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Plastic Surgery

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Tryphena Absent

19:38 / 07.11.02

I've been thinking about plastic surgery recently. I have three friends who want some kind of cosmetic surgery. One wants her breasts done, one wants her ears pinned back and the third girl wants them hitched up when she's about thirty. Now I'm not surprised about girl number three she would want unnecessary plastic surgery since she's obsessed with her own image. I didn't expect the other two to want something so intrusive and weird done to them though. Then yesterday someone else told me that they intended to get collagen in their lips and botox stuck in their forehead. What the hell is wrong with these people?

Now I admit I kind of like the idea of botox but Britt Ekland, the goddess of cosmetic surgery, says you shouldn't have anything stuck in to your body. Plus I'm more interested to see how I age naturally.

So instead of demanding to know your moral take on all this I just want to know if anyone here's considered artificial body enhancement seriously and what they'd have done?

pointless and uncalled for

09:01 / 08.11.02

Considering tattoos but that's about it.

jUne, a sunshiny month

09:09 / 08.11.02

tattoos and piercing were done but i don't feel it like a "correction" or something...
i hate my nose but it's 30 years (nearly) that i live with, so it's ok.
and i'll be glad if i could x2 my little little little weight, too (i'm so skinny that you could see through my body)... but i don't have or had any plans ot change god's work. just kidding. no, i don't know, i feel it "like this" and that's all. i dunno.

10:23 / 08.11.02

No, never thought of it but I doubt a lot of blokes have. We haven't reached that weirdo state, common in SF books (anyone remmber Otto Sump from Judge Dredd?) where this is a normal thing to do. Is it different any where else in the world - for guys, I mean?

The thought of it makes me **s-s-s-shudder**, literally, just the thought of it and I get a cold pang in my chest.

I've never thought of it but then I'm lucky in that I've never had any major problems with my body image, apart from hating my fucking glasses, but if I was that arsed I'd get contact lenses, I guess.

Interesting comparsion between tattos and piercings - it reminds me of the contrast between anti-depresseants and illegal drugs. One is subcultural acceptable, the other not so. You could argue that piercings are less invasive, but is having a stud rammed through your cock less invasive than a nose job?

The thing about it that makes me shudder is, I think that is seems so dangerous in the long term. Your body is a ever-changing process and cosemetic surgical intervention seems to flow in the opposite direction somehow. Silcon breasts have caused a lot of women enormous problems etc etc. I think our bodies are the ground of our sense of self in a way we tend to discount, and they don't take lightly to intervention, thus we have never had the SF dream of pop in nip and tucks alluded to above.

Cliff and Ferry Street

12:53 / 10.11.02

I really like the idea of skin-repressing. That isn't a real word, I made it up. What I mean is something like a tattoo, but instead of colour there is texture. What a reverse relief is to a painting, basically. I don't know if this can actually be done, but it's something I'd consider getting. Because it would look cool, is why.

16:11 / 10.11.02

Like scarification, you mean? I have no problem witht that, but bizarrely I don't think I'd ever contemplate plastic surgery unless I had facial burns or something like that.

I'm too squeamish to think about plastic surgery in relation to actual bodies, though I can just about cope with it as a concept. I saw a programme about it - about face-lifts and collagen implants and it was disgusting - I kept having to hide behind a cushion.

But - if people are willing to take any risks involved in the surgery and to pay for it (in cases where it's not needed for reconstructive purposes of course, and in cases where it doesn't relate to transgender people or perhaps to body dysmorphia) then I can't see why they shouldn't... probably needs to be a bit more tightly regulated than it is at the moment though.

But having said that I wouldn't have any done unless it was in extremis, dissatisfaction with one's appearance can be bloody powerful and appearance, especially wrt older women, can affect things like career and so on. Which is obviously totally wrong, but what with endless media pressure to look like the magazine cover girls for as long as possible and then to be consigned to the 'old trout' bin and keep quiet about it... grrr... rant... read somewhere that they'd airbrushed Christina Aguilera on the Rolling Stone cover to make her look thinner...

Thank God everyone expects academics to look lived-in.

17:56 / 10.11.02

I have to shoot off to the library to work at the moment... but there's a REALLY good essay by HG Wells called "The Limits of Individual Plasticity". It led him to write Island of Dr Moreau, but I found a lot of resonance with body-modification and plastic surgery in what he was writing, two concepts that weren't really very widespread back then. He does mention the ancient technique of recreating lost noses (ancient as in 2-3000 year old; people who had lost their nose through battle or accident COULD have another constructed - you cut a nose shape flap of skin from the forehead, pull it down, and use bamboo to form nostrils and shape it. Eventually, the forehead heals over, and the skin heals into place. Et voila. New nose - Babylonian plastic surgery stylee). And when I've read it again in detail for my dissertation, it might throw up some interesting things. (If that's not too HeadShoppy for a Conversation post).

Cliff and Ferry Street

22:48 / 10.11.02

Like scarification, you mean? --Kit-Cat Club

No. Scartissue looks like... well, scartissue. I'd like the skin to look essentially the same all over, but have something permanently pressed in. Like you might be able to do to a piece of leather.

I'm almost certain there is no way to do this to living skin, though.

10:41 / 11.11.02

Like blind tooling, you mean? That would be cool, but yes, I can't think of a way to do it...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

12:23 / 11.11.02

Everyone's gonna assume I'm taking the piss, but I'm not. (Even though I think it's very unlikely I'd ever get my shit together to do it.)

I've always wanted antlers. Proper antlers, grafted to my skull. I'm sure it would be possible.

Antlers are ace.

And I've been saying this for about fifteen years now. I think it would be really cool. If impractical.

13:12 / 11.11.02

I've given this (plastic surgery/breast reduction) a lot of thought over the years. Not because I want to.

I am a woman of cleavage. Cleavage-laden, you might say. Most of the time, I like it/them, but my parents feel very strongly that a breast reduction operation would increase my chances of getting married. Strange, strange people, I know.

What I have discovered about breast reduction surgery is that they cut off (well, around) your nipples, make a cut in the underneath of your breast, remove some tissue, sew you up again, and then sew your nipples back on. You might have smaller breasts, but you also (a) are covered in seams, and (b) have no sensitivity in your nipples, which would bother me quite a lot. I have, of course, decided not to do this.

Apart from, as Kit-Kat said, reconstructive surgery, and gender realignment surgery, I don't understand cosmetic plastic surgery, including botox/collagen.

It says something about living in a world where you can go out and buy whatever you want. About the cult of youth and perfection. About never being happy with what you've got. About trying really hard to look like someone who may look pretty good in a photo/on screen, but you can be damned sure looks deeply strange in real life.

In my more rational moments, I say you have to live with the body you've got.

13:23 / 11.11.02

I've never really considered platic surgery. I'm usually fairly happy with the way I look and having some doctor mold some part of my body the way a child molds play dough doesn't really appeal to me.

The only thing I've seriously considered getting done is LASIK because quite frankly I'm sick of not being able to see anything without first reaching for my glasses. I'm going to wait a little longer and see what happens to the people who've had it done. I don't much feel like waking up one day and finding that my eyeballs have fallen out of my head.

Tryphena Absent

15:03 / 11.11.02

Breast reduction surgery may help your chances of getting married but if you have children then your chances of breast feeding them will be severely reduced.

15:12 / 11.11.02

I wouldn't actually do it, but breast reduction would be quite a relief for me. I am also a woman of cleavage (wonderful turn of phrase!) and sometimes it's a real pain. Gonna suffocate someone one day, I know it.... but for UK Barbefolk, there's a programme on Tuesday night at 9pm called Extreme Plastic Surgery and though it's on Channel Five, it's probably worth a look.

15:20 / 11.11.02

If I had the cash, I'd seriously think about liposculpture... And if it weren't for the long term health risks, I'd consider breast implants. Or anyway, at least a sort of desaggifying breast lift. Skin resurfacing (not sure what the technical term is - where they smooth your skin out, get rid of blemishes) and professional tooth-whitening - less extreme, but I'd certainly have those done if I had the cash.

Re. other body mods...I've got a tattoo, I've got scars. I'd really like skin engravings (again, can't remember the technical term - where they remove flesh to create a pattern), and I've always wanted like a metal weave down the skin of my arm or something. That would be exceedingly cool.

While I was getting my tattoo done, the tattooist had me flick through a book called Mod Con (I think), about extreme body modifications. Absolutely fascinating...

pointless and uncalled for

11:56 / 13.11.02

Saw parts of the Extreme Plastic Surgery last night. Very interesting program on a number of levels. It does bring into question the concept of plastic surgery beyong the stereotypical application of collagen and silicon.

What do you make of people taking body modification to the level of body conversion?

14:45 / 13.11.02

Haven't I mentioned before that I have antlers? It's no big deal having antlers added. Go for it, Stoatie. Just be careful going through doorways for a few weeks immediately afterward.

As for breast reduction, does losing weight have a significant effect on breast size? I think it often does, and it's much less drastic than detachable nipples.

15:08 / 13.11.02

The programme on extreme plastic surgery was interesting despite itself (hey! a freak and hey! another one!!). Leopard Man was different to the others in that he appears to be a real hermit, but Cat Man especially seemed to be well adjusted - for those who didn't see it, he identified pretty closely with cats, whereas Lizard Man just likes the way lizards look but thinks they're 'dumb'. I'm all for people doing what they need to feel more true to themselves, as long as it doesn't involve stomping on others, and I know how much more me I feel with my tattoos.

But the scapel work on The Enigma's jigsaw face was hard going....

15:12 / 13.11.02

Yeah, I saw some of that Extreme Plastic Surgery thing that was on last night. Whilst it was fascinating, and the guy with the horns and jigsaw patterns all over him looked cool in a comic book character kind of way, I couldn't help but feel a bit uncomfortable with how some of the people came across. None of them came across as particularly happy for a start.

There were various people who had undergone extreme body modification to make themselves look more like animals - cat bloke, cat woman, lizard boy, leopard man, etc.. they seemingly felt as if at some level they had a deep connection to that animal and had the changes made in order to be comfortable with their bodies. But to be honest, I'd never seen more un-catlike people than the two people with the cat modifications. There's people you come across who just remind you of particular animals in body posture, mannerisms, everything - and they don't need plastic surgery to do this - they just exude it.

If you were to shave your head, grow a little beard, and get identical tattoos to Stone Cold Steve Austin - this would not turn you into Stone Cold Steve Austin. Similarly, I don't think getting stripy patterns all over your body will automatically give you cat-like qualities if your a particularly graceless and un-catlike person.

Surely something like shape-shifting in the shamanic sense would be a more appropriate method of 'becoming' the animal you feel a connection to. Reclaiming your spirit animal and merging with it, adapting your behaviour on the lessons learned from communication with your totem, etc.. Going for the plastic surgery option just comes across as a quick fix easy option. If every part of your body doesn't already suggest that particular animal, then I don't think you should make it contort to it unless you've already contorted your mind and behaviour to correspond.

15:30 / 13.11.02

This is a topic that's been raised from time to time on Barbelith, most recently prompted by Grant Morrison's U-Men - people who feel they're 'mutants trapped in non-mutant bodies' - characters in 'New X-Men'.

Essentially, the weirder examples in the 'Extreme Plastic Surgery' programme seem on a continuum with transsexuals and those individuals with a strong conviction they have 'too many limbs' and want amputation so as to feel 'normal' - in that they feel 'wrong' within their bodies and desire surgery in order to rectify or alleviate those feelings.

One difference, I guess, is that transgender people have an established route whereby they can effect a gradual transition, reversible before irreversible: they can change social role, then undergo hormonal treatment, speech modification, etc. before going under the knife. It's a bit trickier to 'live as a lizard'...

Personally, I've always hated the fact that I'm an ectomorph with a burgeoning pot belly; I'd happily have liposuction on my 'love handles'. That's about it, though, I think.

Whisky Priestess

15:54 / 13.11.02

Yep, absolutely. I'd have it done when I felt I needed it, as long as I could afford it and stand the pain. When I get older I'd especially consider facelift/eyebag removal as I'm only 26 and look really bloody haggard already some days (or I could get some sleep - bit less drastic). Also I've seen my mother's bags - it's clearly a genetic thing to do with face shape and man, anything that stops that happening to me has got to be good.

I really don't have an issue with plastic surgery, generally speaking. Most people have a justifiable reason for having it done - whether it's to do with career, self esteem, correction of disfigurement, physical comfort etc. I think the cost and pain alone are often enough to weed out the dilettantes, as it were. Plus altho I don't have any tattoos/body mods at the moment that's only cos I'm saving up for when the really cool ones are developed ... I foresee a glorious day when I can have a Swiss Army Knife set of blades/useful things discreetly implanted in each hand so I'll never be without a pen/corkscrew again -a memory chip in my head, a bone-phone grafted to my ear and jaw, etc. etc. Always wanted to be a cyborg.

Something else that interested me re this thread was going to see Body Worlds: there's a body which has every kind of implant in it so you can see how they work, from titanium elbow joint to skull plate to artificial hip, and they look so much cleaner and better and more efficient (as indeed they are) than their flesh + bone equivalents - altho this could be because plastination does no-one any favours.

16:22 / 13.11.02

Prosthetic replacements in living tissue tend to look rather cruddy, especially after a year or two...

Whisky Priestess

18:26 / 13.11.02

Do they? You mean they tarnish and start corroding/get all messed up? Damn - if it's not shiny I don't want none of it ...

pointless and uncalled for

10:19 / 14.11.02

So as an extension to this already hijacked thread, would anyone consider either cosmetic, correctional or enhancment cybernetic modifications if the technology were available?

Sad geeky twit me, still play Cyberpunk RPG.

12:45 / 14.11.02

I may well be taking this too seriously but I'd debate how much they do work/ would work - you get all the idea of this cyberpunky idea type stuff, but most of the stuff at Body Worlds seemed pretty simple and functional ie. plate here, joint there. All this cyberpunk dream stuff never seems to make it to reality because it's too complex or damaging to a livng process (us). More interested in things that take us toward our body rather than away from it into a dreamworld (ie the animal surgery mentioned above or cyborg prothesis).

The Apple-Picker

14:01 / 14.11.02

Breast reduction surgery may help your chances of getting married but if you have children then your chances of breast feeding them will be severely reduced.

Are you sure this is true? I watched a program the other day in which a young woman was reduced from an E cup to a large C cup. The doctor said that in about 90% of cases, women retain the ability to breast feed. It's not like they cut your nipples off, for goodness sakes. And they're plastic surgeons. They don't want to make you look like the bride of Frankenstein. Though there will be scars of course, scars can also be minimized or done away with altogether with plastic surgery later.

My mother has been pushing for quite a long while for me to get surgery, even implying maybe that I make up a condition so that my insurance will cover it. But my back doesn't hurt; my straps haven't cut trenches; I think I owe this to my (okay, *sometimes* lax) commitment to physical health and good posture.

I imagine that for myself the benefits could be huge--most of which are social, some are financial. But I'm also worried about getting rid of something that has been this big part of my body, and therefore part of my identity. For all the problems I believe these body parts have caused me, I can't imagine *not* having those problems.

I think the biggest thing keeping me from it, though, is the general anesthesia. The last surgery I had, oral surgery, I woke up in the middle of it but couldn't move or speak or do anything to indicate that I was awake. Shit, yo. That was terrifying and painful.

Oh, also, to address Aussie's question: Yes, losing or gaining weight can affect breast size, but in my experience and in the experience of other women I have known, you have to lose or gain a real substantial amount of weight to change breast size. Five pounds, ten pounds--that just ain't gonna cut it. Also, some women may have no desire to lose any weight at all--except for the weight that's on their chests.

14:37 / 14.11.02

Having had corrective surgery on my hand for a genetic defect, I am pro-surgery for medical reasons. Though not life threatening in the slightest, the surgery means I have a hand that works as opposed to one that wouldn't. However, having been through anaesthetic and hospitals, I would never ever go there if I didn't have to. Each time I go now it is a bit of struggle. Anaesthetic is truely nasty stuff.

On a purely comestic level, I prefer the way natural bodies look (a phobia of needles also helps with this). Antlers sound cool but what if you want to take them off?

14:47 / 14.11.02

A collection of detachable heads a la Worzel Gummidge.

14:53 / 14.11.02

Or Kryten.

18:43 / 14.11.02

I want fangs. It's oh-so-goth of me, I know, but I do. I told my mom when I was twelve "I want fangs when I'm older." She was more concerned about how my wedding photos would look than anything. Seriously.
I know you can get some very realistic temporary ones, but that just doesn't cut it for me. I want them to be permanent.
I'd also like to have breast implants. Not so much for size, but shape. I want them to be rounder and fuller. I don't see my breasts as being attractive in their current state, and as a result, I'm very self conscious about them.
With the high costs of plastic surgery, though, I doubt I will EVER be able to get it done.

Tryphena Absent

12:12 / 15.11.02

I was watching a programme about surgery and they said that while implants won't necessarily inhibit breast feeding it's different for breast reduction. They cut a lot of your natural breast tissue out and if you want to go a lot smaller that can mean that you don't produce milk anymore.

12:26 / 15.11.02

would anyone consider either cosmetic, correctional or enhancment cybernetic modifications if the technology were available?

On the subject of this, I love the fact that the worlds first cyborg is a bloke called Kevin who lives in Reading. Something about that appeals to me, it's like something from early 2000AD.

Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo

07:26 / 16.11.02

I am thinking that I could do with a full body transplant. I would imagine that once you can put your brain in someone else's bodies, a lot of old, vain baby boomers would borrow even more money to get to do it all again.

But it's 3:30 in the morning and I need sleep.

17:32 / 29.03.04

I have had a breast reduction and it is the best thing I could have done. Not only do I have more confidence when I wear a low cut shirt, or any shirt for that matter, it physically feels much better. I no longer have to wear threee sports bras when I run and I can sleep on my stomach without waking up with lower back pains. Furthermore, I am a small person and carrying around 36DDs were not my idea of a good time!

And to the comment that you will no longer have feeling in your nipples, you couldn't be more wrong. The sensations in my nipples have been heightened quite a lot and my boyfriend and I enjoy it. It is also a fact that some women are unable to breast feed whether or not they have any type of breast surgery, and those are the women who typically will not be able to breast feed after a reduction.

I cannot say that I would participate in altering any other parts of my physical exterior; however, I can say that if anyone is contemplating a breast reduction, I say go for it.

P.S. The scars will go away with vitamin E cream.

17:52 / 29.03.04

Starletscarlet, who told you that? The scars won't 'go away' with vitamin E cream, and there will always be some scarring there. Vitamin E cream helps scar tissue, but it doesn't make scars go away. Not surgery scars, not stretch marks, not acne scars, not anything. Sorry.

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