BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Free jazz anyone?

 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
 
COG
21:49 / 27.01.06
@illmatic : it sometimes feels to me like a good joke, where you have no idea where the story is going, but when the punchline is revealed, it seems like there was no other ending possible. Come to think of it there is a running thread of humour within British (especially) improv/jazz which may explain this analogy to some extent. I do end up smiling a lot at these types of concerts.
 
 
Locust No longer
17:17 / 29.01.06
In answering the question of what one finds compelling about free music I'll just give my feelings about an album I'm listening to right now: the saxophonists, Evan Parker and Anthony Braxton's "(1993) duo (London)."

This music isn't immediately appealing. It's a meeting of two disparate and singular players, both of whom have stretched the limits of their instruments, pushing new ground from opposite areas -- Parker is fueled more from the London free improv that he helped originate than Braxton's American free jazz tradition. Yet despite the initial (sometimes) atonal, alienating wallop of immediate creation, they achieve a synthesis. Certainly, the music is difficult because it has no rules or guidelines, but it is also difficult for it is music that requires the listener's active participation. One has to listen to each players contributions, weighing how they influence one another, how one idea will be thrust out and either rejected or followed up on and transformed into something new. It's like a game of hyperspeed chess, where a design evolves from one anothers moves, but unlike in chess there is no winner. What at first sounds like two entirely different strings of thought or some kind of aural battle becomes a balance rising out of chaos. The players set aside egos in order to create a whole. It's terribly exciting if you follow it closely, riding each chirp and curve of note and it's immediate reaction. This is what good improvisation is for me-- musical communication. Not simply between players but where the listener becomes intensely involved with it, attaching meaning, or simply being viscerally moved. I think while non-improvised music can be intensely moving, there is a lack of this instant communication, where anything can happen, where the musicians build off one another's ideas and converse. So, yeah, hopefully that's not too dramatic and makes some sense.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
20:26 / 29.01.06
In the 'songs that made this country great' thread, Illmatic said:

ncidentally, I would love to hear some more experiemental music discussed here. Perhaps someone who's been posting in the free jazz thread could post some Derek Bailey, for instance? I think a bit of context/explanation could work wonders for my understanding of this sort of music.

Just posting this here as I'd also love it someone from here would haev a go with some of the music being discussed here.

Have been following this with interest but almost total ignorance, bar a little bit of Evan Parker, which I came to via digging out for generative music stuff, but it strikes me that locust's posts are pretty much essays already.

Care to educate us?
 
 
illmatic
07:34 / 30.01.06
Thanks for the response, folks.

It's like a game of hyperspeed chess

That's such a cool image.

terribly exciting if you follow it closely

I think this is the key thing for me. This type of dicussion exposes the weaknesses in some of my own patterns of listening. When I listen to music, often half (minimum - sometimes more like 90%) of my attention is elswhere, I'll usually be reading (or doing the washing up, or something similar), my foot abstractly tapping away to the rhythm, waiitng for the hooks. Obviously, I've had experiences of more active listening, and frequently become so involved in the stuff I really enjoy that this overides my lack of attention (listening out for a particluarly hot rhyme in some Hip Hop, say).

I suspect the other key thing for me is the absense of strong melodies and hooks. But I suppose if I junk these expectations then I might be able to access a new type of listening experience. Think I'll I may dig out the Coltrane I've never "got" and give it a go.

(But please - give the STMTCG thing a go. Love to hear some recommendations).
 
 
lord nuneaton savage
07:56 / 30.01.06
My favourite "Free" album (and also I think, one of the most immediately accessible) is Albert Ayler's "Bells". Main reason I love it? It's just so much FUN. Ayler and his cohorts (including his bro' Don) go from slippery free parping to what sound like civil war marches in the blink of an eye. It's exuberant, slightly scary and an utter joy from start to finish.

I've got loads of other faves. More later. GGM if you want me to lend you some stuff or put a tape together for you I'd be more than happy to.
 
 
lord nuneaton savage
10:00 / 30.01.06
On the Coltrane tip; my favourite (although it is a bit of a "love it or hate it" album) is the almighty skronk (love that word) of "Ascension". A mass ensemble of players (including Archie Shepp and Pharoah Saunders) just GOING FOR IT. It starts with the most serene melody being teased out by the horns, passed back and forth between them with utter ease, before erupting into a violent storm of blare and rumble. It's hard to describe how uplifting it is. You'll be punching your fist and laughing out loud at the sheer release. Man, it's good.

Also I notice that no-one has been referred to as a "cat" on this thread. C'mon people, if we're gonna talk jazz let's at least try and use some of the lingo. Daddio.
 
 
illmatic
10:32 / 30.01.06
I have Coltrane's last gig on CD - "The Olatunji Concert" and I've alwys found it really hard work. It sounds like he's trying to melt the saxophone. Waves of dissonance. Will give it another listen and report back.

Groovy. Nice.
 
 
illmatic
15:15 / 30.01.06
I actually went in a record shop on the way home to see if they had Coltrane's "Acension" because I'm implusive like that. They didn't have it, but did I come out empty handed? Did I fuck.
 
 
illmatic
17:05 / 30.01.06
Just listened to "The Olatunji Concert" concert. I actually find it quite exhausting. Anyone else heard it?

The sax sounds a little like a bunch of tiger kittens trapped in a burning building as it collaspse. And it just goes on and on and on, ceaslessly.... it's not a bad thing. I can see there's more to it than mere mindless dissonance but what exactly I'm not sure.

I think I need a lie down.
 
 
m
17:52 / 02.02.06
Illmatic, you might be diving into the deep end with Coltrane's later stuff. I would suggest trying A Love Supreme or Live at the Village Vanguard first. From there you might want to pick up Interstellar Space with Rashid Ali which is maybe one the most incredible duet records ever recorded. It's just two very talented guys with an unlimited amount of ideas at their disposal seemingly commincating telepathically to create some really wonderful music.

Also, you can do no wrong with picking up Mr. Ornette Coleman's Shape of Jazz to Come or Change of the Century. I guarantee that you will like them, and it puts lie to the idea that free jazz ain't catchy or tuneful.
 
 
lord nuneaton savage
08:00 / 03.02.06
DEEP END! DEEP END! DEEP END! DO IIIIIT!
 
 
illmatic
08:24 / 03.02.06
I've done it. I felt very tired afterwards.
 
 
lord nuneaton savage
10:31 / 03.02.06
I know there is a thread devoted to his Godlike Genius elsewhere, but I think you'd probably really enjoy Sun Ra actually. It's more structured (closer to avant-jazz than free-jazz, I reckon) and has a very rock'n'roll feel to it. Loads of people chanting, wearing flower pots on their heads and generally kicking out the jams.

I recommend the "Space is the Place" soundtrack as a good starting point. Also a compilation called "Out There a Minute" that Blast First put out a few years ago. Both are very accessible and a lot of fun.
 
 
m
12:27 / 03.02.06
As accessible as some of Sun Ra's albums are, there are those that are very, very difficult, so pay attention to what you're getting. Space is the Place is great, and I always recommend the Angels and Devils at Play/ Nubians of Plutonia disk and the Visits Planet Earth/ Interstellar Low Ways disk. Both feature some straight ahead swinging big band numbers as well as the spacier pieces and chants. They blew my head off when I first heard them, and instantly made me a fan.
 
 
illmatic
13:55 / 03.02.06
My feelings about the Coltrane were mixed. I could tell there was something happening there, I just wasn't sure what. Possibly like someone who likes landscapes first viewing of abstract expressionist painting. I alos had to really stuggle with unrelenting intensity of it.
 
 
lord nuneaton savage
14:18 / 03.02.06
It is overwhelming, but I think that part of the joy of out-jazz is in the moment when you give in. Accepting that you are going to be overwhelmed and hitting a kind of fugue state. Just letting it wash over you. It's like being scourged by fire and LOVING it.

Still not sure whether you can shag to it though...anyone?
 
 
Locust No longer
21:02 / 04.02.06
The Olatunji concert is probably the harshest stuff Coltrane has out at this point. I really dig it, purely for the eviscerating nature of it -- the blasted out, gritty sound, the paint peeling sax screams, the endless fugue-like drumming... fuck yeah.

But, yeah, it's not the place to start with 'Trane. It's certainly not the disc I reach for first when I want to hear him play free or otherwise. If you want to slowly break into his free stuff, I think it'd be best to start out of with some of the other recommendations listed above like Live at the Village Vangaurd vol. 2.

The Songs that Made This Country Great for free jazz/improv would be difficult. I think it's harder not to have lyrics to riff off of. But I think it could be interesting and I may try my hand at it when I have some time. Not with Bailey, as he's probably too immediately alienating. I'm not sure I really dig the button down nature of discussion of STMTCG for this music (or maybe any music)... maybe cuz free jazz/improv is often so messy and abstract, passionate and freewheeling. We'll see.
 
 
illmatic
21:13 / 04.02.06
Cheers guys. I have "Live at the Village Vanguard 2" (another record I've not paid full attention to) so I'll stick it on.

Incidentally, this months' copy of The Wire has a big tribute to the late Derek Bailey. The testimonals (some not published in the mag) can be found here
 
 
Locust No longer
15:30 / 10.03.06
Sad news: An excellent free jazz trumpeter, Raphe Malik, died on March 8th. I have never been a big jazz trumpet fan, but Malik was really amazing. He had a very lyrical and bright sound that could be both incredibly fierce and beautiful; he would often conjure up burning, melodic lines in his solos that would skip over the top of the music like a stone. He was a unique voice within free jazz and sadly underappreciated. In his early career, he was a member of Cecil Taylor's compact and bashing 70s units, while also serving time with Jimmy Lyons. Apparently when Cecil Taylor was asked who some good trumpet players were in the US he said Malik was the only one worth looking out for. His later work with his own groups or with Sabir Mateen and Glenn Spearman is less known unfortunately, as it is some really scorching and powerful stuff. Personally, his work with Spearman on the Eremite label was pretty revelatory when I was first getting into free jazz. It's too bad that his life was a constant struggle and his music never got the esteem it deserved. Here's a link to an older interview with him that explains a bit of his history; he was interesting guy:

malikinterview
 
 
Locust No longer
15:16 / 06.12.07
Hmm... I haven't been listening to much free jazz in the last couple years, moving my listening to to more non-idiomatic electro acoustic music by the likes of Sachiko M, Axel Doerner, Keith Rowe, Tomas Korber, while tentatively plumbing the depths of 20th century composition (along with the prerequisite doses of metal, punk and rock) . While I still really enjoy a lot of the music from Coltrane, Ayler, Evan Parker and Frank Wright, I really don’t listen to much of the modern day free jazz any more, feeling that it is increasingly scraping a barrel that has run creatively dry since the 70s. It’s strange to find much of what I originally found utteraly compelling – non-stop, hyperactive interaction and blasting screams over unfettered 40 minute long pieces – to be less than interesting now as I’ve gotten far more into improvised music with wider dynamics, texture, and tonal shifts. That being said I went to an excellent concert by Sonore (Ken Vandermark, Peter Brotzmann, Mats Gustaffson) last night that helped revitalize some of my interest in the free jazz. A trio of reeds doesn’t sound like the best idea on paper, especially when you realize it’s going to be a freely improvised trio, but surprisingly it turned out be a great time. Sure, there were the standard blistering screaming from all three reedists, but there was also a surprising amount of restraint and dynamics to the songs; at one point Brotzmann even played a sour and moving melody over a backdrop of undulating baritone sax from Vandermark and Gustaffson. The pieces were short enough to not feel as though it was falling too far into the masturbatory escapades that Brotzmann can find himself gleefully partaking in, and all of them played like they were actually having fun and trying to explore some new territory that didn’t just revolve around the atavistic pummel. I haven’t seen a good Brotzmann performance in a couple years, but this one was great. I’m going to see him again on Friday, so we shall see if streak continues.

Not only that, but I’ve been getting into a fantastic reedist from Germany named Frank Gratkowski, as well; he can run the gamut of moods, from fierce, absurdly chaotic free jazz honking to subtle, ear massaging exploration at the drop of a felt hat. He has a wonderful disc called “Arrears” on Red Toucan records with a bassist and pianist that I would definitely recommend – reminding me of beautifuly free improvised chamber jazz. There’s also a newer disc with Gratkowski and Misha Mengleberg on Leo Records that makes me remember how goddamn funny some of this music can be. Mengleberg plays all the wrong notes at all the times he shouldn’t; it’s as though some drunk guy shambled on stage and found a piano to plink plonk over the keys in a perverse “Oi, I can play too” fashion, until suddenly sobering up and unleashing torrents of cascading virtuostic runs, only to again fall back to playing fucked up, broken fingered chopsticks, all the while Gratkowski emotes over it all in somber funereal bass clarinet.

Another recommendation: Evan Parker has realeased an absolutely killer disc with Chris Corsano and John Edwards called “A Glancing Blow” on Clean Feed, which I’ve been listening to lately on my increasingly frozen walks to my soul crushing job. I’ve always been half convinced by Corsano’s stuff, thinking he may be a tad overrated when there are equally great younger players out there like Paal Nielson Love not being noticed half as much (probably due to them not having ties to the psych/noise scenes). But Corsano is really great on this one, dissecting Parker’s lines and really pushing him into increasingly jazzier territory. Edwards, as usual, is fucking great – all oaken handed bass warrior, plucking strings like they’re the trunks of saplings and dishing out huge throbbing earth-mass drones. Dig it.
 
 
Seth
16:36 / 06.12.07
To really appreciate Corsano you have to see him perform a solo set. His imagination and range are astonishing, as are his uses of happy accidents and resourcefulness. When I get a chance later I'll dig out some You Tube links for the solo set he played at the 2006 Palimpsest Festival.

Agreed on 'A Glancing Blow.' It's ace.
 
 
Locust No longer
17:44 / 06.12.07
Cool, that would be appreciated.

I've seen him once already with Paul Flaherty, Thurston Moore and Jim O'Rourke and thought he was alright, but in general thought he didn't have much to work with-- Moore and O'Rourke were pretty terrible. I would love to see him and the rest of the Cold Bleak Heat fellers, as that's a great band.
 
 
Locust No longer
17:53 / 06.12.07
Oh yeah, I spelled Misha Mengelberg's name wrong. So. Yeah.
 
 
Seth
23:03 / 06.12.07
Chris Corsano Palimpsest Festival Part 1
Chris Corsano Palimpsest Festival Part 2
Chris Corsano Palimpsest Festival Part 3
Chris Corsano Palimpsest Festival Part 4
Chris Corsano Palimpsest Festival Part 5

Enjoy. He's a bit of a hero. If you look carefully you'll be able to see Pin, Bandini, RichT and myself over by the far speaker in the front two pews.

Lovely church.
 
 
Locust No longer
14:01 / 07.12.07
Thanks.

He's definitely a showman and can circular breathe too. Seeing him in this is definitely preferable to how I saw him. He is very inventive; his dexterity and stamina are incredible. He's definitely a different player than Nilssen-Love. I like both a lot. Hopefully, I'll be able to see Corsano again soon.

Off topic a little, but I was just listening to Rashied Ali and Frank Lowe's "Duo Exchange" from 1973 and realized how exciting it was again. There is something about the older free jazz cats that the newer generation just don't have to my ears. Maybe it's just the utter thrill of exploration and defiance, mixed with often gritty punk production in so much of the stuff back from the 60s-70s. And it could be a combination of both the newness of the music, the often better chops and the African-American jazz tradition most of them came from. I don't know, but I certainly don't get the same feeling when listening to Paul Flaherty's newest blowout than an old Frank Wright album. Of course, I also get the same feeling with earlier European free improv from Brotzmann, Evan Parker and John Stevens.
 
 
simulated stereo
22:02 / 09.01.08
I've been listening to a lot of Pharoah Sanders lately. He played with both Sun Ra (around '64) and John Coltrane (65-67).

Pharoah's first album was released on ESP Disk (love that label) in '65.

Some other great albums are:

"Karma". Impulse, 1969. A lot of peace and love, especially with the lyrics that pop up. Definitely of its time, but brilliant.

"Black Unity". Impulse, 1971. For Black Unity, Pharoah mixed in some traditional African as well as Native American instruments.
 
 
Locust No longer
13:24 / 01.12.08
Yeah man, Pharoah is tops. I definitely dig Izipho Zam -- those crazy 70s pseudo african ullulations and chants on "Prince of Peace" mixed with the brutal solos and burn of the title track is an awesome mix. Definitely an excellent free jazz 70s slab. Oh yeah, Sonny Sharrock I think is on it, and just blazes.

Pharoah's stuff with Alice Coltrane is really worth checking out as well. Just mind bending stuff that skirts free jazz and Indian music with that 70s afro soul. So good.

You're right, ESP is a nice label. I picked up Frank Wright's newer album a year or so ago, "Center of the World," which is basically the Center of the world quartet -- Alan Silva, Bobby Few and Muhammad Ali (one of my favorite quartets in free jazz). Apparently ESP is back in operation and releasing a few new albums and reissuing a lot of crucial shit, which if anyone reading this (yeah, right) is at all interested in zonked out, fucked up late 60s-70s instrumental music you should check out. Also, they release(d) a fair amount of equally fucked up pysch/folk/white boy weirdness from that time period like Godz. Frank Wright's stuff is all killer but pretty hardcore and I would recommend the Center of the World stuff or "Your Prayer" rather than his first record (although I think they reissued both together). Marion Brown and Sonny Simmons have some really good albums reissued on it too that I would pick up. There's such palpable energy on those early discs, such emotion that really can't be paralleled by any of the free jazz cats now except for a few notable exceptions like Weasel Walters groups (check out his myspace asap) and the Corsano/Paul Flaherty/Wally Shoup axis. And even then, it just ain't the same... The use of the studio in the 60s-70s was notably different and they experimented with overloading the channels and compression: cats like Marzette Watts apparently had a lot of crazy wall of sound things he did on those analog sessions (it goes without saying that his own album is killer).
 
 
simulated stereo
21:28 / 09.12.08
I've been listening to and really enjoying Roscoe Mitchell's album Sound from 1966. Really good stuff. Anyone else heard this one?
 
 
Locust No longer
03:10 / 18.12.08
I guess we're the only two in this thread. But, yeah, I've heard it. It's a great one. The use of toy instruments and space is really great. Mitchell is also a killer instrumentalist, very powerful. His work in the Art Ensemble can be wonderful. I think they just released a pretty crucial document of his 70s work solo and in duo called,"Nonaah," which so far I have only heard on mp3 but will definitely pick up when I can.
 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
  
Add Your Reply