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Ok, why were the Invisibles not good guys, and Sir Miles not a bad guy?

 
  

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Jack Denfeld
04:22 / 11.10.02
Just wondering on specifics. I mean I get the whole "They were all just pieces of the same game" thing, but on the other hand didn't Sir Miles hunt people down and murder them? And for the most part didn't the Invisibles only use violence when trying to protct innocent people?
 
 
The Natural Way
07:31 / 11.10.02
Look...in the first, "earthly" volume of the book, yes! there are goodies and baddies. The Invisibles *is* a war...and then it starts to change shape depending on who's viddying it and then the nagging feeling dawns that we're actually looking at something else entirely.

See Mr. Six's little chat with the rest of Division X in the final days of vol 3, Or Black Science 2 or American Death Camp (where the process of fudging and muddying really begins).....

So, Sir Miles is simultaneously a "baddie", a "goodie" an interdimensional chesspiece and a vital component/operation of a spell designed to draw down Horus. Whatever you like. But you can't access the "higher" stuff until you put away vol 1 dualism - Vol 3 logic simply doesn't accomodate that mode of thinking.

Some clues: the eclipse; the nigredo; the Black Grail; the Yellow King and his servitors/the Harlequinade; the ectoplasm; the memeplex; the borderlands where the Invisible College segues into the Outer Church; Sabaoth annhilates all opposites"; Horus born in blood and death and fire.....but "maybe it was just Mum and Dad fucking".
 
 
dlotemp
11:22 / 11.10.02
Also bear in mind 2 other points.

1) Miles was an Invisible so perhaps the good and bad division is meaningless in an organization that sanctions such conflicting behavior.

2) Miles's basic intentions were the same as King Mob and company but he became hung up on the Archon side. Each of the Invisibles - really, each of us - must go through a perpetual initiation into the universe. See Ken Wilber books for some fascinating ideas on that. This initiation also affects the way we view the world. Well, Miles became stuck in the Archon path, but if he keep traveling he would have eventually entered the Invisible college. He would have engage and incorporated the Archons into his world view, like Jack does, and overcome their limitations and faults.

The overall point being - yeah, he did awful things - but in the broader view he was just one of us anyway.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:00 / 11.10.02
Who's to say when Miles was merrily swinging from the gibbet, the doors to the Invisible college didn't swing open?

At that point he'd achieved his Black Grail - completed his mission. Ornothocrasi closed her iron jaws around him, but he didn't mind: he was only being born.

And all that invisible jazz....
 
 
The Natural Way
12:04 / 11.10.02
It all sounds so quaint now, don't it?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
12:20 / 11.10.02
ooooo, i know!
 
 
Jack Fear
12:55 / 11.10.02
...didn't Sir Miles hunt people down and murder them?

So did King Mob. He's an assassin, for fuck's sake: that's kind of what assassins do.

And for the most part didn't the Invisibles only use violence when trying to protct innocent people?

Define "innocent." Your underlying assumption--that some people just deserve to die, while some people deserve protection--is pure binary either/or thinking, when the whole point of the series is that binary distinctions are an illusion.
 
 
--
13:44 / 11.10.02
Interestingly enough Sir Miles was a character I liked a lot. When he first appears he seems to be pure evil. But when he interrogates King Mob later on in Volume 1 and you see a flashback into his mind to when he was a young boy, you sense his guilt for taking part in the killing of the fox. This made him seem more human then the other Archon agents.

Towards the end of Volume 2 you see him talking to Colonel Friday in a dream and we see Miles' reluctance to be transformed at the Outer Church: He seems to not want to lose his humanity.

In Volume 3 we see he still has human emotions: guilt towards his killing of Queen Mab, as evidenced by the flowers he leaves at her grave (which contradicts his talk with Tarquin about killing your emotions and treating other people like cattle). Later it is revealed that he wrote a book called "The Invisibles"... And it appears he takes orders from the King of the Yellow scarves, who according to Mr. 6 is the Invisibles secret chief. Both sides work for the same 4D entity. And in his flashback where Miles says he has "No compassion" while holding Queen Mab's bloody hand, a pained expression on his face... I doubt he had no compassion.

when Helga interrogates Miles she mentions that when Miles was young he searched for the Invisibles but ended up on the side of the Archons. I think maybe Miles did find the Invisibles but got so lost in his cover story he forgot what side he was really on (see Boy explaining this to Jack in volume 1, issue 5, about Invisible agents who get so paranoid they forget they're Invisible agents).

One comment that interested me was Mr. 6's remark about the anti-masons, a fictional group created to aid in the derangement of an old eton man, initial M? I think he was referring to Miles. I think the Invisibles intended for for Miles to join the Conspiracy (so a fictional anti-masonry group was created) because somehow they (the harlequinade) knew that they would need Sir Miles to call down Rex Mundi in 1999 so that Jack could defeat him and usher in the age of Horus(I think John A'Dreams joined the other side mainly to help move this along). Sir Miles didn't realize he was a pawn until the very end.

That's why I feel he was actually an Invisible.

(And how much of an order-loving right-wing nutcase can you be if you read Phil Hine, a confirmed chaos magician? And the Invisbles love chaos). Just seeing him buy that book set up my alerts.
 
 
dlotemp
20:23 / 11.10.02
I think Sypha has some worthy ideas on the topic. I'd like to add a nifty piece of information. Many of us assumed that the Anti-masons were a fictional group, but I've seen at least one reference to an actual organization called the Anti-masons who existed in America from at least the late 19th to early 20th century. Apparently, President Millard Fillmore was an anti-mason. My reference said they eventually where absorbed into another political party. Unfortunately, I don't have the book handy.

But to summarize most of the other posts - The Invisibles were more than just good or bad. They used the forces of that dialectic, among others, to futher their goals.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
09:15 / 13.10.02
King Mob was as much an assassin as The Terminator. He was kill happy, but who did he assassinate? And when I say innocent, I mean things like the Invisibles were going to places to do things like liberate the AIDS vaccine for people who did not know they were part of a huge cosmic game, while Sir Miles hunted down and killed people who had no idea they were just pieces of some game.
 
 
Sid Zero
10:07 / 13.10.02
Oh man, you guys are just making re-read ALL of the series... Shit. I'm already mind-fucked enough.
 
 
Sharkgrin
11:28 / 13.10.02
King Mob: He killed people easier than you or I breathed, and for a while, could only quip with ironic detachment disguised as pop-zen.

Jolly Roger: See above, but with trailer park venom.
Bloody Hell in America was her chance to snarl and growl about vengeance and tail kicking like some Johon Wayne/Clint Eastwood movie or Old Testament prophet.

Cell 23: These guys made Sir Miles' Royal Monster and Mister Six look like church knitting groups. They figuratively threw up in Boy's head to the point of holding a gun on her own team mates.

Jim Crow:
A - He orchestrated the scariest scene in comics ever penned at the conclusion of Season of Ghouls.
B - He orchestrated the second scariest scene in comics ever penned at the conclusion of Kissing Mr. Quimper.
C - Every Friday night, me and my incomprehensible, alien neighbors play a couple of hours of Poker, using human lives as gambling stakes.
Sir Miles is an amateur compared to Jim Crow when dealing with violent, brutal Alien Intelligences.

The abberrant moral codes of the above "Good Guys" prompts me to dismiss the black and white labels all-together.

That's the beauty of the invisibles; once I stopped vomitting and weaping for the future, I saw how useless my polarizations and labels truly were.

VR
The Shark
' See a red car and I want to paint it... gray'
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
19:12 / 13.10.02
yknow, I dug the invisibles as much as any other duality-bustin' dude on the block but....

I still canny apply the 'division as an illusion philosophy' to my everyday life.

I still hate my boss.

I still get pissed off when my homies don't agree with me.

i still want to fuck loads of people even tho when i'm fucking my girlfriend I'm actually fucking everything there ever was/is/will be in the universe.

Bummer!!!!
 
 
Sharkgrin
01:21 / 14.10.02
Oh, well, Yawn.
Save me a seat next to you on the non-stop train to Hell. Please save me a window seat.
VR
The Shark.
It's not Easy bring Evil...
 
 
dlotemp
02:37 / 14.10.02
Yawn:

Your point is absolutely essential and reminds me of a nifty zen ancedote. Briefly put, Amercian student of Buddhism meets his roshi and tells him that he has come into enlightment: he now understands life and death. The Roshi promptly chockes the student to near death until the student kicks him off. The Roshi recovers and laughs - "You understand life and death? Ha ha ha ha ha." Then walks away. One of the points being that you may understand it but physically you're still tied to your biological imperatives.

Jack Denfeld -
Again, like others have stated, the Invisibles - meaning KM and crew - committed many heinous deeds. In Black Science 1 & 2, they killed hundreds of soldiers who had no inkling of their involvement in the Archon plot. These soldiers were little more than dupes. Plus, each of these deaths was a death committed against themselves. It's important to always remember that every character in the series - every character - is essentially an aspect of the supercontext. while they appear distinct, they are all connected; they are different faces on the same person. Questions of good and evil begin to blur and fade beneath that understanding.
 
 
--
03:05 / 14.10.02
I have a few more comments on Sir Miles but first I'd like to look at the Invisibles good/bad issue here:

The Invisibles are the "good guys" in the sense that they're trying to get the universe to reach it's next stage, to evolve out of it's larvel stage into the next stage, the age of Horus. What makes them "bad" is the method they use to do it: Violence, which is a tool of The Conspiracy. Gradually the Invisibles become aware of this and change their tactics, as seen in volume 3 (or when King Mob gives up guns at the end of volume 2).

Basically, the Invisibles represent change, something the enemy is opposed to. The most important insight into the Invisibles is delivered by Jack Flint towards the end of Volume 3: He says that the Invisibles are an immune program triggered by the Barvelaith buoy when the game crashed and embedded the player. See, The Invisibles are an antibody fighting a virus, and the virus is the archons, which are trying to prevent the universe from evolving. Note the computer language: program. When the Barbelaith is destroyed (a life support system dying so the child, our universe, can be born) it says "Prepare for download". The game is back on course and the player (the universe) is no longer embedded. The Invisible program succeeded.

The Archons are "bad" because they represent dominition, fear, disease, control, whereas the Invisibles are trying to spread self-knowledge, eternal freedom, etc. They're (the archons) the virus Tom O'Bedlam mentions that invaded our world a long time ago, a virus that humans got so used to they forget what it was like before. They forgot Barbelaith, basically, which Jack mentions towards the end of Volume 1. According to Tom, humans have to leave their bodies... That's what the Invisibles were fighting for and which the Archons were trying to stop. Look at when Robin talked to the Blind Chessman who says he imagines a world with the glossalia language, and that lots of people want to stop us from getting there. He's talking about the Outer Church, who fear change (Lord Fanny points this out to Quimper at the end of Black Science 2, using an apt Butterfly imagery). King Mob mentions how he can change towards the end of Volume 2...

Another thing that differeniates the two sides is their view of the future. The future of the outer church is a world of pain and fear, no hope or creativity, with humans being used as fuel for the archons (wonder where the Matrix got their ideas?) whereas the Invisibles are fighting for a future where everyone gets exactly what they want, even the bad guys. The Archons drain their servants of their energy, castrate them, make them slaves. The Invisibles is a looser organization... no one tries to stop Boy from leaving. Do you think the Outer Church would tolerate someone like Colonel Friday from leaving? I don't think so. I think the Invisibles use of violence is justified at Dulce at least... As Jack points out, a lot of people were killed, but the number of lives that will be saved from AIDS/HIV will justify it (and let's face it most of the Dulce gaurds had to have known that what they were doing wasn't right, guarding the AIDS vaccine, experimenting on people, etc.) Even Bobby the soilder KM killed had to have known that Harmony House was a bad place (and the guy was a wifebeater to boot). In "The Invisibles" there are no characters who are purely innocent. All the characters make the graves they lie in, from Bobby to Jolly Roger.

Of course, there are some comparisons between the two sides. Observe how Mr. Gelt says "We will make you conform, and in the end, you will thank us for it." Later on King Mob mentions they want to show people the exits, and Boy adds "We want them to love us for it". Interesting. Of course as Boy later notes "Everybody's a bad guy".

Anyway, back on Sir Miles:

There are interesting connections between Sir Miles and King Mob. Notice how KM compares himself to James Bond... Then at the very start of Vol.3 Division X calls Miles the original James Bond. Notice how both use violence to further their cause. Notice how both start showing remorse/guilt for their actions. Notice how both get interrogated by the opposite site (Mob with Key 17, Miles with Key 23). Notice how they both shoot a bespectacled servant of the Outer Church between the eyes (Gelt & Rossiter). Notice how both searched for the Invisibles at a young age, and how both ended up on the side that matches their upbringing: Miles, born to a rich family, joins the upperclass majority whereas Gideon, raised by a revolutionary activist mother, ends up with the Invisibles, an anarchonistic minority. H'mmm... Miles even has links to the OLD King Mob. Both say about Beryll "Through her, I met the others", others being the Invisibles. That says a lot about Miles originally being an Invisible.

Anyway, regarding the Miles as Invisibles theory, here's how I read it: Miles searched for The Invisibles. He met Beryll and they were members of the OTO. Through Beryll he was initiated into the Invisibles. He soon met the mysterious Seaton, who said that initiation never ends. The Blind Chessman says the EXACT same words to Dane. I think that Seaton is in fact a version of the Blind Chessman. I think this Seaton was in charge of the anti-masons set up by the Invisibles to steer Miles towards the Outer Church (The Hareliquinade knew that, to bring about the age of Horus, Miles would be needed to join the establishment so he could bring down Rex Mundi to the Moonchild in 1999, letting Jack bind it. At THIS point, Miles became a pawn). Ok, so Seaton tells Miles about the childgod Horus and intoduces Miles to the Elder Gods. Miles sees the Outer Church but he can't see past to the Invisible college. As he tells John A'Dreams towards the end of Volume 3, he saw the Outer Church once and he saw that he had a choice. At this point in time Miles joined the Establishment for real. Still, being an existentalist he still held on to his humanity, his free-will, to some extent, unlike someone like Colonel Friday or Miss Dwyer. Among the outer church agents he was an outsider (who read "The Outsider"). And his paying back the Invisibles for the time Dane saved him shows us he still has some sense of honor. I guess I can sum up my theory by saying that Miles was steered into joining the Outer Church on purpose by the Invisibles so that he could help bring about the age of Horus. At least that's how I read it.

The blurring of the two sides can be further seen when Miles kills the Moonchild and Rossiter (servants of the Outer Church) then Jolly Roger (member of the Invisibles).

Shit, I have a headache now trying to sort all this out.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
07:42 / 14.10.02
yknow when peeps show there respect for Some ragga-hip-hoppity rap guy they make a kind of animal grunting noise sorta like

oo-ooo-ooo-ooo-ooo!

?

well thats what I'm doing now for Sypha Nadon.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:04 / 14.10.02
Oh yeah, dlotemp and sypha are workin' it.

But the key here, as yawn and I point out above is PERSPECTIVE. From below Miles and the Archons are all evil and CONTROL; from above, however......
 
 
gravity's rainbow
08:15 / 14.10.02
hopefully I'm not outta line wondering if anyone's looked at the link of all these ideas of violence, death, no good/bad to Sept 11?
One could easily look at the invisibles and their tactics and then look at the al qaeda terrorists and their tactics - has GM inadvertantly given us a look into the flip side of these events?
(I say inadvertantly, but of course the Invisibles preempts all of history from now and and backwards, right?)
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
08:47 / 14.10.02
When Grant's come down from the Filth (maybe he already has, depends if he's finished writing it and integrating it, spose), it'll be interesting to see if he's changed HIS perspective on the Outer Church.

After all, The Filth explores the OC perspective in a sympathetic light: maybe there is no Invisible College beyond the Porn mountains.

Maybe all there is, in the end, is an overwhelming desire for organisation and control:

cos that's what the little things which constitute 'us' are interested in.

yknow what: I couldae handle the filth in a one volume trade pape.

I'd spew ma load I reckon.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:42 / 14.10.02
If you read 'Best Man Fall' (or wait for the film adaptation ) then I think that clearly shows things from the other perspective, generally decent bloke, trying to do the right thing, get's shot by King Mob for his trouble.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
12:23 / 14.10.02
YOU MAY HAVE MISHEARD.
 
 
--
12:51 / 14.10.02
well, I think the Outer Church was interested in more then a little control. They seemed to want total control. In fact they wanted to create an eternal holocaust, according to their members. I have trouble trying to find the positive in that. Maybe because I value peace and individuality. Ah well.

Regarding "Best Man Fall" (which I feel is one of the Invisibles most overrated issues, but that's just an opinion) Bobby may be generally decent but hey, he was no angel. He beat his wife and he worked for a place that brainwashed and castrated boys. He even had qualms about working there but he took the job anyway. Remember that conversation in clerks about innocent Death Star workers killed when the Death Star blew up? No one is innocent.
 
 
--
12:53 / 14.10.02
Further Best Man Fall isn't even from the other side's perspective... Bobby isn't really privy to the Archons or the Outer Church, in fact he's more neutral then anything else. Had he been an agent who had been converted or someone like Miles or Rossiter, then it would have been a morte accurate representation of the other side.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:46 / 14.10.02
Aaah, but regardless Sypha, to expose the humanity beneath the Archon was Best Man Falls raison d'etre.

The Invisible ethos, taken to its extreme, represents absolute dissolution/dispersion - equally extreme, methinks.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:01 / 14.10.02
Best man fall:

That bit when boabby’s big braar wacks boabies knee’s affy th’ ruffcast wa’.

Ooyah baistert!
 
 
bjacques
15:04 / 14.10.02
It *was* early in Dane's development. At least it was important that he learn quickly that there are consequences. Trite, maybe, but it's still haunting Dane in his shamanic fever in II-21. If you start thinking omelets and eggs, it becomes too easy to justify indiscriminate killing. King Mob has lost count of the number of people he's killed, and was lucky to get off so lightly, karmically speaking. Jolly Roger did not. On the simplest level, I think this awareness is what enabled Dane to become the Buddha and then walk away from it and to ease Gaz through his last moments in 2012, though Gaz had tried to sell him to the cops.
 
 
Axel Lambert
15:23 / 14.10.02
Seaton = Tom.
 
 
The Falcon
16:51 / 14.10.02
I live in Scotland. I've met people who could well be like/become like Bobby - his class background goes a long way to creating this semi-drone/Myrmidon/agent of 'them' persona that he ends up with.

Morrison had similar characters (i.e. those who have to make a living - we can't all be artists) in his 2 issue Hellblazer story (#25-26.) I don't really remember Thatcher's Britain, but I'm well aware the vast majority of N. Britain had a shit time of it - "Oh, so because we hate you, we can get the poll tax a year early. Thanks."

However, 'remember, it's just a game' or as my fave pop producers would have it: "No-one Ever Really Dies (N.E.R.D.)" And Audrey Murray saves KM's life - what's that about then? Karmic inversion?
 
 
The Falcon
16:53 / 14.10.02
And, bjacques, sorry to spoil it, but it's Billy not Gaz - who is at this point a veg - who tries to sell Dane out.

Sypha, I've got a hat. It's off. Hat's off.
 
 
dlotemp
23:23 / 14.10.02
Sypha -

The Outer Church is after ultimate control and envisions an ever-occuring apocalypse because they are the final, perhaps ultimate, gestation of the Modern perspective. At least I believe that Morrision intends that as one perspective on the matter. If we look at Arcadia, the five (?) leaders - the judge, banker, etc. - are analogous to the Archons. These are men who have tasted the honey of control and want it all. They wanted the ends of the universe quantified and calculated so that they can commit whatever their desires wish. They and the Archons represent that Modern view that the world can be tamed and totally understood objectively. Ethics, mores, and soul are nothing but epherma.

I find the philosopher Ken Wilber's concepts very useful for understanding Morrison's perspective. Not surprisingly, I believe Morrison has read and ingested Wilber's stuff. Anyway, Wilber picks up on the idea that the universe is forever growing in depth - "initiation never ends" - and that we encounter cognitive, emotional, spritiual, and physical strife when we reach the ends of our conceptual scaffolding. To overcome those constraints, we must absorb the old paradigms and evolve beyond them. This frees us from the old universe and births us into a new one, which eventually reaches its own end and revival.

My point being that the Archons have the final end of the Modern world view. They react to this end with fear and dreams of holocaust. But the Invisibles are able to overcome - over-evolve - by absorbing - using their member Sir Miles to infiltrate, using old terrorist techniques - and then thinking outside the old box, pardon the cliche, - adopting new methods in v.3, KM abandoning murder, etc.

To all who mentioned the al-queda perspective -
I wholeheartedly agree. The Invisibles would be considered terrorists in our world. so would V from V for Vendetta. They murder and steal for their own ideological ends. But on the other hand, both V and the Invisibles seek to free our minds from the old conceptual and social chains. I tend to think Osama and crew have missed that point.
 
 
Sharkgrin
01:03 / 15.10.02
For the life of me, I have yet to see anyone explain to me how the Cell 23 guys are any better than than the Archons, in terms of good guys/bad guys.

They and Jim Crow easily overshadow the horror factor of the bad guys, except for maybe the King Archons.

Please bear with me; I remember reading the Kindom Come TPB, and Orion held Darkseid's mantle; his noblest works, his brightest hopes, and his purest intentions could only translate into an iron grip and forced discipline. His altruistic efforts didn't look all that different from Darkseid's.

I believe freedom is paralyzing for many people, a million confusion choices and a lot of indecision.
I believe msome a purpose and path in life given to them by a confident leader, but I believe the majority want a warm bed and food to eat.
I could see a leader struggling to keep the ship afloat and while trying to educate and enlighten the willfully ignorant masses, outside forces and rebellious elements threaten to burn everything down.

I see a person, 1 mile tall, striding along spraying and swatting the annoying millions of germs and micro-vermin which assault its skin and hair. I see a person, 1 mile tall, striding along, crushing the anthills and wasp nests which dot the realty its trying to develop.
I see a person, 1 mile tall, striding along, dropping pesticide on the mounds of fireants and termites which infest the plot its trying to develop.

I see the Archons trying to rid themselves of the 6 billion infestation of their new vacation home and taking the appropriate measures.

But, hell, it's a funny book dealing in dualistic smoke and mirrors, so what the heck do I know.

VR
The Shark
Licensed Outer Church Dealer
 
 
--
02:36 / 15.10.02
Seaton is Tom? How do you know (oh yeah, that's right, everything is open to speculation). That's what I love about this comic. Funny, when I first started reading I thought it was good vs. evil. I got more then I bargained for...

All I'm saying is, looking at the potential futures desired by the two sides, I prefer the Invisibles vision. I'm just not satisfied with the way they go about doing it (at least initially). But I still think the Invisibles are better then your average terrorist organization as dlotemp stated. I mean, any group trying to end AIDs gets a hats off from me.

And as for Jim Crow being scary at the end of "Season of Ghouls"... come on the guy he killed was a rich racist who was turning black people into zombies so he could rape and kill without being caught. I'd say he got what he deserved. I mean, let's put this in perspective here...

I was far more scared of Colonel Friday's declarations of what the world would become towards the end of the first Black Science. 1984 deja-vu.
 
 
dlotemp
03:09 / 15.10.02
Sharkgrin:

You threw me with your colorful analogy. Were you trying to draw an analogy between the Archons and a home owner getting rid of lawn pests? I ask not in sarcasm but to honestly try to understand your point. You lost me somewhere.

The social and emotional connection that you perceived between Orion in Kingdom Come and the Archons/Sir Miles is right on. This is usually what happens in most revolts - the new boss is the same as the old boss. That is because Orion and the Archons are products of an evolutionary age that has reached its conceptual limit. They can't dream bigger. so, yes, I agree with you.

>>I believe freedom is paralyzing for many people, a million confusion choices and a lot of indecision.
I believe msome a purpose and path in life given to them by a confident leader, but I believe the majority want a warm bed and food to eat.
I could see a leader struggling to keep the ship afloat and while trying to educate and enlighten the willfully ignorant masses, outside forces and rebellious elements threaten to burn everything down.<<

You lost me on this part. Are you saying that Miles/Archons can be seen as leaders trying to keep the ship afloat and that the Invisibles are the rebellious elements? I'd agree to that assessment. The Archons do want to perpetuate their world. They want to educate and enlighten, but on their terms. I disagree that the masses are willfully ignorant. No one is willfully ignorant. Yes, yes, we all turn off our minds when we obsess about Kylie, Jlo, Brad Pitt, what have you, but everyone learns and adapts as necessary to their environment. I guess I take exception to the adverb "willfully." And yes, I've met people who are close minded but not to everything. Please don't interprete this as an arguement because I bet we agree with each other.

Sypha - To right about the Invisibles. they ask you to think for yourself - Level 3 on the Mimetic Scale.

RE: Cell 23 - Yeah, they are one of the scariest crews in the Invisibles. Nothing seems sacred to them. On that level, they seem to share the Archons lack of mores. Whose side are they on?

Of course, as good Barebelithers, we all know that there are no sides, except for the one with butter on it.
; )
 
 
--
05:03 / 15.10.02
Oh my god, I'm a moron. How did I miss that? Tom O'Bedlam's last name in reality is Seaton. That's who Miles was talking about! I must have forgetten Tom's last name and assumed Seaton was some cryptic mysterious figure. Still, I think that the masked man who tells Miles that initiation never ends is still the Blind Chessman. Anyway, Tom had seen the Outer Church, so he'd be the perfect person to introduce Miles to it. And it does seem fitting that Tom would train both Miles and Dane, two of the most important pawns on the board, so to speak.

I'm still not sure how I feel about Cell 23. They are a little creepy... but they did help Boy meet Barbelith and, if their psychics are to be believed, they did save King Mob's cell...
 
  

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