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Underground > Switchboard >

Moscow theatre hostages

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19:07 / 29.10.02

The oppressive battle in Chechnya itself, and Russia's cold military tactics set up to satisfy a traditionally rapacious state agenda might be considered an indirect cause of this kind of violence.

I'd say 'should' rather than 'might' there... and, given that the demand was for the withdrawal of Russian troops from Chechnya, not particularly indirect either; unless you think that these terrorists have some kind of brain malfunction which is the *only* explanation for their tactics.

Or further, to the economic pressures placed on Russia by Chechnya's attempt to break away without making crucial trade concessions to Russia? Or beyond that, to the treatment Chechnya received as part of the Soviet Union? As usual, this is a complicated situation.

Too right. Actually, that trade concessions thing is interesting - I was under the impression that the problem was rather Chechnya's strategic importance (routes and oil routes), its position as a black-market centre for criminal trade and the fact that the Chechen leadership wanted total independence, rather than the qualified autonomy which Russia was prepared to grant them... Have you any more info on this?

I can see the awkwardness of the position for the Russian forces; but what the hell were they doing shoving hostages onto buses when there were ambulances outside waiting for them; why were details of the appropriate antidote (if not the actual agent they used) not released to doctors; and why is the name of the agent still not being released?
There might well have been fewer casualties if better medical precautions were taken.

I also have a few problems with shooting people who have been gassed rather than taking them prisoner; even if they do have explosives attached to them.

19:08 / 29.10.02

You're right, Ray: it's a suicide tactic. It's martyrdom they're after.

And the Russian Special Forces gave it to them.

The "tactical decision" to take no prisoners, to let civilians die, and then to stonewall about it lest we "give the terrorists useful information" seems to me both inhumane and wrongheaded: the clear and present danger to innocent people should—must—override any future quote-unquote "security concerns."

Pump in the gas, yes: send in two hundred cops, yes. But right behind them send in three hundred paramedics, each outfitted with a kevlar vest, a helmet, doses of M-5050 and big fuck-off horse-needles of adrenaline. Give the cops rubber bullets: instruct the paramedics to save lives indiscriminately.

Get everyone out alive, friend and foe.

Then put the fuckers on trial and discredit them thoroughly.

If you can resolve the crisis while making an effective and unambiguous effort to minimize fatalities on both sides, you've sent two clear messages: that this kind of thing will not be tolerated in Russia, and that Russia will not become a monster to fight a monster.

By taking the moral high ground, Russia would undermine popular support for the Chechen rebellion: by denying the terrorists the martyrdom they crave, Russia would further discredit the fanatical elements of Chechen society: and all the while, it's still absolutely clear that Russia means business--that it is better-equipped, better-organized, and more confident than the Chechens (confident enough to value justice above revenge).

Nothing wins hearts and minds more effectively than doing the right thing. And it's in hearts and minds that this battle will be won, not in hard-man posturing.

19:21 / 29.10.02

Hurrah for Jack, even if he did say 'hearts and minds'. Twice.

19:48 / 29.10.02

Jack, your proposed scenario is unassailable - until you start talking about rubber bullets and trials.

I agree that a greater effort could have been made to save the lives of the hostages at the scene - although there are elements of your plan that are either no better than what happened, or would further endanger the hostages and medics. Should the medics be instructed to wait until the firefight is over, guaranteed? If so, most of the people who died from the gas would already be dead - it took less than 10 minutes to take effect, if reports are to be believed. If not, then the medics are putting themselves in harms' way, might serve to further confuse the scenario, and are forced to make life-and-death decisions about the hostages in a pressure situation. Rubber bullets, furthermore, stun but do not always incapacitate. How many chances do you want to take with suicidal explosive triggers?

And what purpose would a trial serve? To declare Russia's moral high ground in a situation that defies moral analysis? Russia's enemies would declare the proceedings to be a show trial, a farce, whereas their allies would denounce the acts of the Chechens. The rebels on trial would become martyrs anyway, and much more publicly so. Nobody's opinions would change, and "hearts and minds" would likely stay exactly where they are.

The assault on the theatre was not an act of revenge. It was a decisive end to the standoff, and it was a clearer statement on Russia's stance on terrorism than could otherwise be delivered. I say again: they saved 680 people. No rebels escaped.

There's an admirable compassion in your proposed alternate approach, and I do appreciate it. I think it's a little wishy-washy, as far as real-world tactics go, but you'd clearly prefer to err on the side of preserved life all around, whereas my concern excludes the lives of the terrorists.

Kit-Cat: Actually, the trade I'm referring to involves oil pipeline routing, rail shipping, and the operation of refineries. If the Chechens would have proposed even the simplest of trade accords, Russia would have no economic imperative in the conflict.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

20:11 / 29.10.02

I'm with Jack on this one...

Still reminds me a little too much of Waco for comfort.

As far as I can tell from the reports we've been getting, most of the Chechens were shot while unconscious. Justified by "well, they were strapped with explosives", which, I must admit, were I a soldier, is a line I'd probably take too. Which is why me becoming a soldier would be a really bad idea.

Not telling the medics what gas it was kind of gives the impression that it was something (gasp) they WEREN'T SUPPOSED TO HAVE... (oh, and that they'd rather keep that covered up than help their own people live). Which would, surely, make Russia itself a "rogue state"...

I'm still unsure. Yes, it's the devil's arithmetic. A hundred-odd dead is a lot better than seven hundred, but I'm not convinced that even that many were necessary.

Reports are now coming out (according to BBC Radio 4, anyway) that the hostages were actually treated a lot better than initial reports had suggested. Not sure whether that makes a difference, but I thought I'd bung it in.

20:29 / 29.10.02

If the Chechens would have proposed even the simplest of trade accords, Russia would have no economic imperative in the conflict.

Well, they did sign one in 1997, apparently... It seems (from what I can gather) to be one of those intractable problems: Moscow wants a finger in the pie of the energy deals made by the republics of the former USSR, especially since Western oil companies are striking deals in Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, and if Chechnya is completely independent it makes it much harder for Russia to control the legitimate and illegitimate oil trade through Chechnya - hence the refusal to let Chechnya become wholly independent, and the second incursion into Chechnya. Seems a bit unfair to castigate the Chechens for attempting to stick up for their rights in this respect...

(I mean their right to govern their own trade, not their right to foster an illegitimate trade - not that Russia minds that, I think, in anything more than form - plenty of Russian companies etc using that supply line).

20:41 / 29.10.02

Drug used in raid identified

According to this article it was something called fentanyl, an opiate as previously reported. It's effects can be countered by another drug, which was given to some of the hostages.

Note these paragraphs:

"Fentanyl was among drugs that Pennsylvania State University researchers suggested two years ago the U.S. military explore as weapons to subdue angry mobs. The Pentagon has put such research on hold, however, because of worries that it would violate the international ban on chemical weapons.

Whether Russia's use of the gas in the hostage situation would violate the treaty is unclear, since the pact allows for the use of chemical agents for law enforcement purposes. "

Um, what?????

The Return Of Rothkoid

10:05 / 30.10.02

Surely that's merely (ha!) to give provision for the use of teargas and pepper spray?

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