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Help! Film Noir and Blade Runner!

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08:45 / 03.10.02

So yeh... my film studies coursework involves saying how Blade Runner follows and diverges from the established Film Noir traits, currently with refernce to Out Of The Past, Kiss Me Deadly and The Big Combo. Unfortunatly, I know jack about Film Noir.

Help! Someone! Info about the staples of the genre and so forth! I'm so new to all this stuff!

09:12 / 03.10.02

Just did a little search and found the pocket esentials has a book on film noir, might be a good starting point or you could just rip off everything in it -

http://www.pocketessentials.com/film/filmnoir/index.php

Noir!

We're The Great Old Ones Now

09:51 / 03.10.02

Uh...Jeez, Pin, there are books about this stuff, and you want a potted answer?

Um. Okay, paraphrased from 'Film Noir' by Foster Hirsch:

Characters live regular, self-contained lives until an event or chance encounter releases the suppressed emotion and passion within, forcing a trasformation. There is a sense of inevitability and doom - these people are victims of fate. The mechanism of their lives has raised them to a pinacle of suppressed potential energy, which is released in an unstoppable dive to the conclusion.

There are frequently sexual tensions in the characters - a sense of withholding and self-denial, adding to their explosive change when the lid comes off their lives. Sometimes this is the trigger.

The World is harsh, survival is a struggle, the odds are stacked against you and you won't get a lucky break without paying for it somehow. Noir also records a deep fear of the New Woman, forced by circumstance into roles the society had not previously allowed her, driven, sexually potent and aware, demanding, aggressive, and scheming.

Noir derives from the pulp crime novels of the twenties and thirties, the Gangster phenomenon, visually from German Expressionism, and incorporates inlfuences from Europe. It's a product of a society in transition in many ways, and scared of itself.

Don't ignore French Film Noir, either - it has much to say about the US variety. 'Salaire de la peur' (the Wages of Fear) is one of the most affecting and terrifying films yet made - not for its premise, but for the confrontation with the dark and destructive side of masculine heroism.

[breathes out]

Off you go.

09:52 / 03.10.02

Well, the one reason I like the original cut is for the voiceover - yes, Ford's fucked off he's had to do it, but it's very Noir. Also: look at the use of lighting, flawed hero possibly led astray by femme fatale, detective/antihero having more in common with villian than he might like.

And seriously, watch some forties noir. It's really great. Also try and see the seventies take on Chandler's The Long Goodbye, with Elliot Gould. It's transposed to 70s LA, but works really well. IMVHO. More later, when I'm not dashing to pick someone up.

The Natural Way

09:55 / 03.10.02

Oh my God! The course hasn't changed much has it.

A few conventions: protagonist as narrator, the femme fatale (whole bunch of conventions/narratives bound up w/ her), influence of german expressionism on set design and lighting (esp in the sense that the mise-en-scene reflects protagonists internal state), post 2nd WW dystopian landscapes....

Bloody hell, I wish I could remember more. Look some of this shit up.

More as it comes to me............

Tryphena Absent

10:18 / 03.10.02

Decker's job is typically Noir, his hat damnit, that hat is just perfect! The lighting is, yes, just there. This actually seems to be the only way you can look at Blade Runner and appreciate it (if you read Philip K. Dick's book first).

10:37 / 03.10.02

Check out Blade Runner: Film Noir or Science Fiction? It seems like it could be a bit helpful.

13:20 / 03.10.02

Don't forget to mention the extractor fans...

16:12 / 03.10.02

seriously dude, get off the internet and watch some film noirs. it's about the best possible homework you could imagine. definately check The Big Sleep, Double Indemnity, Detour, Laura, Gun Crazy... noir is the best... go ahead and obsess

16:16 / 03.10.02

Don't forget Polanski's "Chinatown". One of the best American films ever made.

The resistable rise of Reidcourchie

14:56 / 05.10.02

I concur with the crack the books and find the films sentiment.

Sunset Boulevard is another good one.

Noir as mentioned above owed a lot to the German Expressionist film makers in pre-war Germany. Many of them had to do a bunk as the nazi's became more powerful and they ended up in Hollywood.

Expressionist wise check out the Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, Nosferatu and I'm sure a few other people here can help with titles. I have studied this but it was a long time ago.

Now what was the film with the briefcase full of radiation? Was that a Mike hammer story?

19:46 / 05.10.02

Kiss Me Deadly, and yeah it's a Mike Hammer story. Kinda weird film... had a sort of brightness to it that seperates it in tone and look from "noir"... and there's all this strange hi-tech business... Hammer's practically a superhero... the briefcase thing is one of the great McGuffins of cinema... often cited as possible inspiration for tarrentino's glowing briefcase in Pulp Fiction.

20:14 / 05.10.02

More input, stolen from David Meyer's "A Girl and a Gun - The Complete Guide to Film Noir on Video".
Rules of Noir:

. No good deed goes unpunished
. A detached ironic view is the only refuge
. Crime does not pay , but normal life is an experiential/existential straitjacket
. Charecter determines fate
. Though love might seem to be the only redeeming aspect of human existance, it is not
. Kicks count for something
. Alienation rules

Use the above as guidelines, watching Blade Runner again.
It might help.

As soemone else already said, it's a subject about which they write books.
And good books, too.
The above-mentioned Meyer book is the classic short & sweet intro to noir for neophites - what's more, every single one he mentions (including Blade Runner) is available on video for purchase (recommended) or rental (if you're cheap).
Big sick noir fans like myself tend to prefer Alain Silver & Co.'s "Film Noir - An Encyclopedic reference to the American genre".
Silver and his accomplices ave also produced a pair of "Film Noir Readers" that collect the essential articles on the subject. The first one should cover all the bases for a standard filmology course.
Another good one is "Dark City", by a guy caled Muller who also did a book on pornography.
"Somewhere in the Night - Film Noir and the American City", by N. Christopher, is unusual but quite interesting - a big heady mix of noir style, sociology and history.

Hope this helps.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

12:59 / 07.10.02

And in 'Somewhere in the Night', my favourite (?) book on film is quoted - 'The Immediate Experience' by Robert Warshow. Although it's weird and messed up because Warshow was writing under the McCarthyite gun, as it were, it's a compelling and interesting book. If you find it, you'll be a lucky reader.

The resistable rise of Reidcourchie

16:27 / 07.10.02

Didn't quite a few of the film noir guys fall quite badly afoul of Mcarthyism?

20:10 / 08.11.04

Here's a plot question about Blade Runner and not about noir --

what's different in the original version (isn't it kind of weird that the director's cut is the only version available now - on DVD, at least, the wave of the future) as opposed to the director's cut?

And I've heard rumblings about how Deckard himself is a Replicant, but I just watched the director's cut and aside from some hints peppered throughout the script ("Have you ever taken that test yourself, Mr. Deckard?" says sexy Replicant Sean Young), there's no such revelation. Was this made more clear in the original/old release version? Or was this something film enthusiasts know Ridley Scott wanted to include but didn't get a chance to?

Thanks Barbelith!

miss wonderstarr

22:51 / 08.11.04

Really you should read some books on this, not seek potted online answers. Have you got Retrofitting Blade Runner, ed. Judith Kerman? It's a very solid, stimulating anthology of essays from the early 1990s. Scott Bukatman's Blade Runner monograph from the BFI is also very good.

Having said don't go for shorthand answers, key points to look at would be, I think:

-- questions of human identity/urban alienation, obvious issues around the nature and definition of humanity, echoing (as I understand it) noir dime-book psychoanalysis
-- Deckard as typical noir lone hero, on the margins of the law, following detective plot; bitter, cynical, arguably misogynistic.
-- Los Angeles setting, and specific aspects such as Tyrell's elevated HQ as 2019 equivalent of the rich house on Hollywood Hills in Chandler et al.
-- Rachael as possible femme fatale. This isn't that simple as she's not your usual predatory schemer. Lots of debate here.
-- deliberate emulation of noir mise-en-scene such as light thru slatted blinds, slow-turning fans, drifting smoke, contrasting shadow and illumination.
-- in original cut only, the voiceover, which is certainly in the style of noir like Double Indemnity, though a lot more wooden and uninspired.

Whoever said "Decker's hat" is typically noir needs to get a clue.

miss wonderstarr

22:54 / 08.11.04

The director's cut is far heavier on the hints that Deckard is a replicant than is the original cut. The crucial change is the "unicorn dream", which supposedly in conjunction with Gaff's origami at the end reveals that Gaff is aware of Deckard's unconscious implants.

Re. German Expressionism, obvious examples include Metropolis, M, Der Golem, Faust, Dr Mabuse Der Spieler, Schatten [=Warning Shadows].

Honestly this is a bit of a weird thread because you could find all this information in a five-second Google search instead of asking other people... but more to the point, if you're doing film studies I really think you should go to a library and read an entire book instead of just trying to pick up some snatched trivia from people on a bulletin board (including me... I would hate anyone to quote anything I write here or use it as anything but a springboard to proper book-larning.)

23:49 / 08.11.04

It's also an old thread, dude - the film studies stuff is from a couple of years back.

miss wonderstarr

07:12 / 09.11.04

That doesn't make discussing the relationship of Blade Runner to noir "out of date", surely?

Jack The Bodiless

11:16 / 09.11.04

No, it just means that it's a little late scratching your head over why _pin started the thread and why he doesn't just go and watch some movies/read some books, as the reason for him doing so (his film coursework) was finished, handed in and given an 'F' ages and ages ago.

14:55 / 09.11.04

I'm not doing film studies, just wanted to ask a question about Blade Runner and this was the only Blade Runner thread.

Deckard doesn't wear a hat at all in this movie, IIRC.

And thanks for the answers about the hints...glad to know I didn't miss something in my viewing. So the 'original' version has far less hints, cool.

15:05 / 09.11.04

I don't know why I'm defending myself, but this thread was started when I was 16/17, attending a school running a Film Studies A Level for the first time, and contained precisely squat books. The Isle of Wight's library service was similarly helpful.

It was also started with the intention of being a sounding board for ideas. Books aren't a sounding board, and would not have helped me much in that respect. In the end, it wasn't needed for that because I learnt enough to get on and ask people intimidating through their vast and superior knowledge for the help I needed.

And I didn't get an F.

miss wonderstarr

15:58 / 09.11.04

Well, no matter that the original coursework is done and dusted, this is still a thread for talking about the film and its influences, and I hope my post above wasn't entirely redundant. I take the point that my advice about going to books not boards was

a) out of date
b) perhaps not entirely appropriate given your location

but it holds true in general I think, and I don't think my contribution to the thread was useless. MY BAD for not looking at the date at the top though. Perhaps we can go on discussing the film anyway.

18:48 / 09.11.04

Yes, let's discuss the film.

I took great delight in my recent watching of Blade Runner to note that huge neon signs for ATARI filled the background of the city. Back in the 80s, when we all thought Atari video games and their wonderful logo would conquer the world... *nostalgiac sniff sniff*

miss wonderstarr

20:27 / 09.11.04

Yeah there is some talk of a "Blade Runner curse"; other companies featured in the fictional 2019 have also gone bust. I think one of them might be Bell telephones. Sure it would be easy to google the rest. There's a massive TDK neon behind the final face-off: not sure if that brand's still going.

Tryphena Absent

21:58 / 09.04.06

I am bumping this thread because of the discussion currently taking place in Films that you used to think were good when you were young and stupid but which, with the benefit of hindsight, really suck.

It might be an idea to change the title and summary to broaden the topic?

Anyway Steve Weaving (aka Smoothly) made an ironic comment that ended with people split pretty much down the middle on Bladerunner. Some people dislike the aesthetics, the plot, others love the elements that other people hate.

I'm a Bladerunner hater for the same reasons as Daytripper. I feel that the film strips the humanity and humour from the original work. Decker's responses for me are clarified throughpout Dick's novel by his love for living creatures. I miss his wife and her mood device and the emphasis on the sinister in the film strips my enjoyment away.

On the film rather than the film as adaptation it is certainly atmospheric but I often feel that it relies on atmosphere to carry it through. Every character responds in the same way, I ache for someone to do something that actually would destroy the entire film because it would contrast in a startling manner.

23:07 / 09.04.06

Well, the book and the film are two very different animals and should be treated as such.

I like both, for a lot of different reasons. Bladerunner surely isn't perfect, even its most ardent fans are likely to be split on which cuts of the film they prefer and chose to give the film wildly different readings, a variety of which are supported by the text of the film and along with the production design and 10001 other things it is this polyvalency that brings me back to Bladerunner again and again. Sometimes when I watch it Deckard is a flawed patetic human who can only take down a true nexus six if it is semi- naked, female, unarmed and running away from him. Sometimes I read him as a flawed android who is simply convinced that he is human to the extent that he is happy to gun down his fellows and replicate all the flaws of humanity to boot. Still other times I relegate Decard to the role of villain and focus on Roy Batty and chums in their doomed quest for survival...

01:47 / 10.04.06

I enjoyed the book, but the film is a vastly superior work, primarily because of the medium change. While I love the themes and narrative of the film, what makes it so special for me is the way the design and music work together to create a feeling. When Deckard's standing out on his balcony, with that saxophone heavy Vangelis track playing, you're not observing someone in a depressed state, you're feeling exactly what he's feeling. So, the music isn't used to tell you what to feel, as in most of classical Hollywood cinema, it's used to immerse you in what the characters are experiencing.

There's so many transcendent moments in the film, Gaff and Deckard writing towards the pyramid, Rachel and Deckard playing the piano together, Roy's death in the rain. In these moments, the film immerses you completely in an emotion and that's the greatest possibility of cinema, something that a book could never do.

And the final moments of the film, when the elevator door closes and the pounding credits music hits is one of the most exhilirating endings of any film.

This is a work where the source material is altered so much, it becomes basically irrelevant. There's a book called Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, and it has some similarities with the film Blade Runner, but each of them are seperate works. There's some stuff from the book that I miss, like the replicant police station, but I wouldn't want it added to the film because it's near perfect as is.

miss wonderstarr

08:51 / 10.04.06

Much of what I would want to say in defence of the film is in the thread Nina linked to above. But I wonder why people so often mistakenly write the title as one word.

09:56 / 10.04.06

Same reason they call the main character Decker rather than Deckard, I imagine. Or the reason so many people call Watchmen, The Watchmen.

Tryphena Absent

11:44 / 10.04.06

It's called having a bad memory. It's a common complaint that everyone suffers from (Cho Chang or Cho Chan?).

miss wonderstarr

14:32 / 10.04.06

Well... not to nitpick, but I think the title of the film is more significant than a minor character within it.

Misrembering Cho Chang is like not being sure if it's Pris or Priss.

Misrembering the title "Blade Runner" is like not being sure if the book's called Harry Trotter.

However! we all know what we're talking about of course. I'm afraid it's just a pedantic thing on my part.

14:48 / 10.04.06

>>>Misrembering the title "Blade Runner" is like not being sure if the book's called Harry Trotter.<<<

Well no it isn't, because when spoken aloud, "Blade Runner" and "Bladerunner" sound exactly the same.

miss wonderstarr

16:06 / 10.04.06

LoL. Oh yeah.

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