in a country where the practice is legal. And even then you'll have to see X number of therapists and doctors to be classified as gender 'dysphoric' enough to access the nanotech. Forgive me for reminding everyone, but a tiny percentage of the people in the world are actually able to do that right now—and most of them are white. So the technology would still be in the hand of the ruling elites, who are anyhow allowed to get away with whatever they can. This might also render nanotech genderbending a fringe culture/practice.

A third and related point is that such technology would be under constant scrutiny from various bodies with investments in the family, like fundamentalist christian groups (who I can see opposing any legislation that made this tech widely available), gender policing people, right-wing thinktanks. Makoing gender transitioning widely available through nanobots would almost certainly take away from the knowledge/technology of sex as reproductive (socially, culturally, biologically) — which I can't really see anyone in power actually falling for, given the discursive connection between the family and the state.

Is this making sense? Sorry to attack your lovely utopia, Señor Haiku.
 
 
Ierne
11:39 / 24.07.01
Secondly, if this biotechnology did become 'widely' available like computers and cars, it would still only be accessible by a mainly white elite who own the means of production. – D'Luscious Rosa

That's exactly what I meant by expen$ive.

BUT, let's say there was a generous friend willing to hook me up with this new technology...what if hir nanobot doesn't click with my system? Would we need the same blood type? Would it depend on DNA (which means I'd need a generous relative)? What if my body rejects the nanobot, or worse yet treats it like a virus?
 
 
The Sinister Haiku Bureau
11:49 / 24.07.01
quote:Originally posted by D'Luscious Rosa:

Is this making sense? Sorry to attack your lovely utopia, Señor Haiku.

Yes, and no need to apologise. I'm not necessarily proposing this as a utopia though (I'm sure some people, like the christian right, would see this as a nighmarish scenario): I just believe that sooner or later this will happen, and will become possible, and that society's going to have to figure out what it all means.

quote:Originally posted by D'Luscious Rosa:


It sounds great and I'd be all for it. But there are a couple of conditional points that might want to be made....

Firstly, theoretically, if you could ask the nanobots in your system to configure gender exactly as you wanted it, there would be a far greater selection of genders and sexual pairings than four. If nanobots could be used to change organs/hormones between genders, wouldn't that also open the field for people to invent their own strange sex organs, which might or might not look anything like the kinds of sexual organs w're used to? Bring it on.....

But knowing a little about the physical/psychological/emotional/hormonal effects of 'bio'-transitioning through gender/sex as it stands at the moment, I'm not totally sure about the, uh, 'side effects' of constant genderflux. How would our bodies cope? How would our minds cope?

Secondly, if this biotechnology did become 'widely' available like computers and cars, it would still only be accessible by a mainly white elite who own the means of production. Which means it would never be a universal—reproducing the current situation, which is of course that sure, you can change your gender, as long as you can present the cash and live in a country where the practice is legal. And even then you'll have to see X number of therapists and doctors to be classified as gender 'dysphoric' enough to access the nanotech. Forgive me for reminding everyone, but a tiny percentage of the people in the world are actually able to do that right now—and most of them are white. So the technology would still be in the hand of the ruling elites, who are anyhow allowed to get away with whatever they can. This might also render nanotech genderbending a fringe culture/practice.

A third and related point is that such technology would be under constant scrutiny from various bodies with investments in the family, like fundamentalist christian groups (who I can see opposing any legislation that made this tech widely available), gender policing people, right-wing thinktanks. Makoing gender transitioning widely available through nanobots would almost certainly take away from the knowledge/technology of sex as reproductive (socially, culturally, biologically) — which I can't really see anyone in power actually falling for, given the discursive connection between the family and the state.



To your first point, yeah, sure, I just thought that for the sake of this discussion it would be easier to stick with current genital conventions. A guy called Prof. R.C.W. Ettringer, writing on approximately this subject, said:
quote:
...the sexual superwoman may be riddled with cleverly designed orifices of various kinds, something like a wriggly swiss cheese, but shaplier and more fragrant; and her supermate may sprout assorted protuberances, so the may intertwine and roll over each other in a million permutations of the Act, tireless as hydrolic pumps, a perpetual grapple, no holes barred, could produce a continuous state of multiple orgasm.


I'd have to disagree with your second point though. Nanotechnology will completely redefine the means of production. If we reach a level of nanotech whereby we have nanobots capable of self-replication, and capable of building any structure out of its raw atoms, then I'm not convinced that capitalism, or the concept of 'ruling elite' or even concepts of 'work' or 'money' will survive. Everybody will have access to the same amount of resources as a multi-millionaire. I also think that your comments about requiring therapists and doctors permission need not apply. The only reason that currently, changing gender is considered such a big deal, is because it's a very difficult procedure, very hard to reverse, and ultimately only cosmetic. Also, if having in-body nanobots became commonplace, then theres not much doctors and therapists could do to stop you. Its also possible that, with such technology, people won't really need doctors any more (although there may or may not still be a place for psychologists/psychiatrists.)
As regards your third point, although I disagree slightly about the connection between sex and reproduction (which arguably has been breaking down for decades, ever since the development of contraception). Although I can see restrictions being placed on nanotechnology, not just to 'maintain family values' but also to maintain the position of the aforementioned global power elite, and to 'protect the public from nanotech terrorists', i sincerely hope they don't. I'm tempted to argue, in fact that how much access the public has to nanotech could become THE big political issue of the future....
 
 
Ria
13:53 / 24.07.01
scattered observations...

nanotech if a household word (maybe under a different name) will scare the same people who the mere concept of biotechnology scares and for the same reasons.

it will scare any members of the elites who don't want destablization... whether or not it would happen it could happen... and so they will keep it under guard... good point or try... I think of a couple of precedents... USSR officials not wanting citizens to have copiers or personal computers (or did I just believe folklore to that effect?) and the outlawing of LSD.
 
 
Mordant Carnival
18:40 / 30.07.01
Conversation in pub, Re: nanosexchange.

Awhile back my (male) Latin Lover was postulating just-by-thinking-about-it sex changes to two of his best blokey mates.

LL: "Yeah, but what if you could change your sex like putting on lipstick?"

Bezzies: (exchanging odd looks) "Wouldn't do it."

LL: (patiently) "Yes, but what if it was as easy as putting on lipstick?"

Bezzies: "Yeah, still not up for it."

LL: (even more patiently) "I mean, sex changes that you could do, right, like putting on lipstick?"

Back and forth, back and forth, till I lean over and invite LL to envisage bezzies ever wearing cosmetics of any kind, let alone lippy.

LL: "OhhHHHhh! I see."

Bezzies: (nodding) "YeahhhhHHa."

Gender identity comes in permenant as well as wash-out.

[ 30-07-2001: Message edited by: Mordant Carnival ]
 
 
Ierne
19:26 / 30.07.01
Pehaps if LL had likened it to downing a can of lager...?
 
 
ephemerat
11:39 / 01.08.01
Or as a means of getting in to girls' changing rooms.

One must first seduce to pervert.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:34 / 05.08.01
Johnny Haiku quoted some professor saying:

quote: ...the sexual superwoman may be riddled with cleverly designed orifices of various kinds, something like a wriggly swiss cheese, but shaplier and more fragrant; and her supermate may sprout assorted protuberances, so the may intertwine and roll over each other in a million permutations of the Act, tireless as hydrolic pumps, a perpetual grapple, no holes barred, could produce a continuous state of multiple orgasm.


which almost answers some of his original questions: if people's imaginations are still limited to:

(1) Sex = putting protuberances in holes
(2) Men have protuberances, women have holes

then this nanotech ain't going to do a fucking thing (like, I was really pissed off in the online Cyborg Manifesto when they said something like: "you could fuck Mother Theresa or Catwoman, get fucked by Pan or Jesus"... but not a hint that you could get fucked by someone presenting under 'f' or fuck someone presenting under 'm'.)

The whole relationship between technology and desire is implicated here. Very shallow and not-thought-through observation, but it was around the 60's, when the Pill started taking off, that white Western female sex symbols started being skinny and girlish rather than all-tits-and-ass. Much as I hate and suspect that whole link between cultural representations and genetic imperatives to reproduce, this is the only example I can think of offhand...

Do we *need* nanotech to bring about the kind of changes you're envisioning? Does anyone really care whether they have an X or a Y chromosome? Would people really need to rebuild all their internal organs in order to feel they'd changed sex? Is the inside of the body becoming just another surface?
 
  
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