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The Horror/Filth/Black Iron Sun Tarot

  
  

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Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
05:20 / 28.10.02
Velvet Vandal posted soem thoughts on sort of an anti-tarot or Quilthopic tarot or what have you here in the "Sniper Thread" and the "Filth Thread" in the Comics.

Now this feeds into a line of thinking that I've been trying to work out for a while now. If you were making your own, not necessarily invirted, but anti-tarot, or Filth tarot or Abyssial tarot, or Qlipothic tarot, then what would you include? There would have to be cards that still had powerful archtypal meanings (which is why I perfer The ASSASSIAN to The SNIPER) but also had a sense of profound wrongness to them. RAPE, The CANNIBAL, The CORPSE, The PAEDOPHILE, The SERIAL KILLER, The BLACK IRON PRISON, The WOMB OF KALI, The PRIEST... Is this even an experiment worth looking at as an intllectual persuit, or is it play sillyness? Horror and revulsion are powerful tools too.

Who wants to have a whack at it with me?
 
 
Tamayyurt
05:35 / 28.10.02
For celestial bodies you could have the NEUTRON STAR or BLACK HOLE and for the microscopic realm something like THE DISEASE THE BACTERIA or THE VIRUS would be cool.

Call me short sighted but what would be the purpose of a deck like this.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
06:04 / 28.10.02
Purpose? Good question. Pure intellectual excercise or abyssial divination or meditation?

What's the purpose of any Tarot or divinitory deck? (I know two different things, but the same question applies.)

As for the NEUTRON STAR and the VIRUS? I like.
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
06:18 / 28.10.02
I treat the reversed tarot cards as the Qlippothic reverses anyway.
 
 
Pepsi Max
10:10 / 28.10.02
If you wanted to produce a 'dark' deck , then you really have to know why you're doing it. It's going to require thinking thru a lot of dark ideas and feelings.

Horror and revulsion are powerful tools

Yeah, but tools for what?

Let's go thru your reasons so far:

Pure intellectual excercise

May be worth 5 mins idle fancy. But do you really want to go thru the psychic implications of RAPE? Picturing it? Experiencing before, during and after? Are you equipped to?

abyssial divination

Question: Is this a personal thing or do you intend to use it with other people? I wouldn't what to have a divination done for me with a deck like that unless I was feeling suicidally reckless.

meditation

Best reason so far. But meditation on what? Your mortality? The rotten parts of yourself? The chaotic nature of the universe?

What's the purpose of any Tarot or divinitory deck?

Excellent question. What's your answer?
 
 
illmatic
12:03 / 28.10.02
I know I've posted a link several times before for Linda Falrio's "Shadow Tarot" produced from Kenneth Grant's Qlipothic work in "Nightside of Eden" so you could check that out.

I'm guessing but I think Grant worked from traditonal qlipothic associations and added his own thinking. This - and traditional Qabalistic thinking - has the advantage of balance ie. it incorporates all elements necessary to form a complete microcosm which all divinatory systems should aspire to ie if you've got "love" you've gotta have "hate" or whatever you concieve the oppposites to be.
How do you see this working with regard to your deck - at present it seems to be more a list of "taboos" or anti-social urges rather than a complete picture of the darkside. As Pepsi says, how and why do you envisage it working?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:57 / 28.10.02
Okay, I'm just throwing in my ignorant tuppence, but wouldn't the 'B.I.S. tarot' have a few positive cards like 'Love' or summat in similar places to 'death' and 'the tower'?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:01 / 28.10.02
Seconding Pepsi Max's concerns here.

While this is certainly an interesting exercise, it's got the potential to turn very toxic, very fast. You're collecting a Tarot hand of powerful, deep-rooted, and dangerous symbols; I hope I don't need to tell you how that could go pear-shaped.

There is a long tradition of using dodgy gods/archetypes/whatever in magick for various reasons (generally to achieve some sort of catharsis). However, this is the kind of thing that needs the utmost caution.

I'm going to hop on one of my favourite hobby-horses and re-iterate my concerns about ethics in magickal life. Look at your motivations, look at possible consequences, and don't do anything you wouldn't do in your non-magickal life.
 
 
penitentvandal
17:30 / 28.10.02
Funnily enough, I second Mordant's concerns here, Kevin.

The Qlipothic/Filth tarot was kind of a throwaway idea of mine. I considered it interesting as an intellectual exercise but I think doing it would be a very reckless thing to do. I'm not sure what value it would have in divination, unless you argued that the reversed meanings would be positive, and in that case why not use the ordinary tarot anyway? Then again, one could argue that the whole 'no hope' idea of this 'Black Iron Sun' tarot would mean that reverse meanings would not be possible. 'THIS SCULPTURE MEANS TOTAL CONTROL ONLY.' You know?

The deck might have some use in meditation but it could fuck you up severely, and I mean severely. Pepsi Max has indicated the problems you'd have just dealing with the psychic experiences of the RAPE card - do you really want to do all that and then face the horror of seeking union with the archetype of the PAEDOPHILE, and then the ASSASSIN? In my last major invocatory working I entered into the psychocosm of the assassin/serial killer in order to banish it and bring under control certain negative aspects of my psyche, but it wasn't a pleasant experience and it's certainly not for beginners.

I will admit, though, that the idea has a certain terrible, seductive glamour to it - like the bomb. And we all know how sensible that looked in retrospect, don't we?
 
 
penitentvandal
17:32 / 28.10.02
Also, given my current girlfriend's religious orientation, I feel I have to take issue with your assigning the PRIEST to the Black Iron Sun deck...
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
17:53 / 28.10.02
First of all, thanks to everyone one here who is voicing concern. It's one of the reasons I love this place is that the folks here honestly seem to care if you're about to do something stupid. Let me hit the issues one at a time here and see where we stand.

"May be worth 5 mins idle fancy. But do you really want to go thru the psychic implications of RAPE? Picturing it? Experiencing before, during and after? Are you equipped to?"

See, very good questions. Every time it has come up before, I've always dismissed it as someting to speculate on for 5 minutes or so and then bounce back to something else. As far as your other questions, you make very good points on all fronts. And the answer is probably "No" for all of those things. I'm not exactly wedding myself to this concept, mind you, it's just something that has been popping up enough in my head and the world around me, that I thought I'd explore it a bit more. I fully realize that most likely, after a bit of pondering and working with the concepts, I'll come to the conclusion that in order to bring the project to fruition would involve my going places that I REALLY don't want to go to right now.

"Question: Is this a personal thing or do you intend to use it with other people? I wouldn't what to have a divination done for me with a deck like that unless I was feeling suicidally reckless."

Oh heavens yes, personal. In point of fact I find myself wondering if a universal symbolism for the desck would even be appropriate. I mean, for it to be a deck based off the things that REALLY express the fear/shame/hate/degradation of contact with the alien, then it would probably have to be more personalized wouldn't it? And, dredging up material from your own personal abyss is dangerous medicine no matter how you look at it.

"Best reason so far. But meditation on what? Your mortality? The rotten parts of yourself? The chaotic nature of the universe?"

Yes to all counts.

"How do you see this working with regard to your deck - at present it seems to be more a list of "taboos" or anti-social urges rather than a complete picture of the darkside. As Pepsi says, how and why do you envisage it working?"

Not entirely sure to be honest. Which is why I came to you fine folks. Anyone could throw together a collection of "things that suck" and call it a deck. Not that I'd see it as any more useful for spiritual development than say "The Pop Up Book of Phobias". The key, as I see it, and I could be wrong, would in fact to have a working map of the darkside without necessarily just making an "anti-tarot". A delicate balancing act if there ever was one. And perhaps rather pointless. I'm just hoping to exhaust this train of thought that seems to be coming up a lot lately.

"Okay, I'm just throwing in my ignorant tuppence, but wouldn't the 'B.I.S. tarot' have a few positive cards like 'Love' or summat in similar places to 'death' and 'the tower'?"

A friend of mine suggests HOPE.

"While this is certainly an interesting exercise, it's got the potential to turn very toxic, very fast. You're collecting a Tarot hand of powerful, deep-rooted, and dangerous symbols; I hope I don't need to tell you how that could go pear-shaped."

It could go pear-shaped in a New York minute, Mordant. Which is why I guess at the moment, I'm happy conceptualizing it as an intellectual exercise rather than a spiritual working. Because I'm not entirely sure that I'm ready to, when it comes down to it, leap into the Abyss with nothing but a grin and a martini. And even if I am ready to, I'm not entirely sure I want to, which in the end, is a pretty good indicator I'm not ready to.

The idea of a toxic tarot is just so bloody fascinating though. At least in the conceptual stages.

"Look at your motivations, look at possible consequences, and don't do anything you wouldn't do in your non-magickal life."

I never do anything with magick, that I wouldn't be willing to do with my own two hands. Magickal ethics are too often left by the side of the road, especially by chaoites it seems.

Hopefully I'm making some sense here and not just coming off like one who wanks.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
18:16 / 28.10.02
"I'm not sure what value it would have in divination, unless you argued that the reversed meanings would be positive, and in that case why not use the ordinary tarot anyway? Then again, one could argue that the whole 'no hope' idea of this 'Black Iron Sun' tarot would mean that reverse meanings would not be possible. 'THIS SCULPTURE MEANS TOTAL CONTROL ONLY.' You know?"

Right. Divinitory-wise, it would probably work wonderfully, if your reality tunnel was that of a paranoid schizophrenic or Phillip K. Dick. And using it for divination would probably ensure that you quickly did have the mindset of a paranoid shcizophrenic. Not a healthy thing.

"In my last major invocatory working I entered into the psychocosm of the assassin/serial killer in order to banish it and bring under control certain negative aspects of my psyche, but it wasn't a pleasant experience and it's certainly not for beginners."

Agreed. I've had similar workings in the past and while they may be carthitic as hell, they do rather suck, to put it bluntly.

"I will admit, though, that the idea has a certain terrible, seductive glamour to it - like the bomb. And we all know how sensible that looked in retrospect, don't we?"

I fear that in my initial post I may have come off as a bit of a "Whhhheeee! I wanna make an evil tarot, dudes! Cause Evil is kewl and cause I like the Filth cause it has flying sperm, the Beast rawks 666!" prat. That's anything but what I was hoping to portray.

Bascily, when it comes down to it, I've got this idea. I've had this idea for a long time. Whenever I put it aside, someone else instantly brings it up and it looks all shiny and new again. It is a rather glamourous and seductive idea in that whole "I worship Nyarlathotep" sort of way. I was bascily just hoping to work a bit farther into the idea than I have in the past in the hopes of either a) purging the idea as something that while possible, is not smart at all or b) having the building block for a very powerful magickal tool farther down the road when ego anihiliation via horrific encounters with toxic archtypes sounds like a good idea. Or rather a necessary idea, since I don't think it would ever be a good idea.

(And C, I think that the BIST is slowly getting a place in a series of short stories I've been working on.)

"Also, given my current girlfriend's religious orientation, I feel I have to take issue with your assigning the PRIEST to the Black Iron Sun deck..."

It was just brainstorming. The PRIEST sort of popped in there as a sort of anti-Heirophant. However, I think, in the light of day, that it really dosen't work.

All of that said, I love this place.
 
 
cusm
18:57 / 28.10.02
First off, that link to the Shadow Tarot.

As for the working itself, I think its workable. I brought up similar ideas recently with the Shadow Archetypes thread. I see a valid approach in understanding the completeness of an archetype by study of its opposite/shadow/qlippoth etc. As one example for a useful meditation on the Rape card, what one thing would make this horror not possible? Love, and thus, the lovers.

Also, I bring up Goetic practice. One example of which is working with demons that you wish to master ot remove from your life. If one is plagued by a demon of dispair, one can do a working to bring to conscious knowing every horribly aspect of dispair and how it is affecting you, name the demon, and then banish it along with all those aspects as a means to overcome it. That is another application of this deck, which does rather ring as a goetic working of its own.

I'll note that the cards do already contain their opposites, so its not necessary to do this, but it can still be a useful example. Would you have thought of The Cult Leader as the opposite of the Heirophant archetype, or The Sniper as say, Justice without the extreme example? Its shining light in places we don't normally like to look, which can be very ugly for someone not strong enough to get through it without becomming a sociopath themselves.

So I guess this does come with the standard warning label to dark magick that this can fuck you up, so best to keep that in mind if you want to pursue it. All that aside, I think its keen. Just use a toe-line if you go jumping into the abyss so you have a way back out again.
 
 
Rev. Jesse
20:58 / 28.10.02
H.R. Giger has a wonderful “dark” deck with all sorts of little evil images. I have one but very rarely use it. It is really creepy. I may have to take it out for Halloween.

Why would you want a dark/Black Church/Filth/evil tarot deck? Well, to have power over dark/Black Church/Filth/evil stuff of course.

“Like what,” you say, “why would I want to even interact with dark powers?” Well, there are many reasons and I am sure they might be popping up in your head now. Not all of them may be ethical, mind you, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

One reason why you might want to use a dark deck would be to confront those dark forces and overcome your fear of them. Often, the best way to confront one’s fear to immerse oneself in exactly what is feared.

Another reason to use a dark deck is, of course, divination. If you need to know about the creepy underbelly of your world, or if you have been getting bad omens and need to find out when and where the shit will hit the fan, the dark deck is an excellent resource.

One final reason to use a dark deck, a rationale that will appeal even to the moralist belly-crawler in you, is for banishment purposes. Spell out in a spread, using the dark deck, the negative entity you want done away with, then change the spelling of the spread so the same cards are in a positive light for you and it’s bye-bye blues.

-Rev. Jesse
 
 
penitentvandal
11:26 / 31.10.02
Kevin, if you really are serious about this, then start work on it tonight.

What better time to create a Qlipothic anti-tarot than the day we celebrate everything decaying, horrific, and rejected?

They're even beginning the awful, depressing 'qlipothic' season of Buffy tonight on beeb2 - one episode of that should provide enough despair to power at least a dozen outer-church anti-sigils...

Do it, Kevin! Activate the Black Iron Sun!

(no, I did not make this reply just so I could come out with that last sentence. Honest...)
 
 
illmatic
14:00 / 31.10.02
That is an immensely cool line though...

wish I'd said it ......
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
08:07 / 09.11.02
The Black Iron Sun Tarot

0. Fool - The PAEDOPHILE
1. Magician - The ASSASSIAN
2. High Priestess - The WHORE
3. Empress - ABORTION
4. Emperor - The SERIAL KILLER
5. Hierophant - MANAGEMENT *
6. Lovers - RAPE
7. Chariot - The BLACK TRAIN *
8. Strength - INFECTION
9. Hermit - The CANNIBAL
10. Wheel of Fortune - The ODDS
11. Justice - The LYNCHING
12. Hanged Man - SUICIDE
13. Death - The CORPSE
14. Temperance - CASTRATION
15. Devil - The JOB *
16. Tower - The TRAP *
17. Star - BLACK HOLE
18. Moon - HOPE or FALSE HOPE
19. Sun - The IRON SUN
20. Judgement - The WOMB OF KALI
21. World - The BLACK IRON PRISON

* Looking for a better name

What do you think is this a good arrangement.

-The Lupine Avenger, Formerly known as Fenris23
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:33 / 09.11.02
How about "The Enslaved Will" instead of "the Job"? Or "Apathy"?
 
 
penitentvandal
10:00 / 09.11.02
Wow. I have the LOTR soundtrack on while I'm looking at this thread, and while I read ths list of cards what track should be playing but 'The Prophecy': a piece containing lots of scary, evil, choral music, which builds to a crescendo at the exact same time as I look thru the list...Spooky.

I think 'Enslavement' might be a good catch-all for both 'the job' and 'the enslaved will'. And I love the fact that there's an evil card in the Black Sun deck specifically for 'Management'. Would it have a picture of a leering David Brent on it?
 
 
vajramukti
14:22 / 09.11.02
correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't each regular tarot card 'reversed' encompass the 'horror' meanings possible in each one? It's not like the regular tarot is all sweetness and light.

that said, there's certain twisted t
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
19:33 / 09.11.02
How about "Human Resources" instead of Management?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:58 / 09.11.02
Good call. Management are useless; HR are actively fucking evil.
 
 
Pepsi Max
00:58 / 10.11.02
7. Chariot - The BLACK TRAIN How about BRAKE FLUID? or The CATTLE TRUCK?

16. Tower - The TRAP Well The PIT or The ABYSS would be the obvious ones.

15. Devil - The JOB The DRONE
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
07:52 / 10.11.02
5. Hierophant - HR is better but to modern, specific not iconic enough.
7. Chariot - The CATTLE TRAIN, it captures the NAZI association.
15. Devil - The LEASH, Control stuck in matriality, made into an animal.
16. Tower - The PIT, The opposite of TOWER, Tartarus rather than BABEL.

Still need a good Archtypical representation of The Anti-Hierophant.
Limited, Twisted, blah!
 
 
penitentvandal
14:55 / 10.11.02
How about the DEBUNKER?

The Hierophant searches for and masters hidden knowledge; his Black Iron Sun counterpart debunks it, reducing the wonder of creation to a few simple, hope-sapping 'facts'?

'Look. It's really quite simple. You are not a 'magician'. There is no 'magic'. You are delusional. But we can help you. We can help you be normal again...'

Brrr.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
18:29 / 10.11.02
The EXPERT he knows everything he needs to know.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
18:45 / 10.11.02
The PUNDIT...
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
19:00 / 10.11.02
NO no NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
19:03 / 10.11.02
0. Fool - The PAEDOPHILE
1. Magician - The ASSASSIAN
2. High Priestess - The WHORE
3. Empress - ABORTION
4. Emperor - The SERIAL KILLER
5. Hierophant - The PUNDIT
6. Lovers - RAPE
7. Chariot - The CATTLE TRAIN
8. Strength - INFECTION
9. Hermit - The CANNIBAL
10. Wheel of Fortune - The ODDS
11. Justice - The LYNCHING
12. Hanged Man - SUICIDE
13. Death - The CORPSE
14. Temperance - CASTRATION
15. Devil - The LEASH
16. Tower - The PIT
17. Star - BLACK HOLE
18. Moon - HOPE or FALSE HOPE
19. Sun - The IRON SUN
20. Judgement - The WOMB OF KALI
21. World - The BLACK IRON PRISON
 
 
cusm
15:49 / 11.11.02
The Emperor - The Slave? More on the position than the use/misuse of power issue. Although this idea can also be used in the Chariot as well. Rather than the one who rides to victory due to their control over forces, you are the force being controlled to do the dirty work of another. Either way, The Slave probably deserves a place in there somewhre.

I also like The Cult Leader for The Heirophant, or possibly The Demagauge, the later being a better symbol of the leader put into power from popularity, support of the brainwashed masses, rather than his inherent rightousness of self or position. Kind of like the President

Here's another thought: The Devil -> The Martyr. Selfless action taken to the extreme of self destruction. The Virtue that kills. Selflessness in the extreme, opposing the unbalanced action of self that is the evil in The Devil. Also, where The Devil is sometimes an evil symbol that can contain a good message, The Maryter is a good symbol thatcontains an evil message, for a good balance.

The Tower - I was thinking Pride, but I do like The Pit an awful lot.

The Hermit could also be The False Prophet, as a different approach.

But overall, cool stuff! This is tricky work, as the shadow of something is not necessarily its opposite, so much as that which hides beneath it.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
21:39 / 12.11.02
Obviously, tell me to piss off if you like, but I have a strong feeling that if you keep everything dark and scary, then it's not a shadow tarot, it's a spooky heavy metal tarot.

The standard tarot has, erm... "holes" in it. Pits? I can't imagine what the right word is, but I'm after "spots in it through which you see the scary shadow stuff." So if this is really going to be any kind of anti-tarot, there ought to be similar pinholes you can see the light through. Maybe the Martyr is the right idea, I'm not sure...

I don't know, I just feel like this is something you'll have to be really careful to get right, and on Barbelith I follow my first impulses regarding when to stick my nose in.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
01:35 / 13.11.02
The standard tarot has, erm... "holes" in it. Pits? I can't imagine what the right word is, but I'm after "spots in it through which you see the scary shadow stuff." So if this is really going to be any kind of anti-tarot, there ought to be similar pinholes you can see the light through. Maybe the Martyr is the right idea, I'm not sure...

Yes I understand your concern but, There are a couple of ways to look at a shadow tarot. One, you could see it as a psychological depth model. ie these are the selves, fears, desires that are repressed in normal life. Or two, you could look at this as qliphotic archtypes.

In the first case you do not need any pinholes because it is only looking at the negative things which we are addressing. Although we could still include the card "HOPE or FALSE HOPE"

For the second case one needs to understand the relationship between the sephera and paths and the qliphoth. The tarot does not have "pits" that is no qliphotic elements show up on a non-reversed card. The nature of reverse cards can be argued elsewhere. What we see in the cards we view as "bad" is the harshness of reality. When the paths are hard it is because that is something in the nature of spiritual realms is not designed entirely for our benefit or that it is a lesson that will help us grow. The qliphoth on the otherhand is the garbage and broken shells of what might have been. In other words the filth. There is nothing inherrently redeeming in the qliphoth. Except again the possibility of hope and even that is doubtful.

'THIS SCULPTURE MEANS TOTAL CONTROL ONLY.'
 
 
cusm
14:42 / 13.11.02
Just a wild thought here, but if you wanted to make a tarot of the Abyss, perhaps it would be better to avoid the paths and their qlippothic inversions altogether. The Abyss is the space between the sepheroth, and around the paths. The paths carve up the abyss into regions. What if we took each of those regions of empty space, assigned them a number or some such, and developed an Abyssal tarot from that? A different approach than any I've seen before, certainly.

Chew on that.
 
 
cusm
14:51 / 13.11.02
You'd only have 18 arcana, though, unless you include the void outside of the tree as the 19th.
 
 
FatherDog
15:35 / 13.11.02
Is the paedophile really a good representation of the 'dark side' of the Fool? I'm not entirely certain how the two relate.
 
  

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