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The Hierarchies or Primacies of Reference Tools - wprt Internet sources and librarianship.

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:59 / 28.10.02
Smell is the most powerful trigger to the memory there
is. A certain flower or a, a whiff of smoke can bring up experiences...
long forgotten. Books smell. Musty and, and, and, and rich. The
knowledge gained from a computer, is, uh, it... it has no, no texture,
no, no context. It's, it's there and then it's gone. If it's to last,
then, then the getting of knowledge should be, uh, tangible, it should
be, um... smelly.


Or, alternatively,

Some examples of the effect Internet Lies have on everyday lives:

In January 2001, an Iron Maiden fansite posted the address of an upcoming gig as the NEC Birmingham, rather than the Wembley Arena in London. The mistake remained on the site undetected and uncorrected. On the night of the gig, several thousand Maiden-Heads descend upon the fragile local transport system in and around the area of the NEC. Emergency service records for the night in question shows that the increase in traffic congestion led to slower ambulance response times, and to two deaths. One of these was from a road traffic accident, no doubt caused by the unexpectedly high traffic volumes, all caused by a lie on a website.


Both of which put me in mind of a couple of things that have cropped up on Barbelith recently. First, the Asteron thread. In this thread, a request for information on the word "Asteron" was responded to by somebody who, when the foundation of their knowledge was queried, blithely confessed to having got it from a web search on the word, and recommended Copernic, opining that it will "spare you a trip to the library".

Problem being, it clearly *won't*, because the information presented was incomplete and at times simply wrong. Of course, so might the information in the library have been. So what separates the two things? An attitude to information, perhaps? Does the easy availability of data make it more or less valuable?

Next up, the birth control thread, now useful largely as an exemplum. Before withdrawing my participation in a shrug of Miltonic (Meltonian?) despair, I responded to a keen young man's assertion that:

Same thing (infanticide) happens in India - in Whitechapel, for instance, there's an unspoken rule that you don't show Bengali families an MRI scan of a fetus if its sex can be seen. They tend to abort if it's a girl.

With a request for a little more information on the "unspoken rule". Before the source could be verified, another bright young fellow delivered, with a degree of disappointment, a set of reports on infanticide in China and India. The fact that neither of these worthy coves had twigged that Whitechapel was not actually *in* India is surprising, but only tangentially relevant. Bengalis are, after all, Bengalis, wherever they lay their hats.

However, when I pointed out (in a post now lost to futility) that the same report seemed to undermine even the contention that unborn female Bengalis were particularly at risk of being killed, it emerged that, although these texts had been presented in factual support of the aforementioned infanticidal tendencies, the proferrer had not in fact read them, and the Google search had taken ten seconds. A major philosophical difference emerges here; one man (as in our cases above) will present the quickness of the search as a justification of the presence of inaccurate or misleading information within it, and another will see the presence of inaccurate or misleading information in the presented fruits of the search as a sign that not enough time was spent searching.

This got me a-wondering. To go back to our second quote - this, I suspect was inspired by the fact that this utterly fallacious Obituary of Richie Neville that is now at the top of a Google search for "Ritchie Neville". So, a casual researcher doing a quick Google search for an article, for example, may be momentarily caught out, and a sense of unheimlichheit or similar generated, by this article. But its writer has received at least one stricken fan begging him to tell her it is not true. Which, on the bright side, he can do with pleasure. But it means that as a result of the rules governing Google, every so often a teenager with emotional problems is made to feel the same way many of us no doubt felt when we heard the first inconclusive reports on the deaths of Kurt Cobain or Baroness Young.

So, the Internet provides a wealth of information, at the same time providing no immediate means of verifying that data; one is forced to fall back on one's own abilities to determine whether a source can be "trusted".

But, at the same time, the information available through any route has the same problems - the history book I read in the library may have been written thirty years ago, before a vital piece of information on the period being described was discovered? Or, alternatively, it may have been written by a wildly doctrinaire author, whose ideas would be revealed as utterly left-field if placed in a context, but if that is the only book of theirs I have ever read...well, then.

Of course, the Internet provides this context, in the sense that a plethora of other resources are available at the same keystroke. So, is there something that makes this canon unsafe, and if so what? The ease with which it can be obtained (like monks and Latin or like matches and children - you decide)? The absence of some broader view-based index which might tell you where to start looking?

Does it matter where information lives?

Discuss.

Not too heatedly.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:35 / 28.10.02
I don't think it matters where information is stored; I think it's a matter of credulity and/or poor education in coping with information, and/or poor presentation of information.

Surely the proposition 'everything I find about subject x through Google is equally valuable and valid' is as clearly flawed as 'everything I find about subject x by looking through the eighteenth century Short Title catalogue is equally valuable and valid'? I don't really see why the internet should present as being more reliable as a source than a newspaper/magazine/teletext... do you think it does?

You can't really blame the medium for the fact the people who use it sometimes neglect to read the material, or to check the sources, or to provide their sources. It would be like blaming books for the fact that Holland and Britain by Charles Wilson has NO APPARATUS and is therefore, to all intents and purposes, completely useless to me...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:43 / 28.10.02
I don't really see why the internet should present as being more reliable as a source than a newspaper/magazine/teletext... do you think it does?

Search me.

Boom-tish! Here all week. Enjoy the veal.

I don't know - I think it is easy to confuse the medium with the message with the Internet, and thus assume that the information contained on it is somehow more democratic and "open source" than information elsewhere (negliecting, of course, the status of the Internet as primarily the preserve of the comparatively well-off). And that it is very tempti g to use the Internet to provide a veneer of knowledge - of "having the data at one's fingertips", both as polymath and as magician.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:55 / 28.10.02
it is very tempti g to use the Internet to provide a veneer of knowledge - of "having the data at one's fingertips", both as polymath and as magician.

I don't think there's anything worng with using the net to tell you stuff that you want to know about, so long as you use some discrimination when you pick your sources; I suppose the danger with the internet is that one is often swayed by the visual aspect of a site, especially when one thinks about reliability - so that someone with those l33t skillz I keep hearing about might be able to seduce people whereas I, with my lime-green and mauve geocities site, will send them reeling away convinced that I am probably about twelve and totally unreliable. And moreover the sort of peer-reviewing that you get with Google isn't exactly based on factual accuracy...

But, a bit of application - looking around the rest of the site, looking at other things on the search results to see whether they say the same sort of things, looking at the domain and so on - should at least help to situate the site somewhere. Rather like looking at introductions and conclusions, and imprints, and bibliographies, and so on... I'd be very suspicious of any piece of info which appeared to exist in a vacuum.

I don't know whether anyone really thinks that a source of information which is democratic is more likely to be *factually* correct because of that democracy. Surely not?
 
 
Pepsi Max
15:25 / 28.10.02
Well, cross-checking and discussion with reliable parties are generally considered important areas of research.

Note Ganesh vs. Fundamentalist Chsristianity.

But more subtle biases might creep in.

The internet does give people the sensation of "knowledge at your finger tips". And you can find lots of material that would be otherwise lacking.

However, this may actually give a lopsided view of what's available. For instance, I have found comparatively little on ancient Angkorian history. Is this because no one has written on this? No, it's because most of it exists in pesky books and aging hardcopy journals.

The internet is great for reference material, interviews, articles. Ideal for anthologies. Less good for novels and weighty tomes.

Has the Internet made more information available, or only left it more dilute or prone to misunderstanding?

Well, both maybe. There is undoubtedly more info available. But I think you may be talking about socialization here. When you walk into a library, particularly a specialist one, you are often met by a librarian or host or even a regular visitor. You are guided round sources. You receive advice (not always asked for). You are inducted into a reservoir of knowledge. There may be less of this on the internet.

There have been attempts to construct a "Meta-index", but like the Encyclopedists, such enterprises are inevitably partial.

There is no grand narrative, no god's eye view of knowledge. We're stuck here in the middle with you, writhing in a informatic mud pit.
 
 
Pepsi Max
15:27 / 28.10.02
[Threadrot]And whilst you've deleted your posts in the population control thread, you've made lots of references to it here. Is this a genuine thread or simply some veiled attempt at score-settling?[/Threadrot]
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:41 / 28.10.02
Well, it's a bit more complex than that...

As far as I am concerned, the thread in question is essentially of interest only as a kind of biopsy subject or manure for growing vegetables (or if you need to get from Charing Cross to Islington after the tubes have shut), because it has thrown up some very interesting questions about the use of knowledge, and in particular about the use of the *appearance* of knowledge, be that knowledge obtained from a bloke in a pub, a Google search or a book (presumably). In the other direction the Asteron thread is interesting because, much as the "Oh, my ten-second Google search contained inaccuracies?" (with the implication that it is foolish and pedantic to draw attention to faults in such hastily-assembled data), the Asteron thread, after an opening position of "heaviness" (the knowledge presented here is useful, rooted....massy, if you will), it was suddenly given levity (hey, the knowledge here is just from the Internet! Why are you wasting so much time critiquing it? What a waste of time!).

It's that *bipolarity*, on one level, that interests me. Where the data can be *wrong* but important, and then wrong and deflated, but the fault is laid clearly at the door of the person who has forced this sublimation into a weightless form, for devoting so much time and effort to sources found over the Internet. The implication being that the data is not actually there to be looked at by presenter or recipient, but is simply there to be there - to act as a signifier of knowledge rather than to impart it.

So, in essence, mirroring the act of the researcher or clerk, I am trying to pick the useful bits out of almost entirely profitless thread, but in fact I was planning to create this thread for a while. It just seemed foolish not to use such a rich and sudden seam of exmplification.

The point about the distribution of the Internet is an interesting one - it is interesting, for example, to put in a line of a song lyric and then a line of a poem and see how many responses each one gets. What are the taxonomies of Internet data?
 
 
sleazenation
15:44 / 28.10.02
an aside to this debate might bew screen quality -

While i can get some very worty and weighty novels via the guttenberg project - i'm not going to toast my eyes by reading them from a cathoe ray tube display... Thus despite the amount of time i spend sat infront of the screen i am quite disinclined to read longer documents on screen - and printing out can quickly kill many trees.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:54 / 28.10.02
I'm afraid that all I have are rather boring comments.

First, with any information source, it is best practice to reference the source. Most people do that. Second, and this is a judgement call, one should cross reference contentious information if possible. The degree of cross referencing will depend on one's confidence in the source, as well as the predicted opposition to the information.

The internet provides a unique store of information in terms of the relative ease of publication and access - once connected. This makes finding information quicker and easier, but also allows replication of misinformation. It is something to watch for when verifying something. In essence, using the internet isn't all that different to using a library.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:06 / 28.10.02
Where the data can be *wrong* but important, and then wrong and deflated, but the fault is laid clearly at the door of the person who has forced this sublimation into a weightless form, for devoting so much time and effort to sources found over the Internet. - Haus

Its an interesting attitude, I suppose. I have no problem in dismissing it. Data is data. I don't see why the medium used to retrieve it should make very much difference to the level of confidence one demands of it. The internet makes it easy to be lazy, but that doesn't make laziness any better for it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:43 / 28.10.02
I'm not so much interested in its defensibility (I think you're right, basically, that the position doesn't really have one) but its adoptability. You couldn't credibly say, for example, "Jesus, man - you're this worked up about something you read in the *library*?", whereas one could quite easily say, "Jesus, Man, tou're this worked up about something you read in the Sunday Sport?" Whereas possibly, perhaps because there is no real canon (You go to Google to learn about where to learn about x, but it doesn't help you to learn about x), at least outside technical assistance, perhaps. So the Internet-as-source exists ina suspension....
 
 
grant
20:34 / 28.10.02
I think maybe the etymology of the word "Internet" might point up the distinction - as much as it may resemble one, it's *not* a repository of information. It's a "place" where repositories (databases) connect with one another. It's a cross-referencing tool.
I tend not to trust things on the net that don't refer to extra-net sources: journals, magazines or institutions.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:45 / 28.10.02
Interesting, and I know what you mean...there's a sort of chain of reliability; so, bloggers, for exampe, frequently link to stories from, say, the Guardian website, which seems kosher somehow on account of being a "proper" paper in a way that Slate never seems to be. And bloggers also link to each other, creating this network of discursion where everything has an anecdotal feel to it; like watching village gossip rather than Newsnight....

But again, how do we know that the meatspace sources are reliable? Or is this just a security blanket?
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:37 / 28.10.02
Surely this is partly a product of the fact that the internet is a fairly new phenomenon. The same distrust would apply to any newly formed outlet.

I suppose the point I am pushing is a fairly conservative one - cause that's the kind of guy I am. While the internet fundamentally affects the structure and dissemination of knowledge, I think that traditional approaches to verification and "good practice" still hold. I wonder if the fact that people are ready to dispute it's reliability is that new a phenomenon?

For instance, it would sound absurd to us to call journalism as a whole into question by taking the Sunday Sport as the prime example of a newspaper. One exercises discretion. But was there a similar period of uncertainty with the advent of printing? Any historians in the house?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
22:47 / 28.10.02
I'm still here, just.

Um, no, not with the advent of printing I think - the chief problem with that was that it might make books more accessible to more people, shock horror (though this is really not my period...).

But as soon as printed matter starts getting used for polemical purposes you get a rapid multiplying of authorial standpoints, and a concomitant increase in pamphlet writers expressing the unreliability of their medium and message... I went to a very interesting seminar on this the other day, about 'cony-catcher' (swindlers and conmen) pamphlets which describe the tricks of conmen within a narrative which is itself a con (this is in the 1610s, btw).
 
 
Lurid Archive
23:54 / 28.10.02
Would you say that there are parallels to be drawn, KKC? Or is that a misleading analogy?

It would be good to ask if one might plausibly learn from the development of different media. Then we can all sit down and listen to a lecture from our very own "Starkey".
 
 
The Monkey
01:23 / 29.10.02
I think the Internet undergoes the same internal divisions that most other media has(and still does): the Internet is simply -
- highly visible, in terms of potential audience to a website...versus a book, journal or newspaper.
- less requisite organization, thus faster production of information (intelligible or not)...no editors, proofing, little specialized equipment or knowledge, relatively low input capital.
- capable of rapid update and adjustment
thus both its flaws and boons are readily available for critique, whereas one has to buy at least *two* books to even begin an assessment of the whole media.

Yet when browsing sites on the Internet, one can see the same forms of application-manipluation of media that have prior been worked upon earlier forms:
- straight opinion, reasoned or naked
- propaganda fallaciously presented as "fact," ie "yellow journalism"
- dialectic and empiricist supposition subject to peer assessment
- presentation of unanalysed (raw) data....
And the boundaries are never clear on what's what...these categories are pretty artificial judgements, more archetype than else.

On the other hand, the Internet does makes the distribution of bullshit easy: everyone with a bit of HTML can be a pundit, and a web site with an opinion is essentially a canon accepting change only from its web master(s). The Internet is also free of vetting, editing, and critique as a necessary aspect of presenting a position: while some sites have codes and systems of (peer) reviews, anyone can buy a site and set their own rules of discourse. It's as though there were a million William Randolph Hearsts, and not a few Henry Fords, all fabricating their own newspapers. As a relatively cheap (hence democratic?) media, the Internet allows the everyman to control information in a fashion prior reserved for hegemonic forces (the rich, the noble, the priests)...that is, to ramble, espouse, and pontificate as much as their heart desire.

It is my suspicion that the anecdotal, second-hand framework of most information presented on web sites further facilitates (but did not initiate) the use pseudo-logical, pseudo-empiricist structures of arguments. While padding references and abstracting quotes from contexts is old hat in academic circles, it's now an option available at great speed to any polemicist. Opinion or supposition are presented as fact, with the author deploying sufficient coding of language and argument structure to create an impression of authorative understanding (and hence factuality). This a problem seen also in the structure of newspaper, book, and TV presentation of information, even within the verbal discourse of politics and policy; the parade of experts, statistics, etc., which are all attempts to cultivate the impression of empirical certainty.
 
 
The Monkey
01:39 / 29.10.02
I think Kit-Kat's example of the earlier hand-crank polemicists is an excellent, for it conveys the confusing range of banes and blessings to readily-available media: one gets an equivalent proportion of hucksters and earnest men, and within the latter a gradient of relatively sane and viable opinions. One could look at a similar process in sophists and street criers all the way back to the Greeks and Romans (for some reason this makes me think of "Life of Brian" first, and "The Clouds" second) and before
 
 
Torquemada
02:02 / 29.10.02
One thing to note is the way printed media and net media are created. Through the rules of commerce, Printed media (even the magnum-opus that is the Sunday Sport) goes through several 'quality checks' (oh alright not the SS then). However bad or good these checks are depends on the publication, but they are there. The Internet on the other hand, is open to the world and his dog to post whatever takes their fancy, whether it be baking biscuits or children, with no media machine to filter out the good...or bad.

In a way, The Sunday Sport is an excellent/obvious example of the bias that affects nearly all journalism - the way each tabloid (and broadsheet, for that matter) has its' own agenda which will to a greater or lesser extent affect the content (which goes back to Haus's Guardian comment). I don't read any papers online (or offline) - I tend to go straight for the reuters-style feeds simply because they present straight news - no 'opinions' (giving me a seemingly-neutral source from which I can formulate my own).

Sure, there were (and still are) pamphlet writers and the like (Jolly Roger Cookbook, anyone?), but the potential percentage of readers they could reach must be infintessimal compared to the number of Net equivalents.
 
 
sleazenation
07:07 / 29.10.02
So it all boils down to editors and authenticators (experts that editors bring in when more than a passing knowledge of the subject is required)... only it doesn't really

Surely its not the fact that a site can be exclusively on the net and still be professionally produced with many editorial hands scrupulously checking the sailient facts - its the telling of those site from the misinformation sites that might equally be the product of many editors as a single editor-cum-webmonkey.

A question - would it be more efficient for chris morris to start his own website or hijack someone elses?
 
 
Pepsi Max
13:01 / 29.10.02
Sleaze> Another question. How would you know which one he'd done?
 
 
sleazenation
15:06 / 29.10.02
How indeed - often he signs his work either literally or with the signature of his style, but how much of an authenticator is that? How many classical paintings are there of uncertain authenticity?
 
  
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