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Safe Space

 
  

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We're The Great Old Ones Now
09:57 / 03.10.02
I think we're going to need a little more to go on, Disco. Can you give us some detail of your construction of the world as a safe space for white wealthy straight (did I miss anyone?) men? The more I explore it, the less it seems to mean what I would have thought it meant.
 
 
some guy
11:09 / 03.10.02
"who isn't protected by the state?"
Obviously you are, but have a look around.


Time to define terms again (something we missed the first time around).

I can only speak for the US, but here everyone has legal protection. Whether this translates into social protection is an entirely different matter. So safe space, at least in the US, is not a reaction to lack of state protection.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
02:33 / 07.10.02
Nick, you have ceased to say anything interesting and are now merely attempting to bait me. Fuhgeddit.

Lawrence: I don't even think I can be bothered to explain. Please check your facts: "does everyone have legal protection?" I don't think so. Perhaps your government would like you to think everyone has legal protection but legal protection, as I understand it, only extends to those people who first of all have a passport or some kind of American citizenship (which doesn't include a large popultion of undocumented migrants/laborers -- look up the phrase 'Tortilla Curtain' sometime).

Secondly legal protection must be bought. Surely you are not stupid enough to claim there's no difference in 'protection' between someone who maybe doesn't have a home, a source of income or a lawyer, and someone who can afford to purchase adequate legal representation in the shockingly under-funded US court system. And that's only the US of fucking A.

Attacking right-wing bullshit is only interesting for a little while before it becomes mindlessly boring. I am at that point. Goodbye.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:18 / 07.10.02
Disco: No, I'm not. That was a genuine question. If you don't want to answer it or you'd rather not continue the discussion, fine. But I was interested, and I still am. I don't understand your last post clearly enough to agree or disagree. It's brief to the point of curt. I'm not baiting you and I'm don't argue like Haus, who recently observed that he doesn't tend to offer constructions, only constructive criticisms. I can only discuss these things in terms of synthesis - making a picture.

Up to you.
 
 
some guy
11:41 / 07.10.02
Please check your facts: "does everyone have legal protection?" I don't think so.

As I've said repeatedly, we need to define terms. Legal protection re: physical safety (and this is a thread, after all, on safe space) does extend to everyone in the US. Everyone is legally protected against assault, murder etc.

So the question evolves into two strands - are all people socially protected (ie: does the culture insist on implementation of those legal protections), and what other things do people need protection from aside from physical violence? I would say that no, social protection does not yet match up to legal protection, and suggest that "safe spaces" are primarily used to maintain a homogenous political milieu rather than a physical sanctuary from assault (and indeed arguably provide a better target for physical assault, what with the gap between social and legal protections).

Secondly legal protection must be bought. Surely you are not stupid enough to claim there's no difference in 'protection' between someone who maybe doesn't have a home, a source of income or a lawyer, and someone who can afford to purchase adequate legal representation in the shockingly under-funded US court system.

Look, if you can't be bothered to read what people are writing, don't participate in the thread. Everyone in the US has legal protection. Whether these laws are enforced is another matter entirely. This social protection is not uniform, obviously. The discrepancy in "protection" (whatever that means - I suspect some of us should instead be using "privilege" here) between rich and poor and so on are social creations. In terms of actual law, it's not any more legal to assault the homeless than smack Bill Gates.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:23 / 07.10.02
Well, but...is there not a fallacy involved in saying "Everyone in the US has legal protection, but the law does not protect everyone in the US"? Or indeed in the idea that one can separate "the law" and "the society". All sounds a bit langue et paroley to me...
 
 
some guy
13:49 / 07.10.02
Well, but...is there not a fallacy involved in saying "Everyone in the US has legal protection, but the law does not protect everyone in the US"

No, because those are two different issues (by "law" I'm assuming you mean "cops").
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:13 / 07.10.02
The law is what happens, as well as what's written down. If the law says everyone's equal, but society functions in another way, what's the reality?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:22 / 07.10.02
Then for heaven's sake, Laurence, define your terms. Remember: Head Shop. Discussion. Not gainsaying. A chimpanzee can disagree.

You define social protection as "the culture insisting on implementation of those legal protections (against physical violence)", and legal protection as the overarching legal prohibitions against physical violence that protect everyone. Except they do not protect everyone, because the US (to take our test case) has not accepted the social imperative to apply those laws universally.

Therefore, which is rather what Disco said, in order to obtain actual redress before the law for having suffered physical violence (and why on Earth are we limiting ourselves to physical violence, by the way? Me no understand..) resources are required. The homeless person is very easy to attack and it is very hard for hir to obtain legal satisfaction due to social factors. The illegal immigrant, if attacked physically or otherwise within the borders of the US, cannot claim the legal protection to which ze is "entitled", because if he does so he will be deported. Therefore, functionally, ze is outside the protections of the law, regardless of hir geographical position.

To which one could reply that that person is already outside the law, and as such not entitled to the same legal protections. Which would be fair enough, but would knock a fairly sizable hole in the universal legal protection previously claimed as the property of every human being (and many domestic pets) within the geographical purview of the US.

Now, Disco, because he is a radical, might suggest that this is part of a policy to eliminate the financially non-viable, by acculturating a retreat of the protection of the law due to "social circumstances", and shrinking the entitlement of Americans to "safe space". This may be where Nick's "gated communities" come in - they are not inclusive but exclusive, that is to say they do not restrict the movement of their occupants, who have cars and alarm buttons and so on, but rather restrict the ingress of those who do not occupy them. Laurence would probably struggle to process this as a concept, and write it off as an insane conspiracy theory making a genocidal plot out of a simple social problem. In a sense, this is not an argument about safe spaces, but an argument about Capitalism, and as such if we could skip the snarking that will follow that procedure, we will no doubt all be a lot happier.

So, safe spaces. On brief examination there are three interesting possible positions:

1) Safe space is actually *negative* space - that is, small pockets in which the right of dominant groups to consider the world their safe space is suspended.

2) Safe space is a series of bubbles, where members of a group can gather for comfort and protection against other, hostile, groups.

3) Safe space is a place where people congregate in order to avoid criticism of their ideologies (although for my money the most savage critics of an ideology are those who agree with it in principle), that disengages from and as such has no impact upon the "unsafe" outside world.

Another question might be whether safe space can be absolute or relative. Babrelith, for example, is a relatively safe space, although perhaps not in a technical interpretation of the word. You may well find people disagreeing with you, but you are unlikely to be on the receiving end of racial, sexist or homophobic abuse, for example, and if you are others will generally close ranks around you. But it clearly isn't an absolutely Safe Space, if by that we mean a place where ideological dissent is not brooked. The only such space I can think of offhand is the suburbs...
 
 
Persephone
14:29 / 07.10.02
Following 3), I was also thinking 4) Safe space is a place where people congregate in order to safely savagely criticize their ideologies. But still, to your point, this probably also "disengages from and as such has no impact upon the 'unsafe' outside world."
 
 
some guy
15:33 / 07.10.02
The law is what happens, as well as what's written down. If the law says everyone's equal, but society functions in another way, what's the reality?

The reality is that society doesn't follow the law. If we were discussing Prohibition this would be so much more obvious.

Then for heaven's sake, Laurence, define your terms.

Haus, you look like a bozo when you say things like this, because I've already defined terms upthread. And indeed you proceed to reference those definitions below:

You define social protection as "the culture insisting on implementation of those legal protections (against physical violence)", and legal protection as the overarching legal prohibitions against physical violence that protect everyone. Except they do not protect everyone, because the US (to take our test case) has not accepted the social imperative to apply those laws universally.

Name one person you may legally physically assault in the US. The social imperative and the legal codification are two completely separate things. Everyone in the US is granted the same legal protection from physical violence. There is obviously a great disparity in treatment despite this.

Therefore, which is rather what Disco said, in order to obtain actual redress before the law for having suffered physical violence (and why on Earth are we limiting ourselves to physical violence, by the way? Me no understand..) resources are required.

Space space is not about obtaining redress from the law, is it? This is a separate issue. I'm sure we would all agree that those with the most cash tend to be the most successful at navigating the judicial system, odd Philip Morris cases aside (and I'm beginning to think that there may be some confusion re: "legal protection" and "judicial system" on behalf of some posters. When I say legal protection, I mean the actual law, not the judicial process to exact "satisfaction" when others violate it).

The illegal immigrant, if attacked physically or otherwise within the borders of the US, cannot claim the legal protection to which ze is "entitled", because if he does so he will be deported. Therefore, functionally, ze is outside the protections of the law, regardless of hir geographical position.

It is illegal to assault an illegal immigrant in the US (and as an aside, Haus, your continued use of "hir" and "ze" puts your pedantic critiques of other posters' language on shaky ground). That is the legal protection. The reaction to that immigrant reporting the violence is a level of social protection. These are two separate issues (and no, the immigrant will not necessarily be deported, because police inquiries generally do not include researching INS documentation of the victim, post-9/11 hysteria aside).

Laurence would probably struggle to process this as a concept

Personal insults now? And they say you're not a troll...

Safe space is actually *negative* space - that is, small pockets in which the right of dominant groups to consider the world their safe space is suspended.

Safe from what? This is still undefined. I think we're actually discussing privilege again.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:56 / 07.10.02
Not a personal insult, little one. Merely an observation, because such an idea is totally contrary to your construction of "law". I should probably have realised that you would struggle to understand even that, and for that misjudgement I apologise. Likewise, the definitions you have offered thus far are incomplete, incoherent and self-serving. As such, further definition seems a perfectly reasonable request. The insistence that the law is totally separate from the processes that coordinate its enforcement, and the people who enforce it, is so Kantian as to be almost endearing, but as it stands...well, does not stand. Thus, definition.

Now, we can indulge the natural combativeness of the posters in this thread, in which case I will move to have it relocated in the Conversation where we can all flame to our hearts content, or we can move on. Your choice.

So, what is the safe space a safe space from? Anyone? Bueller? Answers beginning "people like (insert name of poster here)" will receive spankings.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:14 / 07.10.02
Laurence. As possibly your biggest supporter here on Barbelith, even I think that you are being a little inflexible on this one.

As far as I can see, you would say that someone is 'protected under the law' from a particular act as long as there is a law prohibiting said act. But what does this protection involve? Presumably it includes police protection, if the act is observed by the police. Then again, as you deliberately separate the working from the ideal of the law, it cannot mean that. Perhaps putative police protection would be more accurate.

Thus, in your terminology, I am protected by the law from mugging if there is a law against mugging. So let us suppose I am mugged and that I then find the person who did it and locate my money. You seem to be saying that even if the system prevents me from regaining my money or bringing charges to bear then I am still 'protected'. You are undeterred from holding this view despite the fact that this sort of protection wouldn't in any way protect me.

What you are doing is using a very narrow definition of the term 'protection under law' that allows you to make statements which are shockingly misleading. I think you know that, but are letting your irritation with other posters make you unreasonable.
 
 
some guy
16:52 / 07.10.02
Thus, in your terminology, I am protected by the law from mugging if there is a law against mugging. So let us suppose I am mugged and that I then find the person who did it and locate my money. You seem to be saying that even if the system prevents me from regaining my money or bringing charges to bear then I am still 'protected'.

No, I am not saying this. What I am saying is that there are two kinds of protection to discuss. The first of these is the law, and the second is the societal implementation of that law. If everyone takes a deep breath and looks upthread, they can see that this whole imbroglio started because I argued that safe space is not created to provide a haven for those unprotected by law. In the US, everyone is protected by law. This is why if you shoot a poor illegal immigrant Muslim lesbian from Africa, you will be arrested. However, provided you have the right cash flow, and the right attorney, the right jury and so forth, you might not go to jail. This is because society often lags law (just as law often lags society). We can pretend there isn't a divergence in law and society, but that would be foolish, considering the war on drugs, the status of abortion etc. In the US, legal protection for minorities in terms of violence or crime is the same as for the "majority." Obviously, the social protection is vastly different.

What you are doing is using a very narrow definition of the term 'protection under law' that allows you to make statements which are shockingly misleading.

I think if you reread my original posts, you'll find that I demarcated legal and social protection from the outset. I am reacting specifically to the charge (originally presented by Disco IIRC) that safe space exists to fill a legal void. Perhaps we ought to get down to providing examples of safe space, why we would say they are safe, what they are safe from and so forth. Haus and Persephone have laid out a series of proposals, which we might apply to concrete examples.
 
  

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