BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Sex and Violence (made ya look.)

 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:51 / 04.02.02
Riffing off a sub-topic of "Gender and Suicide", we get this:

quote:Originally posted by Mordant C@rnival:
I don't want to fall into the trap of suggesting that men are inherantly more violent than women, because I happen not to belive this.



quote:Originally posted by Sleeperservice:
Why not? Since earliest recorded history men have been more violent. In fact I can't think of a society where this wasn't true. Although I'd love to stand corrected.


quote:Originally posted by Mordant C@rnival:
Okayyyy... flagrantly off-topic here, but my personal theory goes something like this:

#1 In general, men are physically bigger and stronger than women.

#2 This has meant that in most violent confrontations between a man and a woman, the man will win.

#3 Over the millenia, this relationship, based purely on physical discrepancy, has been codified into a social norm. Men are raised from infancy to favour pysically violent impulses or to favour some ritualized expression of said impulses. Women are raised from infancy to repress and conceal physically violent impulses, and further to regard these impulses as a threat to their femininity.

This means that, yeah, men will tend to be more physically violent than women. IMHO, this is more to do with opportunity than predisposition, more nurture than nature.

Just a theory. I belive that little boys are born loving, not hating.


quote:Originally posted by Sleeperservice:
I don't think it is OT. My point being that higher male suicide rates stem from higher male violence rates.

If violence were a product of nurture you would expect to find societies where men were not more violent than women. Even if they were few, isolated and had been wiped out by now they should have still existed. I know of none.

A time machine would be great you could go back & see how people lived rather than relying on 100th hand information... I tend to think, however, that we've always been violent simply because it aided our survival.

I also think that boys are born loving, not hating. I just also think they are generally more violent.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:54 / 04.02.02
Help?
 
 
Re-Set
19:21 / 04.02.02
To throw another wrench into the cogs-
all this discussion can possibly do is cover action, not intent.
We don't know if females in genral might have more violent thinking but overall better restraint in social circumstances. Or, perhaps males are less likely to act dramatically without crowd-mentality egging them on, thus increasing the higher number of attempts at solitary self-violence in females, but a higher ocurrence of civil? violence in males.
Throw in burgeoning ideas of sex-belying-gender, gender roles being reinterpreted on a daily basis, and and the semantics argument of intent v. action., and we have a topic that sets off buttons on nearly every level.

Do we need to ask again in 20 years?
 
 
alas
14:14 / 05.02.02
there's no there there. that's the problem. there's no "male essence"--separable from culture--that we have access to, whether through anthropology (a Western epistemological construct) biology (a Western epistemological construct) sociology (a Western . .. you get my drift.) We can't examine even human infants in some rarified space outside of culture: that space does not exist. So we ultimately can't know whether men "really, truly are" more violent than women. I'm not convinced there's a real "essential" masculinity, and, even if there was, I don't have access to it. Neither do you. Neither does Jane Goodall.

That said--Mordant's right, Sleeperservice is wrong. In essence.
 
 
No star here laces
14:21 / 05.02.02
It's also a fairly pointless debate.

If, as Mordant says, it is all due to men being bigger, then there is probably very little, culturally that can ever be done to change this.

Men are more aggressive/violent. Does it matter why? Sleeperservice's theory that violence ---> suicide would surely still hold if male violence is a product of nurture, the only thing of importance is its existence...
 
 
Re-Set
14:50 / 05.02.02
quote:Originally posted by Lyra Lovelaces:
It's also a fairly pointless debate.

If, as Mordant says, it is all due to men being bigger, then there is probably very little, culturally that can ever be done to change this.

Men are more aggressive/violent. Does it matter why? Sleeperservice's theory that violence ---> suicide would surely still hold if male violence is a product of nurture, the only thing of importance is its existence...


I'm not sure that being physically larger on average is enough to explain males' greater propensity towards violence. From an evolutionary standpoint, a violent environment would be more likely to produce size as a preferred trait than vice-versa. (I'm not saying it's not a pointless debate)

Regardless, if how it got that way is unanswerable/irrelevant, changing it isn't. How do we get both genders to be less violent/suicidal? Even if we could, should we? Is it possible that violence and suicidal tendencies are an evolutionary trait weeding themselves out of the pool?
 
 
bitchiekittie
15:18 / 05.02.02
we have to start by actively fighting against the stereotypes our children are expected to follow, and to not feed them ourselves.

even the toys we purchase facilitate the "tough guy" and "little princess" pigeonholes - look at the average boys nursery vs girls nursery. baseballs and racecars vs rainbows and unicorns. boys clothing has "scary", aggressive animals, while girls have more fanciful and harmless creatures adorning everything. from the very beginning we teach boys to be strong and girls to be nurturing – rarely is there a meeting of the two in either sex.

this is NOT to suggest that any of the above icons are harmful in and of themselves, only that the constant push for each gender is probably not doing our kids any favors as far as sensitivity or flexibility. Im also not suggesting that parents necessarily do this knowingly, or that all parents neglect supporting a healthy range in their childrens development, only that its far too common to adopt these stereotypes as acceptable
 
 
The Knowledge +1
16:18 / 05.02.02
Oh I don't know I've met some pretty big women.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:18 / 05.02.02
What disturbs me is that women seem to be becoming more violent in recent times, rather than men becoming less so.
 
 
pantone 292
16:55 / 05.02.02
a fairly serious response to Mordant's last post...yeah, liberation m'dear, we can be doctors, politicians, and criminals in ever new and different ways...
and a fairly flippant one to lyra's, shure, something can be done! in cultures where men are thought to be bigger than women, breed men smaller. there should be laws. no 6' plus male can ever breed. Tall women must reproduce. [neatly letting *me* off the hook].
and, alas, yes. its true, we'll never 'know'.
 
 
Sleeperservice
17:37 / 05.02.02
So, erm, genes play no part in this? Don't forget we are animals. We may be able to talk & stuff but our animal history goes back many millions of years. Compared to the relatively brief period in which we've been civilised (funny, funny word that). This has a profound effect on our behaviour which seems to be ignored in favour of trying to rationalise our behaviour in terms of the mind or the brief experience of a single life time.
 
 
bitchiekittie
18:00 / 05.02.02
Im a big proponent of the theory (theory? hell, works for me) that while you cant necessarily control how you feel or what you think, you can control your behavior.

its the latter that we need to work more on -while it can be argued that we ARE a fertile ground for violent behavior, someone still needs to provide the materials for any real growth of that behavior pattern. withhold the supplies and do some regular weeding....
 
 
netbanshee
18:11 / 05.02.02
...this is a niche point of view (yet somewhat interesting) considering the fact that there weren't more than 10-20 women involved in my history with it, but I noticed in a martial arts "forum" that women were generally the ones that tended to be more direct and aggressive. It was common for many of the men in class to take more of a step back from women. This had nothing to do with the fact that they were female and we were uncomfortable fighting or working out with them either. In fact, any misgivings were squashed when you "took it easy" on a female student which ended up in a good head-pounding.

Since the controls were pretty high, I think the playing field was leveled more so than in other areas where men and women's aggressive tendancy can be viewed equally. Maybe, I'm not considering the fact that the women I worked out with were outside of the social norm, but it was different nonetheless...
 
 
Re-Set
19:53 / 05.02.02
quote:Originally posted by to banshee or not to banshee...:
...This had nothing to do with the fact that they were female and we were uncomfortable fighting or working out with them either. In fact, any misgivings were squashed when you "took it easy" on a female student which ended up in a good head-pounding.



So might this be an explanation for the apparent rise in female violence? The gender-bias stayed too high, too long at one end, and is now swinging back?
 
 
The Planet of Sound
08:46 / 06.02.02
This probably belongs here:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by He said he had a horrible Haus:

You do realise they (Bacchae, Amazons) didn't exist? That they were creations of masculine anxiety? And as such perfectly relevant to the discussion, but in a very different way?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think they did exist, in one form or another. Whether the Bacchae's cannibalistic rituals were over-puffed in the re-telling is a different matter. Maenads? I also believe Amazon mythos has some basis in historical fact, again, whether those facts have been distorted, Robin Hood/King Arthur stylee through history doesn't remove that grain of truth. Perhaps a lone group of independent female thieves, whose rep built up. These myths may illustrate male paranoia, but 'just because they're after you...'.

A few other pertinent examples of semi-mythologised 'warrior-women'; Boudicca, Joan of Arc, the numerous female (often trans-gender) pirates (rumours that Black Beard was a woman etc), the 'Bandit Queen' . History and mythology are peppered with examples of violent or murderous women (again, illustrating psychological anxieties, but...) Snow White's stepmother, Hansel and Gretel. Women aren't painted by the Western group mind entirely as the sugar and spice surface would suggest.

Now for personal stuff corner: a friend of mine is the father of his girlfriend's child. She told him she was on the pill, became pregnant, announced she was a lesbian, demanded he live with her to raise the child, and now hits him regularly in a tragically cliched example of kitchen sink domestic-tension-abuse. He doesn't hit back, but tries to restrain her. He doesn't leave because he loves his child, and doesn't want to have to go through the courts for access. I suppose he must partly still love her too.

True story; I know some of us like to stick to the theoretical, but what do you make of it? What insights might one gain from such a tale?
 
 
bitchiekittie
10:43 / 06.02.02
only that some people are willing to be taken advantage of and others are willing to take advantage of that fact
 
 
Bill Posters
12:28 / 09.02.02
Whether the Maenads existed precisely as described in the various sources is of course highly debateable, but there were Dionysia in Greece and Bacchic festivals in Rome and, allegedly, in more rural areas, traces of the Greek ones survive to this day. Worth checking out Eva Keuls' work on female ritual resitance to the phallocracy back in Ancient Greece in this regard.

My thinking on gender and violence? 'S not really mine, it's Steven Jones' and I'm pasting it from the Sociobiology thread. Statistically, here in London more murders are committed by men than women. Therefore, I am more likely to unlawfully terminate the life of another human animal than, say, Kooky. However, in Chicago there are many more murders per head of the population than in London, so many more that statistically-speaking, a Chicago female is more likely to murder than a London male. Therefore if there's a female- identified poster on this board living in Chicago, then she is more likely to kill than Kooky or me. Hence we may conclude that while there might be a biological tendency for men to be more violent than women, environmental factors like gun availability and gang cultures etc will prolly also play a part. I'm not anything like as agnostic as alas on this one, because I think such cross-cultural comparisons can tell us a lot, but I can't agree with sleeper's over-generalization.

What also concerns me is that are we not talking physical violence here? Is all violence physical? Foucault would argue otherwise. What about psychological forms of violence?
 
 
netbanshee
14:38 / 09.02.02
quote:What also concerns me is that are we not talking physical violence here? Is all violence physical? Foucault would argue otherwise. What about psychological forms of violence?

I guess that much of the violence already discussed is in the physical arena...making it easy to look at men as the general source of such things (via examples throughout history).

I'd have to say though that in my experience, women tended to have a strong ability to be violent by other methods (emotionally and mentally abusive). And as my one friend used to say..."why give someone a black eye when it could heal, hit them where it hurts"... I think often times, women are definitely aware of the fact that men generally are better equipped for physical violence, so it makes sense to balance the threat by other means.

So...I guess this could move out onto the floor...Overall, do you think violence is an equal held issue by gender, a propensity by one side more than another, or a distributed phenomena over various types...
 
 
Bill Posters
07:30 / 10.02.02
The last one, definately the last one.
 
 
Cherry Bomb
10:35 / 10.02.02
Everybody stop what you're doing and go read "The Chalice & The Blade" and/or "Sacred Pleasure" by Riane Eisler [i]NOW...{/i]

Theory in a nutshell: the society in which we live(one in which violence is glorified, and interestingly thread-related, sexuality is tied to violence)is essentially the result of the "dominator" school of thought that governs the culture. That is to say, might makes right. So "worth" is based on power. Whether that is strength, money, skin color - whoever has the power wins the game.

According to the divine Ms. Eisler, this "dominator" culture is the culprit behind sexism, abuse, racism - anything in which the weak is dominated by the strong.

Interesting reading. She does a far better job of arguing her point than I do. You should check it out.

Anyway, Eisler proposes a "partnership" method of society, in which one sex is not seen as better or worse than one another but two halves of the same whole who, when working together, DOUBLE their power. These societies DID actually exist back in the day, and what was very interesting about them was their art, etc. very much celebrated life and love - pictures of couples embracing, erotica, goddesses, vulvas, children - FASCINATING stuff.

Things changed (read the book) and as they did and we moved the dominator society, dominating art culture became the battle scenes that we are all now so familiar with in heroic statues, and oh yeah the center of religion became a man dying on a cross.

I have a point here, really I do. And the point is I don't believe that we as a society would have so much violence if it weren't a valued aspect of it. Are men more violent than women?

....I honestly don't know. MAYBE. I'd only say that due to testerone perhaps causing a little more aggression. But that's of course the slant those studies are going to take. MAYBE it has everything to do with men being socialized that way.

As far as our culture goes, well, violence (might) is still the way to get power (right), so why wouldn't women attempt to become more so?
 
 
The Monkey
09:56 / 14.02.02
hmmm.

First of all, Cherry Bomb--

Was wondering which societies Ms. Eisler was talking about...but can't get my hands on the books. Agree with her point about "dominator" societies, and, donning my Marx outfit, would go farther to suggest that the differentiation in violent activities between genders can be linked to the divisions of labor in different societal...specifically, that violence is structured and deployed differently depending upon the industrial complexity of the society [which generally favors male strength with greater captial, as opposed to forager contexts, where labor is divided but equally valid].
On the other hand, would be a little suspicious of her aritistic analysis...all of the elements you describe can be found in many societies with rigid gender imbalance...India and Hellenic Greece come to mind first. Not to mention the difficulties of extracting anything truly concrete from the fossil/archaelogical record. But you are summarizing, so there's probably a lot I'm missing.

However, was wondering if anyone would go in with me on perhaps dicing up the field of violence a bit?
For example, how, in different contexts/cultures are male-male, male-to-female, female-to-male and female-female violence constructed, and which are considered appropriate when. Furthermore, how do societal gender roles and relationships further break down the whens and wherefores of violence, and how do these divisions link back up to our perception of general tendencies toward male and female violence?

It's an odd point, but I was thinking in particular about mother-child violence, i.e. disciplinary spanking.
Furthermore, I'm unsure how many of y'all were raised in poor, non-Western contexts [I myself was born in rural Russia around Kolyma], but I grew up around women who thrashed the crap out of their husbands when the latter were being layabouts...and the latter would not give violent resistance, only defend...but in their turn the wives were beaten by their husbands on different occasions when they (the women) were viewed as out of line.
The odd sticking point in my memory is that if a man was beating his wife, and she felt it unjustified, she'd fight back. The reverse situation was far less common.

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: [monkeys violating the temple] ]
 
 
Naked Flame
09:56 / 14.02.02
Of course the Maenads existed. Still do. They're another one of those if-they-didn't- exist-it-would-be-necessary-to- invent- them deals. Even if the stories came out of male anxiety, it's all still human headspace.

Incidentally, anyone who has ever been a 5 year old boy knows that 5 year old boys will do some disgustingly cruel things. We're only human (i.e. genetically programmed top-of-the-food chain killers with aggressive hegemonistic tendencies. Rah.) Mind you I used to run with an all-girl gang way back in preschool, and they were pretty hardcore too.

Edit: before we can argue about a gender/violence link, shouldn't we be looking for a humanity/violence link? I mean, considering we're not thinking in binary with gender any more (except I sometimes suspect it may still be binary, just 16-bit) shouldn't we ask whether violence is innate? I'm very wary of getting into a nature/nurture male/female crossfire.

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: Flame On ]
 
 
The Monkey
09:56 / 14.02.02
The humans-violence thing doesn't pan out well, either, it becomes the same nature/nuture headbutting. Personally, I'm more on the nuture side of things.

Taking your statement, Flame On, and using it as a bouncing board:

"genetically-programmed top-of-the-food chain killers with aggressive hegemonistic tendencies."

The funny thing is, we're not genetically-programmed killers...if any animal can be spoken of as such. Arguably, a true "killer" would be a full-time predator, such as a shark, wasp, or cat, who take all of their nutrition from meat and fat, and thus is required to kill and/or consume prey. Big cats take all necessary nutrients from the body of their prey, with no supplimentation.
Humans and our antecedents have always been omnivores, with the bulk of calories coming from plant-starch/sugar sources. In forager societies to this day, meat is viewed as a dietary luxury, not a necessity.

Everything the paleontological record demonstrates suggests that we are descended from species that were primarily foragers [hunter-gatherers], with a minimal supplementation of the diet with hunterd meat, although moving out into the open plains of Africa, we became scavengers. The first stone tools found...bevelled knives and scrapers... are devices that allowed easier disassembly of a dead animal, before more dangerous competing scavengers (lions, hyenas) arrived, and furthermore, the cleaving open of bones to consume marrow. Well up into the period of the Cro-Magnon and the Neanderthal (Holocene?), where one first starts finding bows, and evidence of traps/devices such as buffalo runs, it is likely that humans remained largely scavengers.
The image of prehistory man as "great hunter" taking on big game is a bit of a crock--in a prior age and zeitgeist, an enobling myth.

Furthermore, humans aren't the top of the food chain...in the few regions where there are large carnivores remaining. While most animals have learned to avoid large groups of humans, unless rabid, etc., they will still stalk and consume small or wounded prey they can catch unawares. In colonial Indian records, almost all of the tiger and leopard attacks, successful or not, are made against children.
 
 
The Monkey
09:56 / 14.02.02
On a less thread-rotty note:

Two things to consider in the sociobiological construction of violence amongst humans. I'm not sure if I agree with the implicit argument, which falls into the Dawkins-ish school of thought, but figured I'd lay it out anyway.

Amongst other animals, and specifically amongt vertebrates, ethologists classify violent behavior (aggressive posturing, attacking, hurting, killing)into two types: predatory and territorial.

The first type ties in with my big-cat description upstairs--stalking, killing and eating "prey." Descriptively, this type of violence can be roughly characterized as highly functional and efficient. The subject of violence is selected for strategic weakness [immaturity, illness, immobility], is killed as quickly as possible, and consumed.

The second type is territorial, and covers much much more intellectual ground. It covers everything between a dog growling at you from its porch, to an mating-combat between caribou, to chimpanzees declaring "war" on a local baboon troupe. In most of the animal kingdom, territorial violence is directly linked to personal space, ie the defensive structures of baboon troupes, and/or living/resource space, such as a tiger's hunting territory. The competition for mates and the protection of offspring can be considered subsets of the former. Attacks as counteraction to surprise, such a snake's bite, also fall in this category.

Territorial violence is characterized by threat displays prior to action...think male gorillas and rattlesnakes...attempts to frighten away the other subject, followed by actual violent action that is typically nonfatal, nor sustained. Finally, if continually provoked, the violence will result in an attack with deadly intent. Interestingly, violent behavior grounded in self-preservation, etc., tends to be much more...er, messy...on the whole.

Now, let us throw humans into the pot. Very rarely does human behavior in this modern age necessitate the display of predatory violence in its most literal ethological sense.
Thus most, if not all, human violence, is grounded in terms of self-preservation and territorial preservation.
Now consider this: with that additional pile of fat-circuitry on top of our lizard-brain, our constructions of "self" and "territory" are extrapolated far beyond physical integrity and what we pee on...
hence out unique crossings into the realm of violence grounded in concept.

[ 14-02-2002: Message edited by: [monkeys violating the temple] ]
 
  
Add Your Reply