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Anyone up for an anti-religion jihad?

 
  

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Lurid Archive
17:33 / 04.11.02
I think that most of us disagree with schwantz view and regard religious tolerance as indispensible. More than that, even 112% atheists like me (I hardly ever cross myself or pray, honest) recognise the valuable role that religion can and does play.

Still, Ignatius J, you do seem to be coming close to saying that religion is the "source" of morality. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying.
 
 
Linus Dunce
18:19 / 04.11.02
OK Schwantz, what if there was no heaven and you could murder someone and there'd be no way you'd be found out? Would you do it then? One person -- you're hardly depleting the gene pool. How would you feel about it after you'd done it? Would it feel right? If not, why not? A scientific reason?

Lurid -- truth is, I don't know. If I were a moral relativist, I'd have to say, yes, the source of morality is cultural/religious. But I'm not. So I'm going to put it in my personal X-file, labelled (for convenience only) with a picture of a man with a big white beard.
 
 
schwantz
18:34 / 04.11.02
Who cares who's watching? Murder is wrong, in my book. It would feel wrong, and I have no religious beliefs. I suppose the "Golden Rule" would apply in this case. And yes, the Golden Rule has its variants in many religions, but it seems to be a pretty common-sense philosophy to me which needs no punishment (or religion) to back it up.
 
 
Jack Fear
18:48 / 04.11.02
"Common-sense"? "It would just feel wrong"? Doesn't need anything to back it up?

Why, that sounds suspiciously close to an unexamined assumption.

In fact it sounds suspiciously close to (gasp!) faith.
 
 
schwantz
18:52 / 04.11.02
Faith in humanity, maybe. Faith in the knowledge that people would not like to be murdered.

So, anyone actually want to argue for why we STILL need religion, rather than just nit-picking my semantics?
 
 
Jack Fear
18:58 / 04.11.02
...anyone actually want to argue for why we STILL need religion...

I'd say that the burden of proof lies with you to proviode a coherent argument why we don't. And I don't think you have: you've just swapped one blind-faith, unexamined belief system for another.
 
 
schwantz
19:18 / 04.11.02
First of all - swapped? I've been a nonbeliever since I can remember.

Second of all, NO I HAVEN'T. How is coming up with my own personal philosophies and belief system leading an "unexamined" life? Can't you see how that is FUNDAMENTALLY different than believing in religious doctrine?

And "burden of proof?" What the heck is that? I'm asking a question. If you don't have an answer, let someone else try. I put out all my reasons for why I think we don't have a need for religion anymore in my first post.

I'm not trying to prove that there is no god, by the way. I just DON'T CARE, and wonder why we even bother with religion anymore.

I'm also NOT saying that religion didn't serve a purpose in the past, or that NOTHING good has ever come out of religion. What I am asking is why do we STILL need religion. The best answers I've heard so far come from Illmatic:

"I'd say what religon is good for is providing a sense of coherence, celebration and meaning, which it does for millions of people. "

This is good and true, but I still wonder if religion is NECESSARY for any of that.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:27 / 04.11.02
Obviously those "millions of people" think so.

The need for religion seems to be hardwired into the species: no civilization has ever arisen that did not produce a religion.

If we abandon that--if we as a species are ready, as you seem to think, to move beyond our societal programming--then what? Have we also outgrown our hardwired needs for "coherence, celebration and meaning"? If not, then where are we to look for them?

Perhaps religion is not strictly "necessary." I'd argue that it's all the more precious, then, as a cultural perk, like art or music.
 
 
schwantz
19:36 / 04.11.02
We can find "CCM" (tm) in art, music, friendships, love. We can find it in describing the human condition. We can find it by trying to help our fellow humans. We can find it through reaching towards other planets and other life. Not to be all Star Trek, but all these things seem much more meaningful and interesting to me than arguments about 2000+-year-old books.
 
 
Jack Fear
19:41 / 04.11.02
arguments about 2000+-year-old books

This comment betrays to me a certain... misunderstanding about religion and the life of faith.

Which, frankly, doesn't help your case.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:52 / 04.11.02
Besides, the arguments are the fun parts.

Perhaps it would be best to look at how the life of faith and the life of atheism work in minor particulars.

Take killing. Schwantz has said that murder is wrong in his book independent of the law of God. Now, this could be an intuitionist position - Schwantz simply knows murder to be wrong. Which could be attacked as no less a fatih-based position.

However, he has now clarified this to say that people, in his belief, do not want to be murdered, and therefore murder is wrong. Of course, people do not want to be audited, and yet it would be a brave opponent of economics who maintained that auditors were as bad as murderers. However, we are seeing the basis of a system of ethical action founded on rights, desires, responsibilities and other, merely human concerns.

Perhaps, then, there is a question mark over how far religion can be said to stand in opposition to this system, and how much it is a socially constructed process that informs it.
 
 
schwantz
20:06 / 04.11.02
Or, is religion just a socially constructed process that has been informed BY our "system of ethical action founded on rights, desires, responsibilities and other, merely human concerns?"

I definitely think that religion and ethics have been intertwined for centuries, each informing the other. But how does religion actually provide anything other than dogma and a few anecdotes and allegories to the process of ethical growth? How can you be said to be ethical if your reasoning is based on punishment-avoidance?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:46 / 04.11.02
Well, actually, the avoidance or minimising of harm, to oneself and to others, is the basis of many consequentialist ethical systems...the difference being perhaps that religion is unashamedly metaphysical in its systemology.
 
 
Linus Dunce
22:47 / 04.11.02
Well maybe, just maybe, all that fire-and-brimstone, punishment-avoidance stuff is just one of those allegories to help people who can't be arsed to do the reading.
 
 
illmatic
08:39 / 05.11.02
"This is good and true, but I still wonder if religion is NECESSARY for any of that."

Hey Schwartz

In answer to your question, I'd say no, religon isn't necessary for all this. This is what I was trying to get at by invoking Nietchze. As I understand it one aspect of Nietchze's project is the assertion of human values and life without reliance on any "transcendent other". However, I'm not sufficiently well read up on Nietchze to feel completely comfortable quoting him etc. - I'm still waiting for someone better read to dive in.

What I ws trying to get at though was that if we're going to get involved in one of those polarised religon/science debates, science doesn't offer us this same sense of meaning and I wish some of the more arrogant scientists would get this into their heads. Some kind of assertion of values is necessary as well as just scientific method. Perhaps this is what we're getting at with scientists like Steven Rose - his Marxist beliefs tie into an assertion of a collective greater good - his "non-transcendent other" perhaps.

I think what most people in this debate are reacting though, is intolerance for others' beliefs - regardless of the inherent truth of any religon, I'm happy to give beliefs different than mine space. There's more to religon than the specific aspects that have angered you. Aren't you interested in letting these aspects thrive in a spirit ('scuse the pun) of tolerance?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:40 / 05.11.02
Frankly I'm just curious as to what this monolithich beast called 'religion' that schwantz keeps going on about consists of. I would have thought that most people here were bright enough to realise that it's nonsense to discuss even usual suspects for a debate like this such as Christianity and Islam as if they were monoliths in themselves, let alone lumping them all in as one clumsily caricatured ideology...

Still, when informed argument fails, there's always posting in capitals.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:08 / 05.11.02
Not sure I agree, Flyboy. I confess that I have assumed this debate is about Christianity, Islam and Judaism which is exclusive but justifiable, in my view. And while it may be wrong to form criticisms of these religions that are intended to apply to all adherents, I think that there is value in looking at broad trends.

Also, a couple of comments about the whole science versus religion divide. It is a little misleading to pit one against the other. The belief in a monotheistic deity is contrary to a strict adherence to the scientific method, but not in a particularly important way.

As for Dawkins, I think that there is some misunderstanding about him. He is far too opposed to religion, yes. This may be in part due to his strong defence of evolution, which seems to arouse a very strong reaction in some quarters. But it is clear on reading him that he is a man with a strong spiritual sense. The fact that he roots that sense in an awe of the natural world hardly seems to be a particularly relevant criticism. Which goes to show that even the poster boy for atheistic scientific reductionsism, has room for "religious feelings", though he would never call them such.
 
 
Seth
14:07 / 05.11.02
schwantz: You've come to the excellent realisation that morality is not always a construct of religion. The implication of that statement is that intolerance isn't a symptom of religion either... although it can be. The difficulty is illustrated perfectly by Haus' post: we cannot afford to live in a world in which we damn by association. This is the inherent problem about generalisations, whether you happen to call it *looking at broad trends* or not - they aren't always true, and they create an atmosphere in which we can allow prejudice to go unchecked.

A defense of religion is impossible without a definition of religion, as Flyboy quite rightly stated. Comparative religion is so often a trick of perspective, in which large-scale magicko-religious phenomena and structures are placed side by side as though they are equivalents, in which miscellaneous philosophies or localised heirophanies are grouped side by side, their features listed in multiple check-boxes so that the casual observer can make judgements as easily as they compare mortgage ready-reckoners. It's often a practise indulged in by scholars with no vested interest. To say this isn't to state that there are no similarities or influences shared between these ideas and belief systems, as that's blatanatly untrue. The point is that any statement about religion *in general* is nonsense. Scratch the surface of a large number - although not all - of American Christians and you'll discover that their wallets are closer to their hearts than their Bibles, and that if they were forced to chose they'd nail their colours to the mast of capitalist fundamentalism rather than their God. The disease is the same, manifest in a different host, the lines that originally connected the fundamentalism to the religion rapidly becoming blurred (do a Bible study on the attitude to unchecked wealth in scripture sometime).

We live in a multicoloured world, not a black and white world. Suppose I were to say that religion should be rejected in favour of the individual's personal experience, that everyone should discover and maintain their own disciplines with no religious framework. That's fine for the people on this site, many of whom (myself included, to an extent) are engaged in that very practise. The problem comes when you prescribe universally that everyone should be on their own spiritual path, and that having a personal experience of the sacred within a religious structure is invalid. Note that I've exposed a common misconception there: that those involved with organised religion do not have direct access to the spiritual, that they rely on the supposed myths and laws of their faith. Some people are engaged in lifeless traditionalism, that's true. Some people involved in organised religion are as spiritualy active and alive as any Phil Hine, Michael Harner or Carl Jung.

It may come as a shock to some people here, but not everyone has the time, energy or inclination to forge their own spiritual path, based purely on their own research and efforts, not subscribing necessarily to any particular religion. If it's true that we're all "hard-wired for religious/spiritual/inexplicable experience" (something that I'd be inclined to agree with: we all enter trance states, are influence by unconscious factors that are not readily explicable, we all dream, we are always defined by an unknown which is far larger than anything we can ever truly know), then there has to be a way for people to experience the sacred without having to be trailblazers. This is the primary function of religion, and it's one that often becomes lost and obscured. It's a point of access to the sacred for the vast majority of people who are not interested in specialising in the field. Some might say I'd get a better return on my investment if I saved up my capital and invested directly: I say bollocks to all that hard work and get an OEIC (well, not actually, but the principle holds true).

So if religion isn't the cause of *morality* or *immorality* (whatever that means), and doesn't necessarily intrude on people's personal experience of the *spiritual* (whatever that means), and in fact often provides an excellent access point to the *spiritual* for those who don't have the resources for taking their own approach (whatever that means), then the focus changes from the abolition of religion to the improvement of religion (whatever the fuck that means). The revision of religion. It's a process that happens all the time any way, what with all the fun synctretist movements that occur at the fringes, introducing new or lost ideas into mainstream practise, refining and removing prejudice, improving spiritual technique. I'm sorry to burst anyone's happy Gene Roddenberry bubble of anal wind, but you won't get your wish of a world free of religion. Not in your lifetime, or the lifetime of your children, or their children. You are being unrealistic. Abolition restricts freedom and options, and focuses the same fundamentalist stance right back in the direction you percieve it to come from. The result is invariably strongly agressive resistance. Or you can make dialogue, work with people and their ideas about what is sacred, show people that there are other ways, and slowly make the world a better place. Both may be unrealistic (the latter possibly only in the short term), but I'm pretty sure which one I'd rather be involved with.
 
 
Jack Fear
20:21 / 05.11.02
A believer understands doubt in a way that an unbeliever cannot understand faith.

Discuss.
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:32 / 05.11.02
expressionless: I was actually thinking of you when I said that looking at broad trends might be valuable. Isn't that what you do when you try to make the world a better place? I'm thinking of it like any body of thought and practice. For instance, one might look at capitalism and look for structural facets of it.

Doing that doesn't mean we have to take schwantz line.
 
 
Seth
21:59 / 05.11.02
The process of change in belief systems deals more with change in individual people than in the developing trends of ideas. The plan (for me, at least), is to work in community and show people that there are other ways that work. If you can influence people, they can become receptive to ideas and pass them on themselves. I see change as coming through getting your hands dirty in relationships, and if ideas differ, maintaining the relationship until some common ground is realised... rather than hitting your head against the same brick wall through being inflexible about the way you relate to different mindsets. Although I may have completely misunderstood the direction you're coming from.
 
 
schwantz
21:23 / 06.11.02
The thing is (and I may be repeating myself) that it is frustrating to take the moral relativistic position, as it requires a level of allowance and understanding that is not given by those (fundamentalists) that you are trying to coexist with.

In other words:

We, as PC Americans (and I haven't seen such an earnestly PC bunch as Barbelith since I left college), have this double standard. We have, as a basic chunk of our worldview, a live-and-let-live mentality. Fundamentalists do not have this issue. I'm just saying - is it wrong to want to fight for what you believe in? Does being a PC American disallow you from trying to push/coerce/force your values and beliefs? Do Atheists not get to advocate for their position because it may offend?

It's kind-of like the PC folks among us who SNEER at Americans overseas who can't speak the native languages, but then also campaign for bilingual classrooms in the USA. Or who fight for womens' rights in the USA, but make excuses for horrific anti-women regimes elsewhere.

I suppose there's nothing wrong with holding yourself (selves?) to a higher standard, but it seems a little inconsistent and condescending.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
21:27 / 06.11.02
Oh, it's political correctness gone mad, is it? Suddenly everything becomes clear...
 
 
Rev. Orr
21:33 / 06.11.02
Hmmm, yes. Because bilingual classrooms will obviously lead to far more Americans with a reduced number of languages at their disposal.

Frankly your argument against fundamentalism would be assisted if you weren't one yourself.
 
 
schwantz
21:34 / 06.11.02
Speaking of condescension...

Look - I don't want to slag off the PC movement. I actually think most of the goals were honorable (appreciation of different cultures, races, sexualities, etc). It's just that when you look at the world in that way, it can become paralyzing, don't you think?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:53 / 06.11.02
Please, I'm afraid I must be terribly stupid. Could you possibly give me a brief history of the PC movement, so I understand what we are talking about here? I'm afraid I have never encountered the term before.

Could you start with its founders, its founding ideologies, which of those founders first coined the term "PC", where its manifesto might be read, and where my nearest PC group might be, so I could go to them for a bit more information?

Thanks.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:18 / 06.11.02
Thats a cheap shot, Haus. Fair, perhaps. But still cheap.

schwantz: I have this feeling that your heart is in the right place but you've got yourself in a twist here. We all feel a certain amount of outrage at the extremes of fundamentalism, but as has been pointed out to you, these are not restricted to religion.

And the moral indignation you feel is aimed toward what? Creating a society where religion is persecuted? Think about it. And think about the crass generalisation behind it.

If you really have such a problem with having to be tolerant to people because you are sooooo PC, then perhaps you are on the wrong side. This has all been said to you many times over.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:20 / 06.11.02
I'm perfectly serious. What is this mysterious movement? Surely if it is so important to so many people on Barbelith, one of you could point me towards a statement from one of its leaders, or an official website?

I'm terribly confused. Is it like Anglicanism?
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:29 / 06.11.02
I know you are serious. But you could educate rather than throwing sand in his eyes.
 
 
Linus Dunce
22:53 / 06.11.02
Schwantz:

I am an atheist, but not a moral relativist.

I think religion is a good thing, but I do not agree with fundamentalism or fire-and-brimstone preachers. They are the quack doctors of the soul.

I want the world to open its eyes to prejudice, but I am not "PC."

I wouldn't dream of assuming other people on this board feel the way I do, but I'm damn sure I'm not unique on this planet.

"You're either for us or against us" may work as a political slogan, but it's not a practical way for human beings to carry on. You said yourself you've never been religious -- how then can you pronounce religion as anathema? To be honest, I don't think you've read any philosophy either, yet you regard it as being corrupted by what you call religion. This isn't personal. It's just the way I see it. Sorry.
 
 
Seth
04:43 / 07.11.02
The relativistic approach can be extremely rewarding in the face of fundamentalism. It allows you to attack a fundamentalist stance not directly, but by simply increasing the range of options available. You can engage in all kinds of subversive tactics while they clumsily hit their heads against the same brick wall. I repeat, it's not a short-term strategy, but the alternative is just a pissing contest.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:21 / 07.11.02
Could somebody PLEASE tell me what the FUCK this PC everyone keeps talking about is?

Fucking ivory-tower exclusionist academics...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:46 / 07.11.02
Political correctness is a term used, frequently by conservatives, to label those who wish to use language which is inclusive as 'Cultural Marxists' and totalitarians. I believe it to be a derogatory label used by right-wingers to avoid addressing the actual substance of inclusive politics...
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:23 / 07.11.02
In this case, schwantz seems to want it to mean "excessively liberal and tolerant, to the point where intolerant ideas themselves go unchecked". However, as far as I can tell "able to perceive that 'fundamentalism' and 'religion' are not the same thing no matter how ill-defined each concept is within the context of this thread" would be an equally good definition...
 
 
Rev. Orr
10:38 / 07.11.02
Or 'understanding what the word "jihad" actually means'.

Or 'being of the belief that replacing one oppressive monomania with another fails to help anyone'.
 
  

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