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Moscow theatre hostages

 
  

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:07 / 25.10.02
It's been asked in the Bali thread- would we care as much if it wasn't UK/US citizens?

Obviously not. (Not claiming any moral high-ground here for myself- I should've posted this yesterday were I to do that.)

Hundreds of people are (unless something's happened since I last saw news) being held hostage in a theatre in Moscow by Chechens. About 50 or so, with guns. (Someone on the news said "this kind of thing requires some organisation"- well, no shit, Sherlock. C'mon, it;s hard enough getting more than two people to go to the movies at the same time. Fifty. And they all remembered their guns.)

A Brit has been released. That's apparently of the utmost significance, as far as our media are concerned.

They've said they'd rather die than let the thing finish without Putin ordering a complete withdrawal from Chechnya. Which, let's face it, he ISN'T going to do. (Despite having said "the war in Chechnya is won" scant weeks ago.)

So it doesn't look too good.

That was just preamble. My main point is- (which occurred to me after Bali, and has just hit home again)- do you remember when the IRA blowing up 12 or 13 people was an atrocity? My first thought on hearing of Bali was "well, at least it was only a couple of hundred this time".

My first thought on this was "hostages? Do people still DO that?" And in a situation where about 600 people are likely to die, that is a VERY, VERY, callous thought.

The stakes have been raised. In the same way news footage of the Holocaust made the unthinkable "real", September 11th seems to have made human life cheaper. Yes, it's easy to say (as I often do) that mroe people die EVERY DAY as a result of Western foreign policy than died in the WTC... but does it FEEL the same?

Come on... the very thought of the Bali bomb should have given us all nightmares. Probably would have 18 months ago. Did it? Honestly?

The revolution may not be televised, but it looks like the apocalypse may well be. (And no, I'm not going down the lizard/prophecy route there. I'm just feeling pessimistic today.)
 
 
Slim
14:41 / 25.10.02
The hostages in Moscow don't bother me too much. I mean, in the end they're just damn dirty commies.

All kidding aside, I found your post interesting. The WTC attack shocked me for approximately 24 hours and after that I was emotionally detached from the whole thing. I agree that human life has someone been cheapened over the years. I think a part of it comes from the media. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think it used to be that the people reporting the news actually gave a damn about what they were doing. Nowadays the media just exploits worldwide events for ratings. It's turned human lives into nothing but fodder for the media to be discuss for a couple weeks and then to forget about completely.
 
 
Jack Fear
14:44 / 25.10.02
Maybe I'm wrong...

Magic Eight-Ball says: THE ODDS LOOK GOOD
 
 
bjacques
15:26 / 25.10.02
The Chechens have a chance to come out of this gracefully, but I don't think they'll take it. The should let everyone go except for a dozen of the best-fed looking Russians, and one American to acknowledge Bush's tacit approval of Putin's local "war on terrorism." Get a free ride to the border or somewhere else safe, with world media broadcasting constantly. Let everyone go when home safely.

They also score a few points against Putin, who used their foolish contribution to the war effort as yet another excuse to lay waste to Chechnya.

Ok, to be fair, Chechens are nobody's sweethearts. But they can win a bit of Russian support by not killing 600 more of them. and if the CMEPTHNKN stil lwant to die, they can go kill some Russian soldiers back home.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
18:23 / 25.10.02
This morning when I was listening to the news talk about it, I had this impulsive thought that we should just do everything that any terrorist group says. Maybe we could negotiate the details, but over all it would just be, "Hey, you're willing to die for your cause, that's good enough for us!"

I think it was the phrase, "unless they stop the war in Chechnya" that did it... I like stopping war, stopping war is cool, let's stop that war.

More seriously: It *seems* like there's more terrorism going on these days, but is that just increased media reportage plus the human tendency to insist that "things used to be better and safer a few years ago"? I wouldn't know where to look for the numbers to say one way or the other.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
02:05 / 26.10.02
Apparently Russian special forces have gone in... the deadline passed about an hour ago.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
05:44 / 26.10.02
They got 'em. No word on casualties yet, though.
 
 
Baz Auckland
00:42 / 27.10.02
50 Chechnyns and 90 Hostages dead. Approx.
30 Chechnyns and 750 Hostages alive. About.
Eek.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
04:51 / 27.10.02
About 30 Spetsnaz dead too, apparently.
 
 
Naked Flame
11:57 / 27.10.02
Latest from CNN:

some kind of 'nerve agent' was used to subdue the rebels before the troops went in. And hostages are still dying, in hospital.

Furthermore, it seems that despite evidence of a gunfight (50 rebels dead, and a 'handful' captured) none of the hostages are suffering from bullet wounds.

So, apart from the use of chemical weaponry (which we're pretty down on in the West, apparently) one wonders what went on in there.

I'm relieved that the bombs didn't go off. But I wonder at the methods used, and the human cost...

and apparently the raid was kicked off because a toddler threw an understandable tantrum and the rebels opened fire on hir. And missed. I'm sure it's a mark of my disillusionment with the media that I'm not even sure I trust that report...
 
 
deja_vroom
13:40 / 27.10.02
Obscenity. That`s what it is. Obscenity. That people will let "democratically elected" puppets take this sort of decision. That hazy interests of unknown parties are justified and supported by this system.

In the end (just like 09-11) it`s common people, workers, living their ordinary lives who get in the line of fire. I`m sick of this. I'm young and I was supposed to have hope, but I don't. All is going down the drain just like in pre-WWI and WWII times. And 30 years from now, when we watch the documentaries, when we re-read the headlines, we'll wonder "how we did that happen? How come, when all the signals were so clear, how come we let it happen again?" - just like we do now. Fucking obscenity.
 
 
Baz Auckland
02:22 / 28.10.02
Newsies now alleging 110 hostages killed with nerve gas... ...You know, there are nice places in this world. Why doesn't everyone just go to Austria and fight over it? It's a lot nicer! Why Grozny? Why don't the Russians just leave? It's not like it's going to be doing much in the next decade whether they're there or not! I guess you could ask that of a lot of places...

...on the bright side, it looks like the Sri Lankan civil war may be ending...
 
 
bio k9
06:08 / 28.10.02
New CNN Article:

"A mysterious gas used to incapacitate Chechen terrorists during a government operation to rescue hundreds of hostages here was responsible for all but one of the 117 hostage deaths, Moscow’s chief physician said on Sunday."

The article says that the gas that was used was similar to BZ, an American gas (not prohibited by the Chemical Warfare Convention) that is supposed to be great for crowd control. While the American version takes about an hour to knock out its victims, the Russian version apparently took 10 minutes. They sent that shit in on a group of young, elderly, and sick hostages. The hostages were taken from the building and dumped outside without anyone administering the antidote. Then the hostages were left sitting on buses despite the fact that over 100 ambulances were waiting outside.




Jade, just wait until you have kids.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:29 / 28.10.02
The death of these hostages is a tragedy - however, if what we've been told about the captors beginning to kill the hostages is true, then I see little other recourse for the Russians (wanting the Russias to end the Chechen war is one thing; wanting them to end it because of reprehensible action like this is quite another). Although, as stated above, there of course were many people among the hundreds of hostages that were particularly vulnerable to this gas, the use of it strikes me as the ideal (well, if it didn't kill anyone) way for situations like this to be handled - without shooting (of course, we have to overlook all the terrorists the Russians executed while sleeping, which isn't hard to do - if they were, as alleged, wired with explosives, then killing them is probably the only way to guarantee the safety of the hostages).

It's very difficult to side with the Russian governments actions here - because they're involved in such a terrible war, because their actions directly killed over a 100 people, because Putin isn't very sympathetic - but I think, given a paucity of choices, it seems they did the best they could to end this situation. Hopefully, this kind of gas weapon can be perfected or honed in the future in order to end these standoffs.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:43 / 28.10.02
...if what we've been told about the captors beginning to kill the hostages is true, then I see little other recourse for the Russians...

It's not. According to latest reports (I heard it on NPR and don't have a link, sorry) only two hostages were killed--one on the first day of the siege, and one man who went berserk some two or three hours before the raid.

The initial line--that this was spur-of-the-moment, reactive raid--is crumbling as more facts come to light: it's starting to look more and more like a planned operation.

Meaning somebody sat down and ran the numbers--collateral damage, acceptable losses, and all that. Kill 120 to save 680. The Devil's arithmetic.

The initial disinformation and spinning shouldn't surprise me--it's hard to tell the truth when bare-faced lying has become so institutionalized--but I do find it horribly disappointing. Old habits die hard, and the self-serving untruth has become reflexive. I keep hoping that's going to change.

"Politics makes a man crooked as a pack does a peddler: not because it is so heavy, but because it teaches you to stoop in the end."
 
 
Pepsi Max
12:55 / 28.10.02
OK, on the one hand we have 700 hostages saved.

On the other we have over 100 killed by their own side's incompetent use of chemical agents.

Nice one, guys.

Little sympathy for the Chechen terrorists, they were going to die one way or another (callous but true).

Death toll from this same order of magnitude as Bali (hundreds, not tens or thousands). What's coverage like in the UK/US?

And hey, waddya know, it's lead to a crackdown in Chechnya.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
13:30 / 28.10.02
I suppose one encouraging thing about this debacle is that the press in Russia seems to be alot freer than I would expect - I'm surprised there isn't a total information freeze by the Putin government. I read there was even footage from inside the theater in the aftermath broadcast on Russian TV.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:06 / 28.10.02
This just in: Pentagon experts have ventured the opinion that the gas used was an aerosolized opiate. Smacksmoke, in other words.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
18:47 / 28.10.02
The Meaning somebody sat down and ran the numbers--collateral damage, acceptable losses, and all that. Kill 120 to save 680. The Devil's arithmetic.

Hmm. I'm curious. How would you have strategized in this situation, Jack? Or others here who seem to think that the Russians played it wrong. What do you think they should have done?

This should come as no surprise to those who know me: I think the Russians played it right.

It's easy to interpret what they've said (and what Putin's saying) about this: if you try anything like this, we will do whatever it takes to destroy you. We will not capitulate, and we are willing to sacrifice your hostages to get to you. They are not the bargaining chip you assume.

Kill 100 and save 700. Eliminate the terrorists, save only enough for questioning. I think the message should be pretty clear: this kind of thing doesn't work in Russia.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
19:37 / 28.10.02
Hmm. I'm curious. How would you have strategized in this situation, Jack? Or others here who seem to think that the Russians played it wrong. What do you think they should have done?

Negotiated. Pulled out of Chechnia. Failing that, sent in medics to help the drugged hostages.

Kill 100 and save 700. Eliminate the terrorists, save only enough for questioning. I think the message should be pretty clear: this kind of thing doesn't work in Russia.

The Chinese government said something like this about Tieneman Square. I don't imagine Russian citizens are taking it as calmly as you.
 
 
Naked Flame
19:40 / 28.10.02
the whole Chechen situation now all over the media like a rash, a conference on the future of the region about to open in Copenhagen and widespread condemnation of Russian tactics....

this kind of thing doesn't work in Russia

news to me, Ray.
 
 
Naked Flame
19:43 / 28.10.02
oh, and

sent in medics to help the drugged hostages.

amen to that. And how about equipping those medics with the antidote? Or, hey, telling them which chemical agent was used?
 
 
Cherry Bomb
20:45 / 28.10.02
I don't think negotiating with terrorists is necessarily the best idea. Maybe it's just me, but that seems like kind of a bad message to send to other would-be terrorists.

I'm pretty sure the Russians didn't expect the gas nightmare they now currently have on their hands, but even if they don't want to tell the world what gas they used one idea would be to give medics the antidote and also not name that if they want to keep their secrets.

I suspect those gassed will be living with the effects for perhaps the rest of their lives. And to think, all these poor people did was go and see a play...
 
 
at the scarwash
01:01 / 29.10.02
Didn't Russia withdraw from Chechnya like ten years ago, for a while? And the first thing anyone knew, Chechnyans were getting involved in skirmishes with bordering Russian villages? Not saying Russia is right, but that they have some vague basis for their actions. If someone knows more about the historical context, I'd love to be filled in. It was just something that my ex was talking about in between arguments (she's from Minsk.)
 
 
The Monkey
04:44 / 29.10.02
1) There is every indication, even from the press outside the threatre, that the gas was released in response to gunfire inside...the Chechens were firing at a boy running down the aisle during a tantrum...thus we are assessing not merely a strategic decision, but one made in desperation on the only viable working model, which was that the Chechens had begun executing people en masse.

2) You have to understand that every assessment of terrorist hostage situations across the globe suggests that the perpetrators have little interest in obtaining their precise demands...which are often logistically unworkable within the time frames they propose. And terrorists packing bombs are even less likely to actually be engaging in a diplomatic process: their intent is to draw attention globally and create martyr-images to inspire their kinsmen...remember that terrorists are a narrow subsection even of the people they claim to represent, and it is important to sustain an image of struggle and heroism to increase recruitment.
Think of this as a psychological profile: terrorists are *not* reasonable people, and in spite of the dialogue structure of their actions, there is no true dialogue with the people they make demands of. A hostage negotiator from the Moscow Police, or even the Special Services, cannot shift governmental policy from a position outside a theatre: hostage-takers place the onus of impossible action upon shoulders they know can not bear the weight, then respond violently at the inevitable failure. (And government high-ups can concede because it sets precedent for the systematic extortion of the government for whatever whimsy the hostage-takers, or anyone with a gun and four walls, desire...or is Ronald Reagan now a hero for trading arms to Iran to bring people home alive?)
Furthermore, terrorists are vengeful in a fashion that is willing to not merely draw that the ends justify the means, but that the ends justifies the savaging of innocent bystanders that possess an ascribed status affiliate with the hegemonies that they, the terrorists, feel in opposition to. They are, so to speak, willing to settle. Consider what kind of mentality is willing to cut that corner. The odds are if you are dealing with besieged hostage-takers with a political agenda, they will not release nor recant. Appeasement has little likelihood of serving to save lives.

3) Hostage-taking, more often than not, is logistically a suicide run. Terrorists who adopt the strategy are generally intelligent enough to understand the crushing odds against then, and operate on the assumption of eminent death.
In non-political contexts, criminals take hostages to ensure safe passage through following law enforcement. A terrorist hostage-taker is not merely ringed by cops, though: he/she is in a entire country hostile to their action, vastly outnumbered and outgunned. Even if their demands are met, the logistics of an exit plan from an entire region is generally laughable.
This was part of the value of plane hijacking: the craft is a structure easily patrolled and defended by a handful of men, is itself an exit plan *and* a means hold the hostages in place without loss of leverage.
Politically-motivated hostage-takers know this going in - the odds are overwhelmingly against them: to choose to do this is certain death. Terrorists aren't stupid, and their fanaticism is not of such a degree that they play at being the Light Brigade. Where possible, such as with plane hijacking, they can arrange things to not be so spectacularly fatal. But to hold a building in the center of an opponent's nation's capital is a suicide run. Even if Russia withdrew from Chechnya, they would still be criminals- murderers and kidnappers -and subject to regional law.

4) The ensconced terrorist is isolated by the siege he/she establishes, lacking a method even of confirming whether their demands (beyond those affecting the immediate, visible environs) have been met or relying upon a limited range of intel...and thus vulnerable to disinformation. Furthermore, terrorists immediately loose all leverage when they release their hostages. Demands can be undone, and there is no means of guaranteeing even self-preservation with their release. In toto, the hostage taker has little to no incentive to release hostages alive.

5) General operating procedure for a hostage crisis is: first, negotiation with the intent to relieve as many hostages as possible from harm, making minor concessions and demands of the takers. Remember that negotiation generally occurs at the city law level...so there really isn't any means for negotiators to obtain things like, say, a complete alteration of military policy.
Second, insertion of troups to eliminate the threat with efficiency and minimal collateral damage...which is immensely difficult - the finest anti-terrorist squads are still given an "allowance" of acceptable loss because the whole shebang is a nightmare: man-to-man gunfight within a cramped, crowded space.
The Chechens put the Russian police in a unique bind by arranging such a large unit of actors: a terrorist cell is generally a handful -four to six - clandestinely inserted into the area they wish to hold. A unit of sixty terrorists is unprecedented, and vastly complicates the matter: you can't viably launch a surprise attack against that many troops - especially when they occupy a constrained space with limited entrances - because they possess sufficient numbers where they can neither be picked off nor contained sufficiently to prevent harm to the hostages. Fifty soldiers is enough to create sets of offensive and defensive units in addition to the walking bombs, and enough to engage the enemy effectively while massacring the hostages...or merely blowing everything sky high.
Gas was a viable option for trying to immobilize the hostage-takers in toto, including the females with trigger-detonating explosives strapped to them: anything less than near-instantaneous assuring massive casualities. A 5-kilo bomb packed with metal dross means a lot of scrapnel-shredded corpses...a blast radius of up to 60' depending on the explosive. How many people in a 50' radius circle?

It didn't work. Probably for a lot of reasons we don't get because we're not aerosol biochemists. If it was invented as riot gas, it was designed to be used in open spaces on healthy people, not in a theatre of empty-stomached hostages.
But work out a different method of getting people out alive and unmaimed. Leave Chechnya? Sure...now how long would it take to pull back forces? What if it takes too long? And what if the Chechens decide to follow and harry, or recapture that contested land on their borders that's occupied by Russian citizens? What's that cost of life? And what do you do when you actually hear the semiautomatics popping inside, and suddenly it's not a question of days, but seconds?

Most folk are masters at Monday-morning quarterbacking, especially when it gives an opportunity to feel superior and palpitate one's sense of moral indignation. It allows one to retrofit blame into tidy packets, where in fact there is only muddy chaos.
 
 
bio k9
06:44 / 29.10.02
Well, according to Gennady Gudkov, a deputy in the Russian Parliament, “This is one of the biggest victories anyone has ever scored in the war on terrorism,” so I quess everythings going to be ok. Anyway, it looks like armchair quarterbacking is all were going to get.

I thought all the children had been released earlier in the ordeal but the reports are that the Chechens were shooting at a kid for throwing a tantrum (and they somehow missed him and killed others)? When this whole thing started it was reported that the Chechens had packed the building with explosives. Now its down to 18 women with nail bombs strapped to their waists. Regardless of what kind of bombs they did or didn't have, can anyone tell me why none of the bombs went off?
 
 
Naked Flame
09:33 / 29.10.02
Monkey, while I agree with some of your points, this-

1) There is every indication, even from the press outside the threatre, that the gas was released in response to gunfire inside...the Chechens were firing at a boy running down the aisle during a tantrum...thus we are assessing not merely a strategic decision, but one made in desperation on the only viable working model, which was that the Chechens had begun executing people en masse.

is fallacious. The gas must have been in place prior to the gunfire, therefore was very much a strategic decision made in advance of any moment of emergency. Further, the hostages that were allegedly shot in this moment didn't turn up in hospital (only one gunshot casualty.)

Also, we're told the gas took ten minutes to work. Which is not really a response to a gunfight, is it?

I still want to know how many of the rebels were gunned down whilst unconscious.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
10:36 / 29.10.02
I don't think negotiating with terrorists is necessarily the best idea. Maybe it's just me, but that seems like kind of a bad message to send to other would-be terrorists.

Well, here's the thing. Military & law enforcement agencies refuse to negotiate w/terrorists because it completely undermines the authority of the state. If they make exceptions, they have no power to use violence while carrying out their agenda later. For instance, if the Russian police had brokered a deal this time with the Chechens, they'd have to broker a deal the next time or look totally inconsistent -- neither are something an authority wants to do. But what's the authority for, anyway? We have this illusion that we allow our governments to form police forces and militaries so that they will protect us from harm, but a situation like this makes them liars. How many times do we watch policemen killing the people they're expected to save before we start revoking their authority? It becomes apparent how few of their powers have been granted by the people, and how many have been seized by force.

So, from the cops' point of view, never negotiate with terrorists, but from your point of view? As a victim or potential victim?

I suspect those gassed will be living with the effects for perhaps the rest of their lives. And to think, all these poor people did was go and see a play...

From the people who brought you Chernobyl. Chrikee, what's the Russian personal health insurance business like?
 
 
Ethan Hawke
11:58 / 29.10.02
So, from the cops' point of view, never negotiate with terrorists, but from your point of view? As a victim or potential victim?

Yes on both counts - of course there's that nagging reptilian part of the brain that demands self-preservation, but the non-negotiation stance turns terrorist actions such as this one into a non-starter as a tactic - they gained nothing but their deaths from this action, lost much sympathy they might have otherwise received from their struggle, and quite probably doomed ANY future peace negotiations with the Russians as the international community's reaction to a crackdown in Chechnya is likely to be muted.

As the citizen of a state, I DEMAND that my surrogates in power (yeah, right...) take a hardline against such actions, so that other groups will not be emboldened by any successes.

he gas must have been in place prior to the gunfire, therefore was very much a strategic decision made in advance of any moment of emergency.

This isn't a a persuasive or logical argument against the idea that the gas was used at the spur of the moment. It was probably set up on a contingency basis (reports, IIRC, indicate that the Russians were in sewer areas aroudn the theater as early as Wednesday night) to use as needed. It was, as you say, a strategic decision, but how does that argue against its use?

I still want to know how many of the rebels were gunned down whilst unconscious.

According to indications, all of them. So what? How else do you deal with someone, who might wake up, who has a nail bomb strapped to their chest. Yeah, its distasteful to execute an unconscious woman, but there's little choice.

I hate defending Putin, but I don't think anyone has come up with a credible alternate plan to what went down. Even if the Russians "crunched the numbers" as Jack says (which I sort of doubt, given the international outcry that probably would have followed), it still was the only tenable solution.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
12:29 / 29.10.02
the whole Chechen situation now all over the media like a rash, a conference on the future of the region about to open in Copenhagen and widespread condemnation of Russian tactics....

Which is nothing new. Statements condemning Russian action in Chechnya have been floating around on the international scene for nearly five years now. The Russians have a very relaxed attitude to the Western press - they know as well as we do that within a month something else will be the "important story" and by and large, Chechnya will be forgotten. It appears to me that the terrorist attack has earned the Chechnyans nothing but an assurance that Russia will show them no mercy.

The response to my "what would you have done" is nearly universally laughable. Negotiate? Pull out of Chechnya? Do you even know why the Russians want Chechnya? Do you understand what's been going on there for the last few years? Is it clear to you that the terrorists knew their demand was impossible? It seems to me that a hostage taker who makes an unfulfillable demand is telegraphing intent to murder the hostages in as public a manner as possible. That way people like you and I, comfortably across the sea, can say "Man, those 700 people died just because the Russians refused to pull out of Chechnya".

"Send medics in..." - yes, on this I'm with you. It was inexcusable for them to fail to provide immediate, informed assistance to the hostages. That kind of unnecessarily secretive behavior, unfortunately, is as endemic to Russian policy as is the iron fist they showed to the terrorists.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
12:31 / 29.10.02
Oh, and Qalyn:

How many times do we watch policemen killing the people they're expected to save before we start revoking their authority?

They saved 680 people.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
16:18 / 29.10.02
For what it's worth, this Guardian article gives a rundown of events leading up to the Russian entry into the theatre: it sounds from this as though there were a good couple of hours between the shooting and the gas, and that the Russian forces were waiting for the male Chechens to leave the women in the auditorium, so that they (the forces) could cut communications and operate without haveing to worry about the bombs being set off.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
17:08 / 29.10.02
Ray, the hostages who were killed weren't killed by terrorists, they weren't caught accidentally in the crossfire, and they didn't sacrifice their lives. They were killed by police officers (I'm assuming that they were police officers, though I understand that in Russia there's a gray area between civil police and the military) who made the conscious decision that they were expendable. They said, "Well, we can afford to kill those one hundred (and seventy-odd, isn't it?) civilians." That doesn't seem like an abuse of power to you? I'm not alleging an abuse of power by specific officers here. I recognize that the officers had little choice in the matter. I'm saying that the structure of legal authority is a direct cause of this kind of violence.

As the citizen of a state, I DEMAND that my surrogates in power (yeah, right...) take a hardline against such actions, so that other groups will not be emboldened by any successes.

As far as I know, there's never been a permissive attitude toward terrorism, never been a 'soft line' against such actions, yet terrorist violence is increasing. What makes you think hardlines work?
 
 
Ray Fawkes
18:01 / 29.10.02
That doesn't seem like an abuse of power to you?

In short? No, it doesn't. It seems like an informed tactical decision, and it's a decision I approve of.

And they were military special forces, not police.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
18:13 / 29.10.02
I'm saying that the structure of legal authority is a direct cause of this kind of violence.

Whereas I would respond that the desperate, suicidal, and pointlessly brutal tactics on the part of the Chechen rebels and other would-be terrorists like them is the direct cause of this kind of violence.

The oppressive battle in Chechnya itself, and Russia's cold military tactics set up to satisfy a traditionally rapacious state agenda might be considered an indirect cause of this kind of violence.

Let us not forget that we are looking at a situation in which 50 or more "rebels" stormed a theatre full of unarmed civillians, held them at gunpoint and under threat of mass execution by explosive, and made impossible demands by way of negotiation. Do we step the context down to the theatre itself, in terms of defining oppression, or do we step it up to the Russians, vis a vis their treatment of Chechnya? Or further, to the economic pressures placed on Russia by Chechnya's attempt to break away without making crucial trade concessions to Russia? Or beyond that, to the treatment Chechnya received as part of the Soviet Union? As usual, this is a complicated situation.
 
  

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