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The rise and fall of homosexuality

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08:01 / 12.07.01

quote:Originally posted by Brenden Simpson:
Gosh, I'm glad you caught that one. I wasn't sure what I meant by anything that I said.

Oh, grow the fuck up. If you feel someone is misinterpreting your statements, try to explain why in an intelligent manner rather than responding with playground sarcasm.

quote:What a load of BS. Those states made slavery illegal as an economic action against the states which were not industralizing as quickly as they, and thus still utilized the larger portion of slaves. It was hardly an effort to liberate the black people, even if in the long haul it was a factor in it. Abe Lincoln was not the freedom-loving President that history texts make him out to be.

While I'm not an American, I do know that the civil war did not revolve solely around the issue of slavery. In fact, if we read our history, slavery was a very small portion of the larger issue which loomed over head. It's just easier for reasons of national unity and historical simplicity for the unwashed masses that it is all attributed to slavery.

You've completely missed the point of what Frances was saying: this isn't a discussion of the motives behind the abolition of a slavery. Frances' example, as I understand it, was an example of how legislation can be a necessary step forward towards achieving equality.

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Mr Rolly Eyes ]

08:39 / 12.07.01

Oh, grow the fuck up.

I stopped reading after you said that. If you had a point, I'm afraid that I'm not liable to respond to it.

08:49 / 12.07.01

quote:Originally posted by Brenden Simpson:
If you had a point, I'm afraid that I'm not liable to respond to it.

Well, at least you're consistent.

11:39 / 12.07.01

I would love to continue this juvenile pissing contest, but I think it will be better for all of us if we all just move on...

*long pause*

...jackass.

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:52 / 12.07.01

Okay Brenden: pay no attention to the man rolling his eyes behind the curtain, and let's get back to the question at hand.

Frances used the abolition of slavery as an example of how legislation can play a major role in bringing about equality. Your response so far has been to question only the motives, not the effect of that legislation. Given that this presumably means you wouldn't contest that effect, would you not agree that legislation might also play a progressive role where the issue of sexuality is concerned?

13:48 / 12.07.01

Of course.

However, I now ask... How does such legislation have a chance in hell of passing into law if there is a mere trifling of public support? Representatives are more likely to listen to the louder, more conservative members of their voting block if they want to be re-elected and homophobia is far more rampant than the optimists will admit.

Regrettable Juvenilia

13:58 / 12.07.01

But that's not what 'a life to the World' was saying: hir argument seems to be that legislation that "forces" people to accept homosexuality is currently being enforced, and that this will increase intolerance, homophobia and resentment, and so presumably is a bad idea. That's quite different from discussing how hard the struggle to get such legislation passed will be.

Your earlier post seemed to imply that Frances was wrong to read into your posts the idea that we shouldn't all be at the very least in support of such legislation, if not actively fighting for its existence. But this is definitely the argument put forward in this thread, and you must see how what you're saying could be interpreted as belonging to that camp.

15:19 / 12.07.01

Frankly I don't give a damn if the rest of the world accepts or likes us as long as we are protected in law. Then the fuckers will just have to get used to it. I thank you.

Everything I've said thus far was originally generated by those comments, made by Tom Coates, not the original poster or their seemingly absurd idea that somehow people are being forced to accept homosexuals as equals.

I am more interested to hear how the struggle to get such legislation enacted will go. In other words...

...I'm hijacking the thread.

Put your hands in the air and tell me "how such legislation has a chance in hell of passing into law if there is a mere trifling of public support?"

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:36 / 12.07.01

Legislation which the public does not support gets passed all the time. Even if the public feel so strongly about it that they vote out the people who passed the laws in question, there's no guarantee that the people who then come into power will revoke those laws...

15:51 / 12.07.01

True, but this brand of legislation would require public support to be pushed through by the representatives. It's a hotly contested subject and wouldn't go unnoticed, unlike the legislation which is passed without anyone caring for more than five minutes.

If it's risky, and they don't have a fairly broad support on the issue, most representatives aren't liable to stick their necks out for gay rights.

Scrubb is on a downward spiral

17:29 / 12.07.01

No, most won't. But some do. As an example: in Britain, the lowering of the age of consent for gay men from 21 to 16. Not popular, widely publicised and it took a long time coming, but it happened.

Also: repealing section 28 (a clause in British law preventing local education authorities from "promoting" homosexuality in schools). The clause was repealed in Scotland despite a vociferous campaign to keep it by Stagecoach bad man boss, Brian Souter. Although the clause still hasn't been repealed in the rest of Britain, it's not for want of trying - it's only been in the House of Lords where it's been stamped on by geriatric bigots in wigs.

(NB. That wasn't meant to be a glorious pro-Labour rant, merely an example)

Point being - yes, it's unusual for politicians to "stick their necks out" in the face of massive public disapproval. But it's not impossible.

Ganesh

18:00 / 12.07.01

And, as I've said, the various Section 28 opinion polls carried out in Scotland showed that the anti-repeal views were mainly held by over-55s; younger people were much more tolerant of homosexuality in general. Relatively few people were fully cognisant with the implications and issues around Section 28 - so, in that sense, one could say the campaign had a 'mere trifling of support' - but the clause was successfully repealed.

As that particular generation dies off (and the House of Lords is replaced/scrapped), I suspect it'll become easier to get anti-discrimination legislation passed.

Frances Farmer

18:25 / 12.07.01

Ganesh :

And,

the sooner work is done to advance public conciousness on the issue, the more aptly and healthily these ideas will be embraced once the obstacles have eroded. Essentially, we're looking at an inevitability - and putting in the effort now can only ease the transition.

Brenden :

I would've addressed your response, but I really feel that other individuals in the forum have already expressed anything I would've said myself.

Aside from this :

Yeah, it's raining. Piss and vinegar.

Ganesh

19:27 / 12.07.01

And men. Hallelujah.

15:27 / 13.07.01

That's what I thought, Frances.

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