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How are you gay?

 
  

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sleazenation
21:48 / 05.02.02
quote:Originally posted by shortfatdyke:
I didn't have a g/f when i came out as a dyke, because i felt there was more to being a dyke than sleeping with someone of the same gender.


So, the question for all the gays, straights bis, inbetweenies and don't knows out there is this: What is it that marks someone out as being gay to you?
 
 
The Natural Way
21:57 / 05.02.02
Whyfore is how are u gay private property?
 
 
pantone 292
10:04 / 06.02.02
looking like Foucault?
 
 
Tom Coates
10:15 / 06.02.02
I suppose for me it's a kind of self-labelling exercise that aligns you with people with whom you identify in terms of some elements of life-experience which extends beyond which sex you proclaim to find attractive. People who declare themselves politically gay (as was sometimes the case with lesbian feminism of the 70s) I suppose I consider no less, but 'differently' gay. Gay people who sleep with people of the opposite sex are also 'fine with me' (for what that's worth), but I think at that point one has to talk about a history or experience of being gay over time.

In terms of the other things that being gay involves other than the sex with people of your own gender, the list just keeps on going. Being 'gay' 'successfully' (again, for what that's worth) requires a certain amount of deprogramming, reacclimitisation and examination - even if it's done unconsciously. There are thoughts of resolving one's sense of masculinity or femininity, relating to or reacting against gay culture - basically the whole process of coming out is a redefining of yourself as being *something* (positively - whether that be an insurgent, a liminal spectre or a full on queen) rather than being uncomfortably sidelined from the straight world.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
10:21 / 06.02.02
ah! got here at last...wierd linky thing to private property post going on here.

sleaze - i think the question relates to all sexualities. i can spot many straight or queer folks in the street. many things mark each of us out.

much homophobia seems to stem from the uneducated believing that if you are talking about/demanding gay rights then all you're talking about is fucking, frankly. i am continually correcting people when they say 'what you do behind closed doors is none of my business'.*

i do find it difficult to explain. as a generalisation, i have found many gay men to have had what i call the 'macho gene' removed - that is, the aggression and hostility. is this born or made? again, generally speaking, i find mostly that gender roles/boundaries are less rigid in queer folk. i can spot a lesbian at 50 paces. there are obvious signs, like clothing, haircuts, but there's something else. a psychologist friend of mine said it was socialisation - spotting who i related to. she asked me how often i spot feminine lesbians, and the answer to that was 'not very often'. i think it's because i id as butch, that's what i look for. not in a 'phwoaar, she's nice' way, but perhaps not to feel alone.

can straight people spot queers? how? are the straight men who are bloody good at spotting and giving gay men abuse relating to them and not straight at all?

this reply is undoubtably as clumsy as hell. but this is something i've been considering for some time and am not particularly clear on myself.

*i would say, though, that being queer feels like a cultural thing, almost as if i belong to a different race to heterosexual people.
 
 
odd jest on horn
10:27 / 06.02.02
for me it's just whom i'd be prepared to

a) shag
and
b) check out whether we're compatible enough to spend the rest of my live with

since the people who have fulfilled a) and b) have been members of either sex, i consider myself bi. though admittedly more people i fancy are of the opposite sex (around 60% of the ones i have fancied)

but the question was "What is it that marks someone out as being gay to you?" so i digress. i would have to go with Ganesh's list for men:

quote:
Although not officially or exclusively gay, there's definitely a high Poof Quotient - as evidenced by the high proportion of shaved heads, nipple rings, "daaarling"s and willy-waving in the shower.


/me grins evilly
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:27 / 06.02.02
quote:i would say, though, that being queer feels like a cultural thing, almost as if i belong to a different race to heterosexual people.

I'm not sure that's a great notion to pursue.

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: Nick ]
 
 
Shortfatdyke
10:39 / 06.02.02
why not? i have no problem with feeling separate, most of the queers i know feel the same way.

however, whether this is a natural state or one that's come about through suffering years of prejudice, i don't know. but i do not wish to assimilate. equal, but different, perhaps.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:57 / 06.02.02
I have to say I agree with Nick - that's happening a worrying amount these days, I should check for blonde hairs - but I think it's the use of the 'separate race' analogy that sets off alarm bells.

I can easily see why assimilation is an unappealing idea though: usually when it's proposed by straight people, what it means is "be assimiliated by and into the dominant het culture, so that we no longer find you different and weird and scary". The idealist in me believes there has to be another option besides this kind of assimilation and segregation...

However since I don't want this thread to be cluttered with people who don't identify as gay kicking up a fuss, I'll bow out now.

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: Flyboy ]
 
 
odd jest on horn
10:59 / 06.02.02
those lesbian friends of mine and lesbians i know of, who have come out have surprised me when they did. every single of them. there was absolutely nothing that i had noticed in their behaviour before they came out that could have given them away. afterwards however there was. i mean kissing another girl in *that* way is a bit obvious innit? but except for that, there's still nothing that shows.

some gay guy acquaintances on the other hand, sort of started doing the "darling" thing some time before officially coming out. ("officially" meaning in most cases: everybody knew but their parents ;-) some didn't.

i find it very easy to spot a "darling" gay. others i don't, until i get hit on by them. obviously they don't have as hard a time of spotting as i do :-)

the two other people i know well who are bi, i knew were bi from the beginning. a feeling of belonging, somehow.

do bis have a special culture or a code of behaviour? haven't noticed it actually.

the "darling" and handwaving and that special tone of voice, that some gay guys use, that is a cultural thing right? i mean the people i know didn't start doing it until they started thinking about coming out publicly, but they had come out to themselves much, much sooner.

and the only lesbians i know of who have an obvious cultural thing going on are older than 35 or so.

is culture important? is it a crutch? or is it something that was always there but had been suppressed?

sorry about not using the word "culture" very precisely but i hope you get my meaning.

edited to fix a spelling error that really obfuscated one sentence

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: odd jest on horn ]

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: odd jest on horn ]
 
 
Shortfatdyke
11:06 / 06.02.02
flyboy - i am talking about an acknowedged difference rather than segregation. apologies if i haven't been very clear on this.
 
 
Mr Ed
11:10 / 06.02.02
quote:Originally posted by odd jest on horn:
do bis have a special culture or a code of behaviour? haven't noticed it actually.
[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: odd jest on horn ]


Er no, unless you count camping it up (which I find looks good on other people but makes me look like that the fat monkey that I am)

What's marks out sexuality? How you feel about your self and how your lovers feel about you. The latter is important because if you fancy the whole damn shebang then you tend to get accused of "not being serious," which is patently bollocks.
 
 
ciarconn
11:11 / 06.02.02
I had used the working definitions of homosexual a a person that has sex with one of his same.
Gay as a person that is homosexual but does not live either a male or female social role model, but a "third" different role model. One that has accepted his sexuality and doesn't hide it.
 
 
Ganesh
11:30 / 06.02.02
I'd agree with pretty much everything Tom's put forward (we're talking about "gay" the identity, after all, rather than "homosexual" the sexual orientation). "Gay" is a sort of shorthand way of coding and signalling elements of one's experience, interest, po-o-ossibly lifestyle.

I'd also agree that the exercise of labelling oneself "gay" is usually some indication that one has applied thought to one's sexuality and crystallised a conclusion of sorts. There may also be common experiences, such as 'coming out'.

"Gay" implies an attraction to the same sex (whether acted on or not) but, being primarily rooted in social rather than sexual behaviour (IMHO) isn't as 'conclusive' as "homosexual".

Good question, Sleaze.
 
 
Ganesh
11:32 / 06.02.02
Odd Jest: my list of "indicators of potential gayness" is probably specific to metropolitan gym queens of a certain age...

 
 
odd jest on horn
11:41 / 06.02.02
Ganesh, this i didn't know. language barrier i guess. thanks for clearing that up. here we don't have any such words. we have "hommi" for a homosexual man, "lesbía" for a homosexual woman, and nothing for bisexual people 'cept "bæ" = "bi" or the literally correct translation "tvíkynhneigður" = "bisexual".

then there's a whole barrage of denigrating words.

nothing that has to do with culture or such. the only thing i can think of is "hýr" which is literal translation for "gay". (ie used to mean happy-go-lucky as in "a very gay party"). unfortunately it never caught on 'cause it can also mean that one is drunk. so obviouly there was this whole barrage of tongue in cheek "jokes" that kinda ruined it. along the lines of:
"are you gay?"
"only when i drink"
blech!

sfd! does dyke mean the same thing for you as gay does for Ganesh, 'cept it's specifically for women? been wondering for a while.
 
 
Ganesh
11:43 / 06.02.02
No, "dyke" is a little more derogatory - male version would be "poof" or (American) "faggot".
 
 
Shortfatdyke
11:47 / 06.02.02
odd jest - dyke = lesbian. still used as an insult, it is commonly used by lesbians who want to reclaim it. it can sound very strong. the male equivalent is 'fag'. i came out during the queercore movement and everyone used these terms. they work for me although i know some gay people still find them offensive and cannot reclaim them.

similarly, i know bi-sexuals who would describe themselves as 'fence-sitters', again to reclaim a term in an ironic way.

[ 06-02-2002: Message edited by: shortfatdyke ]
 
 
Sauron
13:26 / 06.02.02
Sfd, would you compare the use of the word 'dyke' in lesbian culture to the word 'nigga' in black gang society?
 
 
odd jest on horn
13:40 / 06.02.02
esp. of interest to me is whether one is allowed to use it, about someone who is a self proclaimed dyke, when one is not.

i'm a bit bothered by reclamation sometimes. feel like it creates gaps that don't need to be there. us vs. them.
 
 
Naked Flame
14:28 / 06.02.02
We've gone 20 posts without mentioning the word 'gaydar', so I won't sully things by mentioning it.

Ooops.

While self-identification is obviously primary (in terms of what you look for, and therefore what happens in your life) there are plenty of situations in which that would come into conflict with other people's ideas about one's sexuality- I'm thinking particularly of bi/trans identification here, which as we've seen on recent threads just won't be tied down.

quote: Originally posted by SFD:

as a generalisation, i have found many gay men to have had what i call the 'macho gene' removed - that is, the aggression and hostility. is this born or made?


Good question, though I know several gay men who are incredibly competitive- down the gym, on the dancefloor, in conversation. As regards aggro and hostility, I would imagine that there's plenty who get enough of that from their daily lives, and like to leave it out of their private lives. That's different to the 'softness' you're talking about though, isn't it? I always used to think of that as a 'hippy thing.' I've met enough people of various genders and orientations without the 'macho gene' to make me think it's not exclusively an expression of sexuality. Know what you mean, though. I think. Anyway, apologies all for an entire para of generalisation. hoom.

hypothesis: visible queerness arises from a process of creative self-identification, whereas visible straightness arises from a process of identification through conformity. In other words, queerness is high-quality sociobiological street art in a space labelled 'Danger-UnStraight Ontological Territory!' -the blank spaces around heteronormative culture. So it's spottable because it's unusual and it's designed to clash with the institutional decor.
 
 
Robot Man Reformed
16:44 / 06.02.02
I like men, they sexually arouse me, whereas women do not; however, I find women being easier to be with, personally.

I would just never have sex with a woman, unless...She was fiiiiine. (Have met 2 attractive women who made question myself but these events are rare). So hairy chests for me, please.
 
 
Jackie Susann
19:23 / 06.02.02
quote: What is it that marks someone out as being gay to you?

He holds my gaze at the urinal.
 
 
Rage
20:52 / 06.02.02
We
are
all
bisexual
ok
 
 
odd jest on horn
09:00 / 07.02.02
interesting statement.
and not ok.
 
 
SMS
09:44 / 07.02.02
Well, it's at least as true as the statement "we are all women."

As a heterosexual, I tend to think of being gay as simply having a sexual attraction to men, strictly, and as having a sexual attraction to the same sex, informally. Part of this, I'm sure, is that I'm just not very good at determining whether one is or is not gay. The other is that I've never had to go through a process of coming out, so I think of my own sexuality not as a significant portion of who I am, but as nothing more than my sexual preference.
 
 
Rage
09:44 / 07.02.02
I've decided that everyone is natrually attracted to both genders to some extent, however small it may be. It's just that some people are more attracted to one gender than the other.
 
 
odd jest on horn
09:44 / 07.02.02
my first post was a kneejerk reaction to a blanket statement.
maybe you do have a point. but there's absolutely no way you'll ever be able to prove it. and it doesn't help with analyzis, which i thought we were doing here. if everybody is bisexual there's nothing more to do here. is there?
 
 
Rage
09:44 / 07.02.02
Nope.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:44 / 07.02.02
Rage, darling, I sleep with women and men and the rest, and believe me, I am *not* bisexual. Although I know some very lovely people who are.

I don't know what marks someone as queer to me. Lots of things. Too many different things for different situations.

And on the whole separation/assimilation thing, it would be fair to say that I am a firm believer in assimilation. But it's *us* assimilating *you* -- to queer kinky slutdom forever and ever. Amen.
 
 
SMS
09:44 / 07.02.02
Can you at least elaborate on what makes you *not* bisexual?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:44 / 07.02.02
Oo-er. Okay.

For the last six years of my life, I've identified as a dyke. This has involved participation in lots of dyke social circles, reading a lot of lesbian porn, sleeping with women (lesbian and not), etc etc etc. For about the last for years, I've identified as a 'boy', which in a BDSM context means I bottom in a so-called masuline role. For the last two years I've been having a long-term relationship with a biofag, and in the context of that relationship, I identify almost wholly as a fag. I think I am probably on the way to id'ing as a trannyfag-cum-dyke-in-chick-drag.

All of that is way more complicated than 'bisexual' describes, I feel. I don't think I have a twin sexual attraction to men and women; the wys that I am attracted to are really specific, and have lots to do with what sexual orientation and gender/fuck they themselves are. And I'm not often attracted to people who would id simply as 'male' or 'female'.

Does this explain anything?
 
 
Shortfatdyke
09:44 / 07.02.02
sauron - i know people, both gay and straight, (i.e. my mother) who will never use the word dyke, as the insult part of it is too strong for them. 'nigga' is comparable i suppose and i have heard it used in a reclaiming way. but i could never use it - because the insult part of it is too strong for me. and, as someone said on another thread about this, as a white grrl the meaning will surely always be taken the wrong way.

as for the 'everyone is bi' thing. no way! i see sexuality as similar to gender, in that there are the two extremes of straight and gay (male/female) and a big area in between - where many people would place themselves, but i know people who are totally straight, i am totally lesbian and i find it fairly insulting when people tell me i'm bi really, i just don't realise it.

edited to add that i have met some straight blokes who don't have even a smidgeon of a macho gene in them. so perhaps flame on's 'hippy gene' has something to it.

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: shortfatdyke ]
 
 
SMS
09:44 / 07.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Rosa d'Ruckus:
...Does this explain anything?


Yeah, sorta.

Given the multiple understandings of these sexulity words, I think there could be some value to a larger, less ambiguous vocabulary.
 
 
SMS
09:44 / 07.02.02
Let's see if this is a double post or not...

Yes, indeed it was.

Delete Me, Please.

[ 07-02-2002: Message edited by: SMatthewStolte ]
 
  

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