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Should having children be regulated?

 
  

Page: 1234(5)

 
 
Quantum
13:22 / 02.04.03
enttything- "I see no reason to deliver into the hands of an already massively-bloated national government (of whatever nation) the power to prevent certain people from having children"
I totally agree

"We seem to be taking for granted the veracity of the widespread belief that human life is overpopulating the planet beyond sustainability"
I don't agree- I for one don't take it for granted, I have carefully investigated it and found it to be true.

"Wise use of the resources we have..." I totally agree, there is already more than enough food in the world to feed everybody alive, economic inequality is what is keeping people hungry.

"enough power exists in a cubic centimeter of "nothing" (or rather, air)" "hydroponics, aquaculture, insect protein" this stuff is sci fi at the moment.
I seem to somehow vehemently agree with you and take issue with you- sorry.

Jack- I think your idea is sound, using apathy to control overpopulation, but I can't think of anything that isn't sci-fi or ethically dodgy. It's too big a problem for my brain, but there must be loads of stuff on the web about it, maybe I'll go look...
 
 
Leap
14:42 / 10.04.03
As with all 'regulation', "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?".
 
 
*
13:40 / 11.04.03
"hydroponics, aquaculture, insect protein... this stuff is sci-fi at the moment" --Quantum

Actually, it's not, it's just not being done on a large scale. Fr'instance, I have friends who are staunch advocates of the insect protein idea, and all of their non-plant-based protein needs are served by their homegrown mealworms etc. Not that the idea appeals to me terribly, but I'm pretty bourgeois like that. A significant portion of our food fish is farm-raised, and seaweed and shellfish can be cultured as well. Shrimp farms are an ecological disaster if they're in open water, however, and tuna can't yet be farm-raised at all. As far as hydroponics, Disney was doing this at Epcot Center in the mid-eighties, so it can't be that sci-fi. Not that I'm holding Disney up as a model of ethical science, but there you have it.
 
 
Quantum
14:57 / 11.04.03
Why resort to expensive and complex techniques (hydroponics etc) when there's already enough food?
Even if there weren't, we could produce ten times as much food as we do if we stop eating meat. (Say it takes ten fields of grass to make a cow, those same fields could produce many times that much food if planted with grain for example).
I've been a vegetarian all my life, I don't eat seafood or insects or mealy worms. We don't need these techniques- they're expensive and impractical (which is why they're not being used on a large scale and why I called them sci-fi; not impossible, just impractical)
 
 
Marian
15:17 / 11.04.03
Good grief! Four whole pages? Surely a simple 'no' would have sufficed.
 
 
Rev. Orr
19:34 / 11.04.03
Yeah, well we tried that. At least it keeps them busy otherwise they'd be off breeding...
 
 
Adamant
17:12 / 29.04.03
Right to breed.

What is that? Where did it come from? Did the government think it up, or your imaginary friend, God? I chuckle at the idea. Right to breed. That's a good one, really. And what if no one wants to breed with you? You take them by force then, after all, you have the right... to breed *chuckle*.

No, there's no such right. And I'd be the first one in line for free sterilization. I don't see to many kids that have parents worthy of child-bearing. I am not referring to their class, I'm referring to their behavior as parents. Visit a supermarket, you can't miss it.

It's unenforcable though. The water idea covers the most ground, but then you'd have black market water, and that would be just too crazy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:11 / 29.04.03
Well, "black market water" or Evian, or Perrier, or any number of other unpatriotically French waters. That's sort of the problem. Howvever, to assocaite the right to breed with the right to rape is, of course, a straw man, and a rather ineffectual one to boot. The one involves a lack of governmental interference in conduct, the other a mole of interference in individual liberties by other individuals. It's chalk and goats.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
01:09 / 30.04.03
Adamant - I don't see to many kids that have parents worthy of child-bearing. I am not referring to their class, I'm referring to their behavior as parents. Visit a supermarket, you can't miss it.

Hmmm. I love these non-parent judgements of other parents. I remember them well.

Not wanting to derail this thread anymore then has happened previously, but how many of those posting actually have children at the moment ??(those who have already confirmed none and no intention of are noted).

Its not necessary to discuss the issues, of course, but I'd be interested to know.
 
 
Adamant
02:59 / 30.04.03
"The one involves a lack of governmental interference in conduct"

That's very short sighted. Sure, if the family does a good job caring for the child and doesn't need government assistance, then yes, all that is needed is lack of governmental interference. A far greater amount of government interference and intervention is needed for those families who are poor and/or abusive to their children.

If breeding is a right, then it's a right comparable to that of gun ownership. Responsibility is required in both instances, and both need to be regulated for the good of society.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:27 / 30.04.03
Bags I be on the regulatory board...

If breeding is a right, then it's a right comparable to that of gun ownership. Responsibility is required in both instances, and both need to be regulated for the good of society.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:20 / 30.04.03
And what conditions would you impose?

Adamant has a point, but makes another chalk and goats comparison. Parturition occurs when specific steps are not taken to prevent it, whereas gun ownership occurs when specific steps are taken to engineer it.

Of course, better that accidental pregnancies do not occur. But this thread is not, as has been mentioned before, "wouldn't it be nice if nobody ever had children unless they wanted them?"
 
 
Leap
13:07 / 30.04.03
Parturition occurs when specific steps are not taken to prevent it, whereas gun ownership occurs when specific steps are taken to engineer it.

Do you think people reproduce asexually, by spontaneous budding, or is this just what your dates tell you?! Last time I checked (again, personal experience I am afraid) actions are created to make children (not a lack of actions).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:32 / 30.04.03
OK. Very slowly for the Leapster.

When a man and a lady love each other very much, sometimes they have a special kiss called a sexing. This is "natural", "common", "human nature" and all those other things you are so keen on, remember?

Now, a sexing is a lot of fun (albeit YMMV) and happens all over (again, YMMV). Birds, do it, bees do it, soccer moms in SUVs do it. Even Leap probably has at least anecdotal evidence of having done it. However, one thing about a sexing is that sometimes the lady gets a special seed in her tummy that might grow into a baby.

Now, what with humans having fallen from their state of nature, various techniques exist to prevent this babyseed, which is called a concepting. If none of these measures are taken - they are called contraceptings - then the risk of a babyseed is proportionally greater. Hence the idea that, by not taking contraceptings, the natural (ahem) process of the sexing might lead to pregnancing.

There is, conversely, nothing natural about buying a gun. It's a mediated process involving smithing, capital exchange, commerce and all sorts of other constructs. People often mix up guns and sexing because guns are long and hard like a man's sexing part when he is thinking about melee weapons (or a man's melee weapon when he is thinking about sex parts).

So, to explain again (no doubt as a prelude to doing so again and again, given that this is Leap) - the sexing is something that all animals do, whereas contraceptings devices are something hoomans have to procure and employ specially and uniquely to prevent conceptings. Guns, and the buying of guns, are conversely not generally used in the animal kingdom, and primitive humanity seems to have gotten on reasonably well without them, in a manner they did not with sexings.
 
 
Adamant
02:31 / 01.05.03
So having sex and making babies is "natural" and so that makes it different from wielding a gun in an important way? Not that I can tell. Not going to get into a debate about what can be considered natural and what can't, but I don't really see how it's relevant.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:57 / 01.05.03
(A minor edit has taken place here - In essence concerning whether people fall pregnant deliberately or accidentally)

The ideas of "to have a gun" and "to have a child" are, I think, more different than our language expresses. The one is a state of possesion. The second is an action *or* a state of possession, the cognates being "to buy a gun" and "to have a child". It's a peculiarity that I think comes into the language in Middle English and sticks there, but I could be wrong.

Now, a child and a gun are both things that one can possess, insofar as one can be the legal guardian of a child and the legal owner of a gun. The difference being that a child has a selfhood of its own, be that selfhood nascent, undeveloped, or whatever you wish to call it. One of the principles of a civilised society is, IMHO, that the child will not be punished for the activities of its parents. I accept that this is a fairly novel view in the history of justice, but that should not concern us now as being outwith the remit of this discussion.

So, point - it has already been pointed out that this is not a thread titled "Wouldn't it be nice if there were no unwanted children?" It is a thread asking a particular question, about whether childbirth should be regulated. Now, assuming we do not pump comtraceptives into the water, for which see the previous four pages, we can see a difference in the processes that result in "having a gun" and "having a child". Since most people do not have the equipment to make a gun, but many have the equipment to make a baby (ask a grown-up), the comparison of the two is never going to be entirely apposite. Certainly there are similarities - a badly-handled child is dangerous, as is a badly-handled gun. Education minimises unwanted instances of parturition, and may well also limit unwanted instances of gun misuse. Whether it also limits unwanted instances of making your own gun is another matter. Because guns and babies are made in different ways.

So...how does one indulge in "baby control". By declaring baby amnesties, where unwanted babies can be handed in for destruction? Probably not, which is an area where the comparison is not quite right. Whereas Leap and others would no doubt argue that educated people should have access to a limitless number of guns, presumably the same cannot be said for a limitless number of babies, if we assume that those babies will have potential financial ramifications for others not involved in their making, either as welfare cases or as vagabonds and bandits in the case of those who survive to penurious adulthood. So, how do we limit instances of having babies, in both senses? I'm proposing sex education and the free availability of contraceptives, which seems to work reasonably well in Scandinavia and the Netherlands, but YMMV. As per.
 
 
Leap
10:37 / 02.05.03
Haus –

I notice you wiped my sarcastic post.

How nice for you (considering it pointed out the sheer lunacy of what you have been saying).

OK. Very slowly for the Leapster………..

Nooooo…very slowly for ickle hausy who finks dat

Parturition occurs when specific steps are not taken to prevent it, whereas gun ownership occurs when specific steps are taken to engineer it.

Now, ickle Hausy, forgive me if I am generalising here (I cannot account for the fact that you ‘may’ be a creature that reproduces asexually) but typically, for a women to fall pregnant something has to be “done” to her (and they say romance is dead!) – she does not fall pregnant innately (like the way she grows teeth) but it requires a deliberate action to be taken in order to achieve it.

Gun ownership ALSO requires (sorry, big word….erm….needs) people to do something (gun ownership is like pregnancy in that it does not appear without deliberate action).

Therefore, when you say Parturition occurs when specific steps are not taken to prevent it you are talking gibberish. Pregnancy only occurs when specific steps are taken to cause it!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:58 / 02.05.03
I have PMed you about this, Leap. Attempts to drag Head Shop topics down to your level will be moved for deletion. I, however, did not wipe your "sarcastic" (if by that you mean abusive and semi-coherent) post. I moved it for deletion and somebody else wiped it. Barbelith works on consensus. Read the FAQ.

I will say only that you do not know the meaning of the word "parturition". It does not mean "falling pregnant" (do you know, I've never heard anyone use that phrase before outisde Take a Break. I wonder what its implications are?). It means "childbirth". If you do not know what a word means, please look it up. It will save your time posting and my time having to correct you. Specific steps can be taken to prevent childbirth. The only specific step that can be taken to prevent gun ownership is not buying a gun. Really that simple.
 
  

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