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Free jazz anyone?

 
  

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gravity's rainbow
08:26 / 14.10.02
so here I am exploring a bunch of freethinking indiviual types and I'm wondering if anyone's into that minority in a minority music, free jazz?
where I live there's a massively vibrant free jazz scene, with our own free jazz dedicated venue, but as soon as I step outta my front door I'm hit with a wave of ignorance and the realisation that I am, as a free jazz listener, a minority within a minority.
I mean, do anyone but free jazz musicians listen to the stuff?
 
 
jUne, a sunshiny month
08:38 / 14.10.02
I mean, do anyone but free jazz musicians listen to the stuff?
nope, i don't play anything (but turntables, or at least, i'm tryin...) and i enjoy a few free jazz, even if the domain seems big and dangerous ground for the non-full-inside-jazz headz...
now, jazz headz, for its more important part, aren't doin' anything for making newcomers feels at ease, so when, as you tell, you're jumping into a minority in a minority, well... not this easy, uh.
what/who do u listen at the moment ?
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
11:20 / 14.10.02
I guess the only classically "free jazz" stuff I listen to is Ornette Coleman. I don't know that much about what could be termed free - except that maybe some of Miles' 70s albums hit the mark - I like them too. But hey, I don't play it - I lack the aptitude.

Got some pointers?

And, while you're at it, a threat abstract?
 
 
The Strobe
12:15 / 14.10.02
Yeah - could someone give me a relatively precise definition of free jazz? I listen to a fair bit of jazz and know my way around it... but without names I'm a bit stuck.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:46 / 14.10.02
where I live there's a massively vibrant free jazz scene, with our own free jazz dedicated venue, but as soon as I step outta my front door I'm hit with a wave of ignorance and the realisation that I am, as a free jazz listener, a minority within a minority.

Hang on, so your *house* has a vibant free jazz scene and its own dedicated venue? Is that the living room? The spare bedroom? It must get *awfy* noisy...
 
 
Locust No longer
19:15 / 14.10.02
Well, I listen to a ton of free jazz. People like William Parker, Peter Brotzmann, Glenn Spearman, Sunny Murray, Early Archie Shepp, Late John Coltrane, Raphe Malik, and much more. I've found that even though I don't really play any instruments, free jazz is highly interesting to me. William Parker wrote that free jazz, and improvised music in general, doesn't need to be understood in the technical sense, but only as music. Basically he was saying if it sounds cool then it is cool, and I firmly believe that. I listen to drone and noise records, too. It sounds interesting to me, I don't need to "understand" what the players are doing. If I like it, I like it. It's really as simple as that. However, I am not saying knowing how to play an instrument does not heighten the appreciation of someone elses playing. I'm sure it does for some people, it just doesn't matter tremendously to me when I'm listening to some skronk. Good free jazz in my opinion is all about passion. When I listen to Charles Gayle or David S. Ware screech and scream I hear passion, and love. I am emotionally involved with it. I can't ask for anything more than that.

I'll write some of my favorite free jazz and improvised music albums that I would recommend.

Peter Brotzmann's "Machine Gun" FMP records
"Nipples" Atavistic
 
 
Locust No longer
19:22 / 14.10.02
Whoops, here's some more:

Evan Parker/Paul Bley/Barre Phillips "Sanct Gerald" ECM

Sunny Murray/Sabir Mateen "We are not at the Opera" Eremite

Charles Gayle "Repent" Knitting Factory

Alexander Von Schlippenbach "The Living Music" and "Hunting the Snake" Both on Atavistic

Derek Bailey "Ballads" Tzadik

Derek Bailey/Barre Phillips "Figuring" Incus (i think)

Raphe Malik Quartet "Companions" Eremite

John Coltrane/Rashied Ali "Interstellar Space" Impulse

The DKV trio "Live in Chicago" Okka

Han Bennink "Solo" (I forget which label)

Trio Hurricane "Live at Fire in the Valley" Eremite

Peter Kowald (RIP) "Was Das Ist?" FMP and "Duos" FMP

David S. Ware "Flight of I" Some japanese label

These are just a few....
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
22:38 / 14.10.02
Hmm. I spose The Necks possibly fits into FJ loosely - though there's no reeds... it IS all about passion, however.
 
 
gravity's rainbow
04:06 / 15.10.02
don't get me wrong on the "do only musos listen to free jazz" angle, I'm no muso myself. I do manage a jazz sextet who usually end up in free territory and I've learned a hell of a lot working and touring with them (check out www.clbob.co.nz )
Locustetc. I'm surprised and gladdened to see such an expanding musical collection. I've only got Interstellar Space from that lot, but I do have some other William Parker and Even Parker albums. I met Evan Parker and hung out with him for a night a couple years back at our local jazz festival - one very, very astute, sharp cat.
My recommendation usually points towards Cecil Taylor, solo or otherwise (ever checked out Indent or Winged Serpent?)
as for defining free jazz, well, that's kinda like defining postmodernism. one can head that way by saying it's a form of music based entirely on improvisation, and you'll be getting a feel for some of it, but by no means. Forgive me if I'm wary of this one, I've been asked to define it before and been brought up sharply by some free muso in the conversation. the best way to get a grip is by listening to the man who invented the term, Ornette Coleman. Get a hold of his classic Free Jazz album nad compare it to its contemporaries.
and as for Machiine gun, well hell, even the hardcore freers round these parts have to nod at that one.
 
 
gravity's rainbow
04:14 / 15.10.02
oh, and when I say "where I live" Haus, I mean the city that I inhabit

hmm . . . now there's an interesting point, locust, the free jazz is all about passion. in my experience there is a fairly tense balance between passion and intellectualism. these musos are balancing between screaming barbarians tearing down the aural walls and careful, calculated mathmaticians

(note here that the band I manage were once known as jazz terrorists amongst the media - that's pre-twin towers)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:54 / 15.10.02
Your entire *city* is behind your front door? What is it, the bottled city of Kandor?

Sorry. Stopped now.
 
 
Rollo Kim, on location
09:01 / 15.10.02
Have to say I am a total nut for free jazz drumming (William Hooker, Prevost / AMM etc) - to the extent that I bought a drum kit and 'done the free thing' on it as a form of exercise if nothing else, but I am a little bit involved with some free musicians (there's a fairly healthy Liverpool scene) and a 'global sound collective': http://www.schvtrn.river7.net/, and a tiny record label that's just started up who put out improv stuff: http://www.tar-online.co.uk/

Is it the closest thing to music in a liquid form? Splitting the atom of sound... maaaaaannn.....
 
 
Locust No longer
16:43 / 22.10.02
I like Cecil Taylor, but gravitate more to his early stuff than later, more chaotic, albums. Although, the best album I've heard by Taylor is his later duo with Tony Oxley called "Leaf Palm Hand." I like Crispell, as well. I've got her duo with Gerry Hemingway which is neato, but I can't get into it as much as someone like Schlippenbach. I really enjoy Fred Van Hove's playing; Atavistic has just released a two cd set of his eary stuff which I'm dieing to get my hands on.

Free jazz drumming is some of the best ever, I love guys like Sunny Murray, and Andrew Cyrille. You're right, Rollo, Eddie Prevost is really amazing, too. Have you heard his work in the Free Jazz Quartet? It's great, straight ahead free jazz, more combustive and jazzy(duh) than AMM.
 
 
Neo-Paladin
11:11 / 23.10.02
It can be a challenge but listening to free jazz can be an eye opener to other forms of expression. As an alto player I have always been a fan of Ornette Coleman's. Free Jazz and the classic albums of his from the 50s and 60s are some of the most uplifting and inspiring pieces of music on record. Eric Dolphy wan't half bad too!

But I need to listen to more players by the looks of the other posts!
 
 
at the scarwash
21:42 / 23.10.02
In my opinion, good free jazz really isn't challenging. Good free jazz is made by ensembles that know each other really well, and are really good musicians in a sense beyond technical aptitude. Like everyone says, take Ornette. When he decides to make a sharp left turn, the entire band is right behind him like a Peckinpah carchase. And they all had a head for hooks. Almost any solo from The Shape of Jazz to Come or Free Jazz is full of enough excellent musical ideas to write half an album of catchy pop songs. Thanks, now "Congeniality" is stuck in my head.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
23:00 / 23.10.02
How different is Free Jazz from The Shape Of Jazz To Come? I mean - the structure's two long pieces, right? Does it work moreso than the more episodic TSOJTC or not?

And what's the next good Ornette disc to get? I've got Ornette On Tenor which isn't really doing it for me - but am tempted by Change Of The Century, say...
 
 
Locust No longer
16:17 / 24.10.02
Ornette's "At The Golden Circle in Stockholm Vol. 1" is an excellent disc.
 
 
at the scarwash
19:12 / 25.10.02
I prefer The Shape of Jazz To Come. Maybe due to short attention span. Also, perhaps Shape is not quite as free-form. Ornette was at least humming something on the way to the studio. Just the same, Free Jazz is well worth having. As for the next disc you get, I recommend the Naked Lunch OST. It was my first Ornette, fairly recent, and I wore a hole in the goddamned CD. Denardo Coleman is a great drummer as a grown up.
 
 
De Selby
09:14 / 28.10.02
The only free jazz I've heard, is Peter Brotzmann - Machine Gun.

Jazz Terrorists, eh?

You should give this cd a listen. Rips a hole in your ears. Noisy noisy music.


lovely.
 
 
Locust No longer
01:36 / 15.01.06
Hmm... well, I thought I would dredge this thread up rather than start a new one because one of the most important/challenging musicians in the "free" realm passed away not long ago, Derek Bailey. While Mr. Bailey would certainly be pissed to be called a "free jazz" musician, most likely preferring something like non-indiomatic improv, there is no doubt that he had a tremendous impact on contemporary free music as well as many other genres and musicians ranging from Pat Metheny to the Ruins to Melt Banana. I think it's unfortunate that his death will not be as noticed as it should by the general music scene as his approach to the guitar has been one of the most revolutionary both during and after Hendrix. I'm glad I got to see him at least once when he was still in his prime, playing a spiky, throbbing duo performance with Milo Fine in London's Flim Flam club. It was definitely one of the most amazing performances I've scene (considered an average affair by his luckier fans). I would recommend checking him out if you haven't. Check out his label Incus at

He's probably one of the most difficult but rewarding musicians I've ever heard and he will be truly missed. In a way, hearing him for the first time was like hearing Crass or Conflict for the first time, alientating, scary, and tremendously powerful. He not only changed how I heard but how I listened.
 
 
m
19:15 / 24.01.06
Bailey was one of those artists that I flat out hated when I first heard him, but stuck in my head and irritated me enough to have me return to his records again and again. I grew to like him, but I never thought that he warranted the ridiculously huge output of records that are out there. Three different records by Mr.Bailey in varied settings should be enough scrabbling for anyone's collection.
 
 
Totem Polish
22:03 / 24.01.06
I've always been fascinated by guys like Evan Parker and Derek Bailey but somehow found listening to their music a cold and alienating experience, as if they were playing to demonstrate a point and that the passion they put into this point was all we deserved.

This is in contrast to Ornette Coleman and Cecil Taylor who to me both contain a lot of playfulness and a bubbling passion that was enticing and not overwhelming and eventually numbing like their English counterparts.

Is their anything in the Bailey or Parker canon that would fit with the above mentioned American guys?

Oh yeah, and am I alone in thinking that Cecil Taylor and Keith Jarrett are remarkably similar in sound sometimes? Always confuses me that...
 
 
Locust No longer
23:33 / 25.01.06
Ah, I've heard the argument that Bailey has more than enough out there. I think you can say that about many musicians out there. And, yes, he does have a very healthy discography available, but the depth and variety of that discography is immense: from his bombastic, feedback laden dust ups with the Ruins, to his introspective and beautiful covers of old show tunes on "Ballads," to his break your head open and eat your brain attacks of his early work with Brotzmann- it's all very different. In general, his style (or non style) doesn't really change but his approaches do and that's why he's so amazing playing with others. I guess, to say his style doesn't change isn't entirely either. One can certainly hear how his approach to the instrument has changed from his early Webernesque playing to his volume swelling, angular work of the last few years. I'm no expert, and I have to admit I'm less likely to pick up a solo of his than a collaboration but I think of many musicians who put disc after disc, Bailey is one of the most compelling and, taking into his productive last 10 years, one of the most consistantly interesting. So now that he's gone, I'm more than thankful that he's as well documented as he is (mostly due to his own label). Of course, like any musician, he has a few duds in his catalogue but the good far out weighs the bad, IMHO.
 
 
Locust No longer
23:50 / 25.01.06
Totem- I will agree with you that a lot of later Bailey and Parker is more cerebral souding than passionate. I think Bailey can certainly be very alienating due simply to his non-idiomatic playing. But I don't think anyone would accuse him of not being playful. He would often interupt himself on stage and launch into stories or jokes and just be an all around obnoxious but lovable codger. I heard once that when he was playing with some other musicians he got bored and put down his guitar and started eating an apple while rubbing a contact mike against his throat. I think he found a lot of the high seriousness of free improv to be a load of bullshit, and that's probably why he loved playing with goof balls like Han Bennink, Tristan Honsinger and John Zorn. Whether that playfulness comes through in a lot of recordings is debateable. I think you would dig his stuff with any of three mentioned above. Parker and Bailey were also in some of the most fiery and passionate recordings ever with Peter Brotzmann like "Machine Gun," and "Nipples," both of which I would heartly recommend. Brotzmann definitely pushed them in a direction they were not readily used to. It's probably why they didn't work together much after the late '60s. They made some fucking huge records though that are must for anyone into dangerous, ferocious music.
 
 
Locust No longer
23:54 / 25.01.06
Oh, and as for Taylor and Jarrett sounding similar-- I don't think so myself. I could never stand Jarrett (his vocalizations are fucking atrocious and he's a bit of an asshole) but he does definitely have his own style on the piano. Taylor is a monster on piano.
 
 
m
18:43 / 26.01.06
As far as free jazz guitarists go, Sonny Sharrock's Black Woman record is the best thing I've ever heard him involved with. I've been fairly disappointed by a lot his solo stuff, but there's just no screwing around on Black Woman. It's thirty or so minutes of pure goodness.
 
 
m
19:00 / 26.01.06
And concerning the cerebral nature of the Parker, Bailey, etc....With the european players the emphasis has always been on the free and not on the jazz. Conservative critics such as Stanley Crouch have even argued that the europeans' lack of grounding in blues traditions really qualifies them as improvisational players, but not as jazz musicians. What do you all think?
 
 
Locust No longer
02:32 / 27.01.06
Shit I know I'm writing a lot in this thread but...

Well, I think that Derek Bailey was never really free jazz, although he certainly came from a jazz background. He was always trying to throw off the baggage of jazz and blues (and classical and country, etc), and in reaction spearheaded a "non-idiomatic free improv" that, in theory, had no basis in anything at all. One can argue, like Eugene Chadbourne has, how "non-idiomatic" music can truly exist without simply being another musical straight jacket, but that's another topic altogether

Evan Parker has always had a basis in jazz (among other things), especially later Coltrane, and has never fully abandoned it (curiously, one can hear it more in his later work than his earlier stuff). However, his take on jazz has always been radically sifted through a post-war european avant garde filter. There's definitely very little blues in Parker. It's interesting though, Parker can sound pretty jazz based when he wants to, particularly when he plays with the more free jazz based musicians like Alexander Von Schlippenbach and Joe McPhee.

John Stevens, one of the stalwarts of the Euro free improv scenes, had a viscious free jazz back bone, as well. While he was plumbing the depths of minutely detailed free improv in the Spontaneous Music Ensemble he was still thrashing away in free-bop bands like Amalgam with Trevor Watts.

Han Bennink, Peter Brotzmann, and Willem Breuker (among others) all started playing straight ahead jazz and largely haven't really diverged from free jazz over the years. Brotzmann makes no bones about his love and admiration for Albert Ayler. His music is pure gut churning Ayler-worship ground up in a dadaist stew.

On the other hand, the current improv scene, at least in London, seems divided but weighed heavily on the free improv side of things. There are guys like Tony Bevan, Alan Wilkinson and Paul Dunmall that are still very free jazz oriented but the majority of the new free musicians like John Butcher, Mark Wastell, Phil Durrant and Rhodri Davies are not based in jazz at all and have far more affinity for Morton Feldman or Xenakis than Albert Alyer. This may be because they are simply younger than the first generation free improvers like Parker, Stevens and Bailey. Their influences come not necessarily from jazz and free jazz as they do from the innovations of the first generation and adding a even more Euro bend to them.

Frankly, I think there's tons of good stuff coming out in Europe. I think I probably listen to more European free improv than Euro or American free jazz. Free improv and it's off shoots (reductionist improv, electro acoustic improv, blah blah blah) have become part of a avant garde tradition in Europe that has never really caught on in the US as jazz and thus free jazz has. There's certainly a ton of great stuff coming out at the moment. It's hard to tell when it will simply become stale and what new trend will take over. But it seems to be moving faster in Europe and Japan than the US at the moment.
 
 
m
05:11 / 27.01.06
Reductionist improv is a new one on me. Is that what those guys blowing into the mouthpiece caps of their saxophones are calling it? That shit drives me crazy.
 
 
m
05:44 / 27.01.06
Gotta say that I've always been drawn more to that transitional period in jazz when everyone's trying to figure out how they're going to deal with Ornette's ideas. You get folks putting Dolphy on their record as some kind of go between to the avant-garde, and the huge contrasts between the players is really exciting and strange.

Oh, by the way, have you seen the documentary "Imagine the Sound"? It's got some amazing footage of Cecil Taylor going at it on this gi-normous grand piano in a completely white room, as well as some good interviews and performances from Archie Shepp and Bill Dixon. Paul Bley is on there too, but next to Cecil he just comes out looking overly restrained and out of place.
 
 
Locust No longer
14:56 / 27.01.06
M--, No I haven't seen that doc. It sounds cool. I'm still trying to get a hold of the "Rising Tone Cross" documentary which has a bunch of stuff from the bassist Peter Kowald's time in NYC, where he played with Frank Wright, John Zorn and a bunch of others of the free jazz loft era. It's supposedly pretty badass.

Reductionist improv is pretty much what you described. Although, some would argue SO MUCH MORE! but whatever. It's a pretty radical experiment I would say. I think it was really just a reaction towards the overly busy imrov that came before it. Some of it I adore like Mark Wastell's work with Rhodri Davies (an amazing harpist everyone should check out) and various Axel Dorner collaborations. The term is also applied to a lot of the Japanese musicians like Sachiko M, Taku Sugimoto, Tetuzi Akiyama and Toshimaru Nakamura, although their stuff is very different and, IMO, far more interesting than a lot of the European reductionist stuff. Actually, if any musician really deserves the tag "reductionist" it's Sugimoto, whose guitar work has gone from beautiful, almost melodic improvisations to five note-an-hour stopwatch compositions. In general, I think it's a pretty overused term at this point and has ceased to adequately describe the music. There's an article in an old issue of the Wire called "New London Silence" that gives an interesting look at some musicians of the London reductionist contigent. But I think most people have given up on the thing, Wastell has a new disc coming out with the Basque-based computer feedback musician, Mattin, called "Reductionism Is Dead" or something like that. Again, whatever.

I agree with you that the supposedly post-innovation era in jazz when Dolphy was around is one of the most interesting. Dolphy remains one of my favorite reeds players ever. His solos are so amazing and I don't think anyone has really been able to imitate his approach. Marion Brown and Sonny Simmons did some cool work at that period, as well. The BYG Actuel and ESP labels put out a ton of that stuff where people were coming to grips with the new freedom but also exploring african instruments and rythms. Some of it wasn't too good, but a lot of it was fantastic and hasn't been matched since.
 
 
m
16:13 / 27.01.06
I've seen Rising Tones Cross, and it's a real interesting examination of the american free jazz scene in the hard years of the late 70's. Everybody in the documentary seems completely down and out and bitter (except maybe Kowald). You know, the rise of rock hit the american jazz players real hard, and a lot of those guys ended up strung out, dying or disappeared; was the european scene similarly affected at that time?
 
 
Locust No longer
18:13 / 27.01.06
Hmm. So Rising Tone Cross is worth checking out then? I never got see either Kowad or Wright play so it would be cool to at least see some visual documentation.

As for the European scene at that time, I really don't know if they were hit as hard as the Americans were. I'm sure it was always a big struggle for them, simply because their music was so uncommercial (although AMM did play with Pink Floyd in the beginning). Although, they had a public far more likely to appreciate what they did than musicians in the US. Derek Bailey's bio by Ben Watson is a good place to find out some info on that scene in those days and, if you can get past a lot of the Marxist polemic, is an interesting read.
 
 
illmatic
18:40 / 27.01.06
The only things I've ever heard by Derek Bailey are two tracks on a David Toop guitar compliation called "Upper Clapton Nocturne" and "Lower Clapton Nocture" which features Bailey plinging away to some drum and bass from a local pirate station. It's fucking great.

I'd like to check out some of his stuff but I don't know if I'd like it. I find that with a lot of "free music", I like a lot of the ideas but I feel like my ears aren't endurance tested for the dischord. Perhaps I could learn to love it? For those who do like this sort of stuff, what is it precisely that appeals? I know that's a stupidly open ended question but what is it that you hear in - say - Bailey's playing that makes it so appealing?
 
 
m
20:15 / 27.01.06
I guess this goes back to the "do only free jazz musicians listen to free jazz" question at the top of thread, but having dabbled in improv music for a while I really appreciate the sheer number of ideas and unusual solutions that Bailey and others are able to generate on the spot. When it's good, improv music generates the same kind of thrill that one would get from watching an escape artist, kind of a "how's he gonna get out of this one" feeling. In fact, when I first started listening to free jazz it gave me the same sense of anything-can-happen excitement that I used to get when I started going to punk rock shows way back when.
 
  

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