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Time to die

 
 
pointless and uncalled for
12:05 / 07.02.02
Just wondering that range of opinions exist on the board regarding conditional euthenasia.

I have developed this state as my opinion for this, although it may need modification in light of arguments.

If the conditions exist that a person or animal has a short remaining
lifespan and will suffer pain/incapacity or have to be heavily sedated
during that time, then the option of death should be considered/excercised.


So what are your opinions on this.
 
 
bitchiekittie
12:11 / 07.02.02
damnit you beat me to it, bastard

not only do I agree with you, but I think that suicide, under certain circumstances, should be legally backed. under these controlled situations, it should be covered by all insurances. I dont see why a person, for whom death is imminent, should have to suffer longer simply in order to save their family from financial burdens
 
 
MJ-12
12:52 / 07.02.02
Are we talking about assisted suicide, taking someone of life support, or actually taking the relative with Alzheimers out behind the barn?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:01 / 07.02.02
I suppose the method is really up to those involved.

I was refering to making the decision to do so and whether or not to actually make that decision as opposed to the alternative of euthanasia should never be allowed.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:11 / 07.02.02
MJ-12 wasn't asking about method, WoI. He was asking whether these rules are to applied to people who themselves want to die, to people who are not in a position, either because not conscious or not compos mentis, to decide whether they want to die or not, and people who do not particularly want to die.

Not method. Subject.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:15 / 07.02.02
In which case I'll go for all inclusive.

I'll edit this to include that on the subject of people not being able to decide, we do this with animals every day with little opposition.

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: Wisdom of idiots ]
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:24 / 07.02.02
So, if somebody wants to live out their natural span of life, even though their are in pain or "incapacitated", that choice shoudl be removed from them by compulsory euthanasia? Doesn't sound all that "eu" to me....

As for animals, I think they fit fairly firmly into the "would rather not die right now" category.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
13:32 / 07.02.02
I think that you might have misread my original post.

When I said the option of death should be considered/exercised

This is not implied to mean a compulsory choice. This is to mean that the option of euthanasia should be considered and then if the results of the consideration dictate as such, exercised.

Why would you say that an animal would rather not die? I'm assuming that you're not Dr. Doolittle, correct me if I'm wrong.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
13:55 / 07.02.02
See that pit bull, WoI?

No, he doesn't look good. Probably won't last the week.

Here, take this ball peen hammer. End its life. Don't worry...you'll find it quite unable to formulate a position on whether or not it wants to die.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
14:00 / 07.02.02
Ahhhhh, I see.

So what you're saying is that because my parent's cat was unable to have some input into the decision, then they should have allowed it to die of natural causes which would have included, by vetinary diagnosis, renal failure and continued arthritic degradation, both of which would have been incredibly painful, rather than have it put down today.

Well, I'll be sure to tell them what evil people they are. Can I give them your number so that you can explain this, I'm sure you would do a far better job than I.
 
 
Haus about we all give each other a big lovely huggle?
14:21 / 07.02.02
Oh dear. Wisdom, what is required here is joined-up thinking. I was simply correcting your apprehension that animals were unable to want to live, an idea tied in I suspect to cartesian concepts of the mechanistic animal which have been out of fashion for some centuries. Your parent's dead cat, or indeed my dead grandmother, do not figure large. I do dislike the way you people always make it personal....

To return to the matter at hand - if we are arguing only for the allowed consideration of assisted death, in what way are we changing the world or the law? I can at present consider killing my great-aunt, as indeed can the doctor treating her, without any law being infringed. Either you are allowing the practice of state-sanctioned termination or you are not - saying that in certain circumstances it may be considered but not practised is to change the world not one whit. Possibly the structure of your starting premise needs to be considered.
 
 
Re-Set
14:42 / 07.02.02
The fact is animals do often choose to die. Anyone who has ever owned an aging feline who disappered into the woods knows this.

I think choosing to die, or making the choice for someone/thing else incapable of making the decision is one of the hardest choices one might ever have to make. It's too hard of a choice to be entirely wrong. It may not be right, but lessons are a part of life, and in the final analysis, those wrong will find out for themselves.

Given the population problem we don't even realize we have, and the rapid degradation of our DNA through our elimination of human natural selection, I support Euthanasia and it's forms.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
15:09 / 07.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Floats With Spider:
The fact is animals do often choose to die. Anyone who has ever owned an aging feline who disappered into the woods knows this.



Yeah. I know a couple that had two dogs from the same litter that had grown up together, and when they reached 20 and one died, the other starved herself to death. It was weird.

I naturally assumed that, given the choice, an animal will want to live. Or at least not be killed, as the pitbull in Haus' example. Maybe the line is at "being killed by something/someone else" as far as animals go.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:22 / 08.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Floats With Spider:
the rapid degradation of our DNA through our elimination of human natural selection


Could you go into a little more detail as to what you mean by this, and what the implications are for the implementing of euthanasia?
 
 
netbanshee
12:37 / 08.02.02
...is there anyone here who would position themselves on the other side of the fence...saying that any thoughts of ending one's life is a terrible, terrible thing?

I for one think that the choice should be allowed...I mean...after all, one should control their own destiny. If I want to die, I don't want or need anyone getting in my way.
 
 
Re-Set
13:30 / 08.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Flyboy:


Could you go into a little more detail as to what you mean by this, and what the implications are for the implementing of euthanasia?


I'll give it a shot, though this might deserve a thread of it's own. Either way I know I'm going to piss some people off by saying what I'm about to, so let me preface this by putting on my Devils Advocate horns and tail, ok?

The way I see things, this planet is at least three times it's maximum capacity for human beings, and is suffering for it. Why 3? Let me explain. If you look at all the warm-blooded vertebrates, we've all got roughly the same life span.

But, you've got to measure that lifespan in heartbeats, not time.

Every warm-blooded vertebrate (except humans) that dies of "old age" does so right around it's billionth heartbeat (balanced). Humans hit their billionth heartbeat at around age 25 (which is what our lifepsan used to be much closer to) Now that our average lifespan is closer to 75, and has been for a while, we have critically unbalanced a natural stasis/process. If you don't beleive me, explain the massive and accelerating extinction rates.

Once we started changing our environment to suit us (fire, medicine, clothing, structure) we slowed our own physiological changes toward the environment (evolution), while increasing our lifespan, in time and heartbeats. We also began to use technology to keep individual members of the species alive, who, without technological intervention, would otherwise expire. This is true for both injuries and sicknesses as it is for congenital birth defects. A limiting factor in this is that sick organisms that get well often trasmit an immunity into their genes.
But, think of yourself as the animal you are right now, and picture yourself in the woods with your family having to provide/protect you and your own. An asthmatic, a person in a wheelchair due to an accident, and the person with ADD, without the benefit of technology, would have a much lower chance of providing for themselves/family, and stand a higher chance of early mortality (I myself was born without sight in one eye, and may well have fit in this category). Those who die young don't often get to spread their genes into the pool, so if it is in part due to a physiological problem, those genes aren't propagated throughout the species. These days, we try to save everybody.....(if they've got the cash)

What we have done in our progress is allow for a greater number and percentage of members of our species survive and propagate, feeding weakened genes into the pool, slowed down our ability to adapt/rebuild/evolve, tied ourselves into a symbiotic relationship with technology, taken for granted the symbiotic relationship we
already had with all other life on the planet, and have generally fucked ourselves.

If, (and it's a big if) we can even bring ourselves as a species to deal with this problem, there is not a good way to do it. China is already trying by limiting the number of children allowed born to each household, but that's arguable fascist. Others have suggested voluntarily not breeding, but it's not an idea that will ever catch on, people like kids too much. And I don't even want to think about what would happen if ambulances stopped showing up and doctors started refusing treatment to sick babies. But, I'm not entirely concerned. Like lemmings, we will find a way to reduce our ranks to a more managable number. That's what plague, war, atomic bombs and tectonic shifts are for.

We all speak ideally about revolution, global changes of consciousness, and uniting to achieve a more Utopic world. Guess what kids? That party ain't big enough for all of us, and that is why I support Euthanasia and it's forms.
 
 
Re-Set
13:35 / 08.02.02
quote:Originally posted by to banshee or not to banshee...:
...is there anyone here who would position themselves on the other side of the fence...saying that any thoughts of ending one's life is a terrible, terrible thing?


Heehee, I get to be the first to argue my own post. I think the thought is terribly terrible. On a spiritual level, I think ending one's own life signifies a fundamental misunderstanding of life's purpose. But, as I mentioned earlier, people's mistakes are their own to make, and I think that spirit understands.
 
 
cusm
13:56 / 08.02.02
There's an article on the end of human evolution and its expected degration here.

As for myself, I believe that technology IS evolution, just on another level. As our technology allows us greater understanding and control over our DNA, this problem will become moot long before the degradation through natural selection has enough of an effect to be a real problem.
 
 
cusm
14:17 / 08.02.02
As for my opinion on euthenasia, I give as example my great grandmother. At 93, on morphine, in constant intense pain, fighting to breathe at all, with an advanced state of altzheimers, and having suffered like this for the past 15 years, she still clutched my hand tightly and pleaded for me to "fix her" rather than give up the ghost. She finally did, but she never gave up fighting. And this was a deeply religious Catholic woman, assured of her place in heaven even by occasional visitations from loved ones long ago passed away ready to lead her on to paradise, and still she clung to life.

Isn't that what life is all about, really? Fighting to the bitter end? Even suffering is still life. Life by its very nature doesn't want to die, even if it can't think for itself. If someone's spirit gives out and they really want to go, they'll go, there's no stopping it. They'll stop taking the meds, stop eating, stop breathing, and just stop. Who are you to make that decision for them?

As for Grandma, she finally went after she had seen the whole family, was sure everyone was ok, and we had managed to convince her that it was her time, and it was ok to go now. She died when she was damn good and ready, and not a moment before. So, I'm a little biased on the whole issue.
 
 
netbanshee
14:21 / 08.02.02
...well, it seems that many people who would position themselves to take their lives after a fairly bad go of it, don't associate a great deal of risk with it ending. Also, there aren't many people of a young age considering euthenasia...since the word itself hauls with it a sense of the journey being over and not wanting to deal with some fairly bad residuals that await. Seems when it occurs earlier, it's considered a tragedy...hence the idea of suicide not being a "positive" idea.

As far as the whole human evolution / population thing, I feel that where we may lack in genetics, we try to make up for in other ways, like the reference to technology for example. No other species has the ability to push things outside of their own systems of biological progress. And since all of the examples of overgrowth, etc. are happening from our in progress views, it's hard to say how everything will end up...it's anyone's guess...
 
 
Re-Set
14:35 / 08.02.02
quote:Originally posted by cusm:

As for myself, I believe that technology IS evolution, just on another level. As our technology allows us greater understanding and control over our DNA, this problem will become moot long before the degradation through natural selection has enough of an effect to be a real problem.


Technology may be evolving, but I don't think it is evolution. We change technology, technology changing itself is still conceptual. And I think that assuming we will know enough about the manipulation of DNA by the time degrading DNA becomes a problem is Hubris in action. First, it's already a problem, by the time we recognize it as such, and have the technology to change it accordingly, we may not have a good specimen of undamagd DNA to work with. Secondly, assume we do change it, and perhaps address the immediate issue. We may very well in our re-coding, cause another problem, that may not show up for several geneations, even more insidious than the first. That is why evolution is so important. It happens on scales and timelines far too broad for our species to view, using codes so minute and complex in their simplicity for our species to fully comprehend. But, not broad or narrow enough for us not to get our dirty little hands in. Funny, innit?
 
 
cusm
15:05 / 08.02.02
We've already cracked the genome. Its only a matter of application from this point. Recenty, Islandic scientists isolated a gene sequence responsible for long life. We've only just started on this field, but we've started. Expect results like this to continue.

More importantly, not only does our technology and accumulated data increase, the rate at which it increases itself increases. Our advancement proceeds ever more rapidly, some project parabolicly. It is not at all unreasonable to expect practical methods of gene manipulation, at least for the unborn, within a couple of lifetimes, if not a couple of decades.

I'm not worried. I just hope its fast enough to effect the living, so I might cash in my IRA one day for a rejuvination therepy
 
 
Re-Set
15:56 / 08.02.02
You're a more optimistic one than I, cusm. I fear we are all watching the unbinding of Prometheus.
 
 
Tom Coates
16:45 / 08.02.02
If we're looking for a policy on euthanasia, an argument why people should not be able to kill themselves GENERALLY should probably be investigated.

My feeling is that most people who wish to kill themselves through the course of their lives do so because:

1) They are clinically depressed - this can be eased with drug treatments and counselling.

2) They are experiencing extraordinary stress such as to make life not worth living.

3) They are experiencing physical pain such as life is not worth living.

4) They have a philosophical objection to living.


Much as we declare someone mentally unfit to care for others, we have to bea ble to declare someone medically unfit to know what's best for themselves.

So if we assume that someone with a reasonable quality of life will probably not wish to kill themselves, and that it is better to have a reasonable quality of life than it is to be dead, then there' s a clear justification for not encouraging suicide in those circumstances where we can improve someone's quality of life above a reasonable level.

However, this should also point to a policy for euthanasia. Once a patient looks to not have an 'acceptable level' of quality of life and it seems likely that treatment will not raise it above that level within an acceptable amount of time (or allowing the person concerned to have a reasonable quality of life for a reasonable amount of time AFTER treatment in the case of people for whom death is months rather than decades away), then they should be provided with the option of state-assisted suicide.

I honestly believe this would be better for people. My only qualms come with those who cannot afford to support themselves comfortably in their old age, and for whom a life with adequate state provision would be the only alternative to suicide. Pegging off the old-folks to save money doesn't seem to me to be a *particularly* good idea - unless of course the old dear WANTS it.
 
  
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