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The Horror/Filth/Black Iron Sun Tarot

 
  

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Aertho
15:52 / 13.11.02
I only recently started exploring the Tarot for its metaphysical and psychological insights.

It seems to me that most of the help you seem to be recieving is almost completely pictographic reinterpretations. That's a lot like putting the cart before the horse. Wouldn't your inverted Tarot benefit both creatively and be more interesting if the actual meanings of the Tarot cards were inverted first, and then an archetypal image was derived from that?

In that endeavor, I'm handing over my Tarot primer. Because I was not satisfied with the Tarot's esoteric descriptions, I rewrote them into even more distilled interpretations. Perhaps switching apropriate relationships of subjects and alterring verbs, you can come to a better inverted Tarot...

0. Fool
Make a decision on a whim, or spontaneous wisdom.

1. Magician
Make a decision by using one's understanding the elements available.

2. High Priestess
Harmony and spirituality in seeking awareness between micro/macrocosm unity and the self.

3. Empress
Harmony and intellectual/emotional fertility in seeking awareness between understanding and wisdom.

4. Emperor
Seek wisdom from your superego, lead yourself, and accept personal authority.

5. Hierophant
Seek wisdom from social institutions and sociological conventions, accept the authority of the community.

6. Lovers
Develop understanding of the self and “the other”, accept your personal nature of limitations and process.

7. Chariot
Develop understanding of self in social institutions and sociological conventions, accept the nature of the community's limitations and process.

8. Strength
Integrity in seeking awareness between judgement and mercy.

9. Hermit
Seek wisdom from a specialist, accept their leadership and authority.

10. Wheel of Fortune
Personal sacrifice of ego to subjective mercy.

11. Justice
Develop understanding of self in respect to a specialist's judgement, accept the specialist's nature of limitations and process.

12. Hanged Man
Personal sacrifice of ego to subjective judgement.

13. Death
Destruction of ego's emotional state of being.
Objective change!

14. Temperance
Creativity in seeking awareness between willpower and imagination.

15. Devil
Destruction of ego's intellectal state of being.
Objective change!

16. Tower
Destruction of the ego's personal and complete state of being.
Objective change!

17. Star
Emotional insight through social wisdom.

18. Moon
Emotional insight through and transcending dark emotion.
Personal introspective change!

19. Sun
Intellectual insight through social understanding.

20. Judgment
Intellectual insight through and transcending flat reason.
Personal introspective change!

21. World
Maturity in seeking awareness between imagination and reality.

I hope these can help you, or even others who don't quite catch the symmetry of the 22 paths. If I've created sacrilege by my distillations, may they smite me.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
01:06 / 14.11.02
Is the paedophile really a good representation of the 'dark side' of the Fool? I'm not entirely certain how the two relate.

The fool is an innocent, paedophile is an attacker of innocence.
 
 
FatherDog
15:25 / 14.11.02
Is that really the "dark side" of innocence, though? It seems like the dark side of the innocent, thoughtless fool should be the negative aspects of innocence/thoughtlessness; something that typifies the damage that can be done by naive and non-self-aware people.

The point of dark archetypes, I thought, was that they still fit into the archetype they are derived from (ie, the cannibal is still a hermit, albeit a twisted one, contemplating his dark desires rather than asceticism, and Rape is still a pair of people having sex, albeit with a different dynamic). It's difficult to see how the paedophile is considered a Fool archetype.
 
 
cusm
15:49 / 14.11.02
It all depends on how you are inverting the idea, or which aspect you focus on. In the Pedophile's case, its one taking advantage of the fool, that which can destroy him, rather than a misuse of the fool's condition itself. There are a lot of ways to approach it.
 
 
Saint Keggers
22:54 / 15.11.02
Dont know why but...

 
 
Sirhan Sirhan Solo
06:11 / 29.11.02
Granted, these aren't as creatively designed as Kegboy's "Cannibal," but...
I made these.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:35 / 30.11.02
Ah. So I suppose it's a bit late to tell you that I've been having a really bad feeling about this?
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
13:35 / 01.12.02
Wow. That's nice. In a grotesque and disturbing way, mind you... but that's the point.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
13:37 / 01.12.02
Not at all, mordant. While I still think it's darkly fascinating and could be a useful technique... burrowing down through shit to pan gold... I've relagated the idea to fiction for the time being. I've got my hands full with job-hunting and the Voudun Gnostic Workbook. And there's plenty of horror to deal with in the VGN without dredging up more.

But some of these designs are amazing.
 
 
cusm
19:31 / 01.12.02
Nice work, Sirhan. I especially liked The Demiurge.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:03 / 02.12.02
Yes, the designs are amazing. Don't get too carried away though, folks. I'm getting the strangest feeling that you're being watched.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
21:07 / 02.12.02
Mm. I don't really get flashes or anything, but I got the most distinct feeling of oddness when I was poking around there.

Eep.
 
 
ciarconn
23:24 / 02.12.02
I do not use the tarot, and yes, since this thread started, it's been giving me the heebie-jeebies. When I talked about this to some friends, who read the Tarot, they also reacted with a little disgust.
They reminded me about some other versions. Inside the Dungeons and Dragons RPG, there was a terro campaign called Ravenloft. TSR included the Taroka, which adapted the tarot to the D&D archetypes (it worked for me a lot better than the classical Tarot). But on a darker line, Vampire, a more acting oriented RPG, also produced their version of the Tarot, whichspun around (obviously) vampiric themes. I am outta here
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
00:16 / 03.12.02
Actually...
(geek mode on)
It was Mage, Vampire's sister game that released it's own Tarot. Although for a limited edition hardcover edition of Vampire, Neil Gaiman did some very short stories involving several trumps from a Vampire tarot. Although there is a Vampire Tarot that has a) 'orrible art and b) nothing to do with the RPG.

And Kult, a game based around the nasty bits of Gnosticisim, did a tarto deck called the Tarotica and concentrated on pervereted versions of the Seipheroth.
(/geek mode)

What, don't look at me, I used to collect RPGs.

However on the topic at hand, yeah, I'd personally be worried if the ideas expoused here didn't create disgust. That's rather part of the point. And wow, did some folks on here do some fantastic work. It's obviouslly a potentially very powerful tool. On the other hand, unstable nitroglycerin is a powerful tool as well, but it can also blow your arm off. I know I certianly don't want my arm blown off.

And yet... just musing over them while downloading the images (during which my PC crashed three times) gave me a series of brilliant ideas and broke my writer's block.

Hmmm....
 
 
--
13:03 / 03.12.02
I like my HR Giger tarot deck.
 
 
illmatic
13:30 / 03.12.02
Bice work, Sirhan and Kegboy. Made me feel very uncomfortable looking at it. I had a particulary nasty feeling about our species when I came to the Cattle Car. Whose going to brave enough to use them?

And while we're at it - could you expand on any thoughts on the difference between the Abyss and the Black Hole?

While I hope that no one is going to use this desck, I think you've made a good index of a lot of our/society's taboo's and hates. Made me feel all inspired with the barb-Magick forum, yet again.
 
 
grant
14:33 / 03.12.02
I was more curious about the difference between the Black Hole and the Collapsed Sun.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
14:40 / 03.12.02
What, don't look at me, I used to collect RPGs.

[threadrot] I can beat that. I used to collect RPGs based on movies. The Indiana Jones one is pretty pointless, but the James Bond one rocks bigtime. I played one Seamus Stock, 012, who was killed in Sri Lanka by agents of the Evil Shah. [/threadrot]

I had a series of panic attacks yesterday, starting with a disappointing test grade, passing through dealing with my creditors to Henry-Kissinger-heading-9/11-investigations and culminating in viewing this taror. I don't like it.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
14:42 / 03.12.02
It occurs to me that the Moon should be the BOTTOM LINE or the CORPORATION or somesuch. But really, I don't want to be involved.
 
 
Sirhan Sirhan Solo
04:57 / 04.12.02
Illmatic: The way I see it, the Abyss is an inversion of the Tower. The Tower, far as I can tell, represents cataclysmic change, a stripping off of dangerous ideas. The Abyss, on the other hand, represents falling into the depths of these same dangerous ideas. And speaking of which, I just might get these printed on card stock at a copy shop and give 'em a whirl sometime soon.

grant: The Black Hole is the reverse of the Star. Simple as that. I understand the similarity between a Black Hole and a Collapsed Sun, but isn't there a semantic similarity between sun and star?
 
 
grant
16:13 / 04.12.02
I'm wondering if there's a better way to illustrate the difference than "collapsing" the Sun, since the Sun is that big flaming ball in the sky, and stars are the little twinkling things beside it.
A "Supernova" might be more apt - or maybe an Ice Age or Heat Death or something. "Hydrogen Bomb" maybe?

The Hydrogen Bomb does harness the power of the Sun in some ways - a gigantic nuclear furnace, where hydrogen is turned into helium at a temperature of millions of degrees... Yo ho! It's hot!

Actually, a "Meltdown" might be even more apt. Chernobyl. Wormwood.
 
 
Aertho
17:57 / 04.12.02
Yes, there ARE similarities to the Sun and Star, in our ubiquitous scientific awareness of physics. But the Tarot and its meanings are more specific. In physics, they are both giant gas fireballs. But metaphorically, both give light in completely different environments.

The Sun's qlippothic flipside would be something that subtracts light(understanding) during the daytime(extroverted consciousness). An agressive source of "dark". I say go with Red Giant, they're absolutely huge, cold(er), and would completely change our sense of "light", becuause they're red and slow.

The Star's would be something that denies light(hope) during the nighttime(introverted consciousness). A passive absence that denies direction. I like Black Hole for this one, but I think a lot of people would automatically think of DS9's wormhole. Maybe if the image reflected that it's only a superdense black nothingness where there should be something. The only evidence of black holes are thier radio waves anyway.

I could go through the entire Qlippothic Tarot ya'll are making, but I'm at work... gotta go.
 
 
cusm
19:12 / 04.12.02
I really like the idea of nukes as the anti-sun. Too much power/knowledge leading to horrible uncontrolled destruction. Enery unchecked, the devouring chain reaction.

The Bomb

Certainly an important horror archetype for our society, isn't it?
 
 
cusm
01:39 / 06.12.02
I wonder suddenly if Disco would be an appropriate qlippothic form of Temperance/Art.
 
 
Saint Keggers
02:08 / 17.01.03
Yet another card into the shuffle...

 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
02:14 / 17.01.03
AWESOME, yet at the same time... ewwwww.




make more!



please.
 
 
cusm
02:55 / 17.01.03
Those are just ickily good, I must say. Very nice, er, good, er I mean, WELL DONE!
 
 
Saint Keggers
00:00 / 19.01.03
 
 
Devil's Avocado
10:36 / 23.01.03
hahaha
I can't believe many of you guys virtually flayed Joe, but seem ok, though admittedly somewhat uncomfortable in places, at contemplating/actually constructing a Qlippothic Tarot deck.

There are some very sensible warnings in this thread, but while the ideas are still being discussed/refined the deck builds in momentum.
This thread is scaring me :0
 
 
illmatic
11:23 / 23.01.03
Yeah, point taken, Asa, I wouldn't use it myself unless I could see a lot more in it - however, as you say there's a llot warnings etc hedged about the thread:

This essayby Linda Falario's partner, Fred Folwer has another angle on that whole issue, drawn from their own experience.

A quote:
For the record: for L and me there is not a thing satanic or evil in the darkside. Such constructs simply have no meaning in this realm. They are strictly dayside, strictly human, and for me strictly bullshit. Oh yes, the USA produced over 20,000 murders last year, countless rapes, and even more countless acts of senseless and sick brutality. How many were killed, and continue to die, in Iraq, S. Africa, Liberia, El Salvador, Guatemala, etc., etc.? I could tell you how many children were abused, that 20% plus of children in this country live in poverty, but I think my point is clear. All of this horror exists in this dayside, human world. In my view, the recognition of all this is so threatening to personality integrity that few are even willing to see it, open their eyes and hearts and minds to their own stink and meanness as a race/species of the dayside world.

They seem to be saying that their idea of the Qliptoth/Darkside is tied to all this human stuff:

"Our darkside, KG's "Nightside of Eden", are distinctly not-human (naught-human?) realms of experience, and are not tied to any conception of person or personality."

They seem to be indicating here that the Qliptoth is something other than evil, as we conceive it.

What do people think about this - maybe the whole idea of things like "The Cattle Car" card above (which made me want to throw up) is that really it's not Qlipothic at all, but US, parts of ourselves we can't face up to. I think this could lead to an interesting discussion on the nature of Evil - what is it? Where does it come from? Is a discussion like this vital to magicians or anyone trying to understand themselves?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:56 / 23.01.03
They seem to be indicating here that the Qliptoth is something other than evil, as we conceive it.

Forgive me if I'm going over old ground here, but isn't this related to what Linda F, Mishlen Linden, Nema et al have termed The Forgotten Ones, i.e. the primal survival instincts - raw hunger, fight-flight, etc. Seem to recall that there was a lot of material on them in the old Cincinnati Journal of Ceremonial Magick. Unfortunately, I've just flogged my entire collection of Journals to Ben Fernee.
 
 
illmatic
14:14 / 23.01.03
Yeah, I think my point here comes out of different definitions of what Qliptoth might mean – it seems to have been treated in this thread thus far as a collection of society’s taboo’s mapped out through contrast with the traditional tarot, while the essay linked above seems to link the concept in something more akin to atavistic urges and “inhuman” concepts beyond the dayside of personal identity. Both conceptions are no doubt different to what the old Rabbi’s conceived of through this idea (though there may be some overlap).

(But this is not to knock anyone’s work – Sirhan and Kegboy I think your images are amazing if stomach churning).

One point I feel is worth mentioning in relation is that a lot of , these images seem to rest on socially sanctioned/conditioned taboos, rather than the reality/complexity of the object of revulsion –for instance, our reaction to the paedophile might be revulsion and horror but a lot of paedophiles are damaged individuals themselves rather than outright incarnations of evil. I had a strong reaction to “The Cattle Car” but it seems to me what causes the situation depicted again isn’t evil but rather our blindness to what we’re doing as a society, the ability to objectify and ignore. I might draw a parallel with what’s been going on in Iraq, in that by depriving them of vital medicines we’ve killed tens - if not hundreds - of thousands of children. We’ll no doubt see the same attitude in action again when the bombs start falling on Baghdad and our media begins to treat it as a high-tech video game, rather than a human tradegy.

Thoughts?
 
 
cusm
17:38 / 23.01.03
One definiton of evil is a state of extreme imbalance. Another is acting only out of pure self interest, regardless of the expense of others (sociopathy). Yet another is the idea of destruction, and another is the desire to cause misery to others. Most of these are still human ideas, however. Destruction and imbalance are ideas that can be applied universally, though the rest still come from within us.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:57 / 24.01.03
Thinking about the Qlippoth. I thought Alan Moore's treatment of them in Promethea was excellent and made good sense in terms of modern Qabalah. However, those influenced by K. Grant's Typhonian writings have a different take altogether.

I would agree with Fred Fowler says in his essay:
I found, during the workings with L, that "I" was quite suddenly in a tunnel once having prepared for it, without any remembered sensation of entering.
- I found this myself in my own (albeit brief) forays into the Tunnels of Set. "Tunnels" is almost a misnomer. When Fowler talks the non-human realms of experience he's making a fair point, but from the view of creating a black sun tarot, how does one translate those non-human realms into imagery? Would this necessitate a group of intrepid psychonauts agreeing to explore KG's playpen?
 
 
cusm
16:40 / 24.01.03
I haven't seen Moore's qlippoth yet, but I've not yet been impressed by anyone's treatment of them. I've scanned KM's tunnels and Crowley's liber 231, and each seem more a twist of the concepts to the writers particular view of what darkness is more than an attempt to describe that which is not the energy of the path or sepheroth.

The black sun deck here is neat too, as an illustration of the archetypes of evil in herent in man, but are these qlippothic, really? I find I also have a hard time with this. The qlippoth are the shells of the pathways the energies of manifestation passed through. They are not inverses, nor perversions of the ideas. They are the environmental effects that were necessary to guide the energies to where they were going, and which were discarded afterwards. Perhaps a better description would be views of the abyss from the perspective of each pathway. Or, as the tarot and quaballa describes the path of manifestation through the pardadigm of man's experience, the qlippoth would be the un-man experience, that of nature. Though as man is by nature defined, nature (or the abyss) would be undefined, making this all rather difficult to describe.

Feh. I think archetypes of evil as we're working with here is probably more workable a project. Though here's an idea: Take each trump, meditate upon it, then remove that aspect from yourself and examine what is left. That may yield a good insight into the qlippoth for that trump. As one easy example, the magickian. Without him, the state is one of ignorance and superstition.
 
  

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