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The Passion: Mel Goes Bonkers

 
  

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at the scarwash
19:41 / 30.10.03
Mel's dad lives here in houston. Here's a pretty decent article discussing the views of Gibsons père (the focus of the article) and fils on such wonderful matters as the authenticity of the Holocaust and the validity of the pope. The guy's nuts. I don't think that fundamentalist is too strong a term. What Mel believes, I don't know.
 
 
FinderWolf
12:52 / 03.12.03
Mel has put THE PASSION's release on hold to re-edit.

From CNN:

Mel Gibson puts 'Passion' on hold
Wednesday, December 3, 2003 Posted: 7:38 AM EST (1238 GMT)

ROME, Italy (CNN) -- Mel Gibson has pulled "The Passion of Christ," depicting Jesus on screen, from a Vatican-sponsored film festival -- because his movie is not ready.

The unreleased, but controversial, movie about the final hours of the life of Jesus was scheduled to be shown Tuesday to a select group of Roman Catholic officials as part of the "Christ and the Cinema" festival.

But Gibson had "second thoughts" about some of the scenes and is re-editing the film, the movie's producer Nick Hill wrote in a letter to the organizer, Andrea Piersanti.

The former actor, who has written and is co-producing the film, said he would be happy to schedule a preview in the Vatican once the movie is finished, the letter added.

The festival screening was supposed to have been for a very restricted group to have included Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture; Archbishop John Foley, president of the Pontifical Council for Social Communications; and various religious experts from Roman Catholic universities based in Rome.

Organizer Piersanti said Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, prefect of the Congregation for Clergy, has already viewed an earlier version of the movie.

The film has already come in for criticism from some Jewish and Roman Catholic groups who are concerned it will fuel anti-Semitism.

Others, including fundamentalist Christians and media names such as columnist Cal Thomas and Jewish Web personality Matt Drudge, have said the film is "beautiful" and "magical."

Biblical scholars have called Gibson's reading of the New Testament into question, and rumors have floated that the script's sources allegedly include an 18th-century Roman Catholic mystic.

Gibson's company, Icon Productions, has denied the rumors and claimed that a Catholic-Jewish group criticizing the film had seen an earlier, stolen copy of the script.

The film is performed completely in Latin and Aramaic and features no Hollywood A-list actors.
 
 
Baz Auckland
13:36 / 03.12.03
I read an article the other day in Bible Review magazine (no online link unfortunately) explaining one of the main reasons that people think why the film may fuel anti-semitism.

According to the article, passion plays (such as this film) were marked for hundreds of years by annual attacks on the Jewish ghettos and citizens of the cities the plays were held in. Jews were advised to remain indoors during Lent in some cities, and in others, the dialogue of the plays was deliberately written to incite violence... many years the conclusion of the play was followed by riots in the Jewish quarters. Hitler visited a famous production in Oberammergau, Germany in 1934, and gave a speech praising the play for its depiction of Jews...

...given the nasty history of passion plays, it seems to makes more sense why people are worried of the content of this one... this was the first time I had heard of this background to the idea of passion plays...
 
 
FinderWolf
15:18 / 03.12.03
That's kind of BS to say that passion plays themselves are intrinsically bad because someone twisted them around 50 years ago, when they've been performed for hundreds of years. Does that mean we've got to say JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR, JESUS OF NAZARETH and GODSPELL and any other good versions of the death of Jesus are tainted, Jew-hating stuff too? (I'm not saying you're saying this, Baz, just wanted to decry the logic of the idea that passion plays = racist "Oh my God! They killed Jesus!" rants) (and yes, I did want that quote to be said in the SOUTH PARK "they killed Kenny!" voice)

I honestly feel all this furor over the movie is nonsense. See my earlier posts for exactly why.
 
 
Baz Auckland
16:15 / 03.12.03
...but that was my point: for the last 800 years, passion plays were intentionally used and performed to incite violence against Jews. Not just 50 years ago. Hence the alarm of further depictions and violence, especially with worries of rising anti-semitism worldwide. We'll just have to wait and see how the movie actually treats it all...
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
20:11 / 03.12.03
The more I hear about this movie, the more I think that the money people involved are doing a brilliant job of promotion. They are playing off of the fact that most Fundamentalist Christians feel that they are "persecuted" (which is a near inversion of reality) and making it dso every Sounthern Baptist will be there the first day to see this movie, which sounds more like some pretentious art film than a religious movie. It also has been in the news for almost a YEAR. You can't BUY that many ads.

So, my prediction? A huge opening weekend, a lot of sound and fury and a movie that well meaning Christians who think that the Left Behind series is literature and the movie version should have been up for an Oscar will force their children to watch over and over again. Until they start listening to heavy metal.
 
 
FinderWolf
20:14 / 03.12.03
Ahh, OK, I see what you're saying now. My misunderstanding.

I had never heard that - that passion plays were used to incite anti-Semetic violence. If it was a Bible magazine, I can't question your source. But I would argue that the passion play has developed (or had originally, I would hope) value and drama instrinsic to itself and has value if you remove the whole inciting violence thing. And that's certainly not the tone of any great works about the death of Jesus for the last 80 years or so, not counting Hitler. So I guess I would argue don't confuse the past message with the messenger. And I've never heard of passion plays ending with "Now let's go get the Jews!!" and I've seen a few of 'em in addition to seeing several mainstream movies and plays on the subject.

The story as it is (we can argue about it's truth) shows Jesus scorned and humiliated by the mainstream society. Sure, a lot of that society were Jews, but to me the theme is clearly about Jesus' message of peace and love being a threat to, and rejected by, the society, as well as being too mind-blowing for anyone to deal with. And I think that's what any non-anti-Semite who thinks the story of Jesus is a powerful one would think.
 
 
h3r
00:22 / 04.12.03
i cant hold back anymore, and i'll risk being lynched by my employers for breaking my silence disclosure agreement...
i've been working on the sound for the flick for the past 6 months and i can assure you all that it's a powerful well made movie and definitely not antisemitic. you'll see braveheart V2.0 with a twist.
to me it does not appear as though all the controversy in the media is a planned marketing campaign. gibson is getting so much shit from everywhere, and I believe everybody involved would rather just stick to working on their art instead of trying to defend themselves to the world and deal with unjustified allegations and complaints. hollywood can be a difficult place to operate in even when starpower and personal cash of a star is driving a project. why cant the media just go back to confronting catholic priests raping little kids, that seems to be a more pressing issue to me...
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
03:35 / 04.12.03
Just a quick question:

If it's not a marketing campaign, why is he only showing it to far right wing Christian media sources and giving TONS of interviews to Faux News?
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
08:52 / 04.12.03
HunterWolf

Yes, sure, historically, a bunch of Jews killed Jesus, but no one with a brain looks at it in those terms.

Like say for example the bible? Sorry if these are your beliefs HunterWolf but the bible is an intrinsicly anti-semetic, sexist, intolerant book. One of the reasons it is so is because of the context of the times it was written in. It's understandable and hopefully the decent people who are Christians across the world will understand and pick and choose from the positive stuff but you can't retrospectively erase 2000 years of Christian anti-semitism by saying nobody looks at in those terms these days, sadly they do. It's an anti-semetic tale anyway you cut it, I'm afraid you just have to come to terms with it.

Why is Mel Gibson considered anti-semetic?
 
 
Baz Auckland
09:39 / 04.12.03
reposted from above...

From what I've read, the anti-semitic hoopla seems to be partly because he wouldn't let Jewish leaders see a pre-release screening, and also because the church he's a part of (or founded?) refuses to recognise the Second Vatican Council which decided (amongst many other things) that the Jews weren't collectively guilty for killing Jésus.... which doesn't automatically mean that the Gibsons do believe that the Jews are collectively guilty....
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:11 / 04.12.03
the bible is an intrinsicly anti-semetic... It's an anti-semetic tale anyway you cut it

I've always found the first half particularly bad in that respect. The Jews get a really rough ride, always stuck in the desert and shit. Oh, and that Jewish guy who gets crucified near the beginning of the second bit, he's a really nasty racial caricature. Like something Hitler would do.

Seriously, Reid, are you on crack again, or have you just never read the Bible?
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
10:17 / 04.12.03
New Testament then, my apologies should have made myself clear.

And I meant why is Mel Gibson considered homophobic?

I rather thought the chap who got nailed to the tree was kind of considered the first Christian, albeit from Jewish descent. Is there a particular reason for this unpleasant bit of revisionism?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:56 / 04.12.03
Is there a particular reason for this unpleasant bit of revisionism?

I don't understand this question at all. Can I suggest you go away and read the Gospels and then get back to me? Not actually kidding here at all. I think if you do that, you'll find that Jesus was very much Jewish. And in addition to the fact that it would have been rather anachronistic for him to be a Christian (think about it), you seem to be under the impression that a Jewish person who becomes a Christian ceases to be Jewish, a position that is at best misguided and highly-contestable (usually only held by those at the dogmatic extremes of either group), at worst wilfully ill-informed and offensive.
 
 
Jack Fear
11:13 / 04.12.03
Keep in mind also that for the first hundred years of its history, Christianity was considered (and in fact essentially was) a sect of Judaism, rather than a full-blown religion of its own... and that the whole reason the Romans feared Jesus is because they were worried that he would lead a Jewish uprising in Roman-occupied Palestine... some understanding of the Zealot political movement and the messianic tradition of Judaism would be good, too...

Or, y'know, you can just keep making knee-jerk, simplistic, vaguely "anti-authority" statements on the grounds that they make you sound like a big clever iconoclastic rebel, and not an ill-informed poseur at all.

Whatever.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:24 / 04.12.03
There's always the intriguing possibility that ignorant people confidently making half-assed, sweeping generalisations and factually unsupported statements about very important events in the history and culture of both Christianity and Judaism is actually more damaging to the people and issues concerned, than a movie that few will be bothered to discuss in a couple of years time...

Like the man said, whatever.
 
 
Jack Fear
11:25 / 04.12.03
(I love being the Bad Cop.)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:44 / 04.12.03
I mean shit, even Paul says: "[T]he gospel... is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." - Romans 1:16

(Heh, Sunday School is officially in session...)
 
 
sleazenation
11:48 / 04.12.03
I'm sure most people will prefer the book
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:13 / 04.12.03


BILLY!
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
12:14 / 04.12.03
I'll have to confess that it has been a little while since I picked up a bible and my statement to my mind is self evidential which is of course never a good way to support an argument. If you wish consider this me concedeing the point.

Despite good points made about the history of Christianity, my reason for considering it anti-semetic is the blame attached for Jesus' death to the Jewish society at the time. This has been used throughout history to justify anti-semitism. You could argue that's just a particular group of people's take on the bible, Flyboy does demonstrate that the bible can be read any number of ways and you can take any number of messages from it but I don't believe that it's a passive document, it's written from an ideological perspective and that perspective to me appears anti-semitic. There's also the question of who's/which bible we're talking about How much of what's in any sect's bible today survives from the first 100 years of Christianity's existence. Is the story alegorical or supposed to be read as a historical fact?

I don't think criticising wht is nominally my culture is particularly iconaclastic, more par for the course, I also tend to be of the opinion that the various Christian institutions are big enough and hard enough to look after themselves pretty much.

If not the bible then why all the anti-semitism? I know there's a great deal of other issues financial, societal, cultural, political etc. But you treally don't feel the bible played a part in this?

Weird.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:55 / 04.12.03
It would actually be helpful,in terms of placing this in context,if we knew on which Gospel account Gibbo has based his film.

Folks talk about "The Gospels" as if they were one monolithic entity, which they manifestly aren't. The four accounts were written at differing times, for differing audiences, and contradict each other freely in order to pursue their varying agendas.

The most famous example is the "Blessed are they" sermon: in Matthew it's the Sertmon on the Mount, because Matthew, written for a Jewish audience, consciously places Jesus in the Jewish prophetic tradition, and the Old Testament was always big on signs being handed down from mountaintops.

In Luke, which was written for a Greek audience and which places more emphasis on the promise of universal salvation, Jesus gives the same sermon--not on a mountaintop, but "on a level plain." Symbolic, no?

It is the gospel of John that places the blame for the crucifixion most squarely on "the Jews"--mostly because John had some large axes to grind with the Jewish authorities of his day. Some of these were purely theological (John's gospel is far more mystically-minded than the other three), but there's a political element as well: the "scribes and the chief priests and the elders" come in for a good kicking because John sees them as Quislings, collaborating with the Roman occupational forces in order to advance the interests of their own sect (which further marginalized the mystical Jewish sect to which John subscribed).

But what the second Vatican council asserts is that we cannot generalize from John's gospel the collective guilt of all Jews in the death of Christ. Indeed, it is absurd to do so, since John was a Jew himself, albeit one from a different sect from the ruling powersnof his day. It was religion and politics in an unholy marriage.

(Off-topic: The same thing is going on today in Tibet, by the way; the Chinese, realizing they cannot stamp out the indigenous people's Buddhism entirely, is instead promoting the religion to suit their own needs--throwing official support behind sects who do not recognize the authority of the Dalai Lama, such as the worshippers of Dorje Shugden, and also--surprise!--announcing the discovery of reincarnated lamas who support the Chinese. This serves to both legitimize the occupation, by giving it the stamp of divine approval, and make more difficult the Dalai Lama's goal of uniting the Tibetan diaspora, by providing alternatives to his authority. Divide and conquer, kids.)

Important to realize, too, that most of the homophobic / oppressive / hateful stuff of Christian doctrine comes not from Jesus Himself, but from Paul, who was not only a Quisling Roman collaborator (pre-road-to-Damascus), but who never even met Jesus in the flesh, but somehow managed to convince everyone that he understood Him and His message better than those who had.

I take Paul with a huge grain of salt: he came out of a fringe-y Jewish sect (the Essenes), and carried most of their heretical notions with him into his conversion--hatred of the body and the material world chief among them. Basicaally, he was a Jewish heretic who became a Christian heretic who, through good PR, ended up one iof the Father of the Church. Go figure.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
12:55 / 04.12.03
And if the Bible is reliable history? How can history be anti-semetic?

Everybody seems to be forgetting. Yeah, in the passion story all the bad guys are Jews - but all the good guys are Jews too.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:01 / 04.12.03
So something is racist/anti-Semetic if it's not inherently presenting a racist/anti-Semetic view but if people twist it and use it for racist agendas? Interesting... and it's also interesting to sweepingly generalize about something you admit you haven't looked at in a long time and seem to be possess a minimal knowledge of. But you did say you conceded that point to some degree, so I should calm down on this point. I love a good debate and sometimes get a little too passionate about it.

I'm not one to say the Bible is devoid of societal and political influence, and one could say its sexist, except that it's merely mirroring the views of the society at the time in that respect. And I'm hardly a Bible-thumped who thinks it's all divinely inspired and everything in it must be true, and we must obey every word of it mindlessly. We all know it was tweaked and rewritten in many places to serve the needs of those in power.

But, where in the Bible does it say 'curse the Jews, for they killed Jesus, and they are clearly inferior and hateful, and we should go get them and erase them from the earth'? Where do you see an anti-semetic perspective in the text itself, as opposed to what you or others project onto it?

But I have to admit, resistable, your last post came off a lot more level-headed and reasonable than the others, and I applaud you for that. I mean that genuinely, I don't mean to sound condescending.

BUT, here we are talking about the movie, and I think it's really cool that someone who's doing sound for it posted above. Don't worry, we won't tell and you didn't use your name anyway

Flyboy, what's the "BILLY" picture you posted above? All I see that sad little red "X".
 
 
Jack Fear
13:04 / 04.12.03
To answer your question, Reidcourcie: I think it's more a case of people using the Bible to justify a hatred that already existed.

As to the root reason for that hatred? Good old-fashioned xenophobia. Tribalism. Fear of the Other.

Why have so many white people historically hated and feared black people? There's no Biblical reason for it--and when these Aryan Nations/World Church of the Creator wackos try to "explain" race hatred in Biblical terms, it sounds like exactly what it is; an after-the-fact justification, a twisting of the text to fit a pre-existing prejudice.

Just so with anti-semitism, I think. Some folks just get off on hatin' other folks, is all, and don't have the self-awareness to admit. So they invent a "reason."
 
 
FinderWolf
13:07 / 04.12.03
Excellent post, Jack Fear.

>> the "scribes and the chief priests and the elders" come in for a good kicking because John sees them as Quislings, collaborating with the Roman occupational forces in order to advance the interests of their own sect (which further marginalized the mystical Jewish sect to which John subscribed).

But how does this make John's Gospel the most anti-Semetic? Where does it say anything directly about the Jews? I think talking about the elders and leaders of the society is like talking about the gov't or "the man" in our society today - they just happened to be Jewish in those times because everyone was Jewish.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:10 / 04.12.03
BTW--a spelling note. Jews (and Arabs) are Semites--literally, "the people of Shem" (i.e., descendants of Noah's son Shem). Those who hate people of this ethnicity are anti-semites, and thus anti-semitic; or they practice anti-semitism.

It's a little thing, but it makes me crazy. Please: one E, and one E only.

Ah thenkew.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:11 / 04.12.03
Flyboy, what's the "BILLY" picture you posted above? All I see that sad little red "X".

Jeremy Sisto as Jesus.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:25 / 04.12.03
HunterWolf: For one thing, John (in english translation) uses "the Jews" as shorthand. Whereas Matthew says things like "Pilate went before the crowd..." John says "Pilate went before the Jews..."

John 19:15 is the most damning in this regard: Pilate asks, "Shall I crucify your King?" and "the Jews" answer him, "We have no King but Caesar."

Obviously that's John taking a political shot at the Jewish leadership of his time; but the use of the blanket term "the Jews" is the hot-button, here. Perhaps--most likely--John used the term because he no longer self-identified as Jewish, because he felt so betrayed by / alienated from the chief priests, much in the same way that an American citizen, protesting his own country's foreign policy, might talk disgustedly about "America": America thinks it can do this...

But as we get further away from the events, the subtleties are lost. And unless you think critically about the text, and understand its context, you may read it as a justification to blame all Jews for the death of Jesus.

If you've got an itching to bust some Jewish skulls to begin with, well, let's just that will effect your interpretation, too.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
13:53 / 04.12.03
I asked a mate of mine who knows more about such stuff than I do to have a look at the thread, he just sent me an e-mail saying "You are wrong, don't have time explain later." Anyway I can look forward to some biblical book learning the next time I'm down London way.

This is an interesting thread even if I do have to rexamine one of my beliefs to see if it's just a tired old prejudice. Couple of questions though:

Jack what you seem to be saying about the gospel of John is it has stuff within that can be interpreted as anti-semitic but was in fact internecine bickering between sects? Is that correct?

Posted by Jack Fear

Why have so many white people historically hated and feared black people? There's no Biblical reason for it--and when these Aryan Nations/World Church of the Creator wackos try to "explain" race hatred in Biblical terms, it sounds like exactly what it is; an after-the-fact justification, a twisting of the text to fit a pre-existing prejudice.

Agreed but this is where I think anti-semitism was somewhat different, again not really my area but my understanding medieval/renaissance Christian doctorine thought that if a Jew converted to Christianity they were welcomed into the fold , pretty much without prejudice (yes I know the situation was somewhat different in Spain) to the extent there was a pope who was born Jewish. This to me suggests a different "flavour" (please excuse, can't think of another way to put it at the moment) or tribalism.

Posted by Jack Fear

But what the second Vatican council asserts is that we cannot generalize from John's gospel the collective guilt of all Jews in the death of Christ. Indeed, it is absurd to do so, since John was a Jew himself, albeit one from a different sect from the ruling powersnof his day. It was religion and politics in an unholy marriage.

But the Vatican seems to feel they somehow have a right to sit in judgement of another religion even if it is to graciously exonerate it.

Also posted by Jack Fear

Important to realize, too, that most of the homophobic / oppressive / hateful stuff of Christian doctrine comes not from Jesus Himself, but from Paul, who was not only a Quisling Roman collaborator (pre-road-to-Damascus), but who never even met Jesus in the flesh, but somehow managed to convince everyone that he understood Him and His message better than those who had.

See this would also tend to support my beliefs/preconceptions/prejudices as regards the bible. WHich leads me to HunterWolf

Posted by Hunter Wolf

So something is racist/anti-Semetic if it's not inherently presenting a racist/anti-Semetic view but if people twist it and use it for racist agendas?

Not what I'm saying, it's a case of degrees. I think that there are anti-semitic/hateful messages in the bible (subject to further scrutiny) but I'm not suggesting that was the bibles purpose or what it was written for, you can twist anything but do you feel that the book is a passive document and we add all meaning? That would seem to fly in the face of what the thing was written for. What seems to be suggested is that you take all the good stuff and ignore all the bad stuff which is fine for a system of belief but not neccessarily so for an analysis.

Hunter absolutly no offence taken I apologise if my initial post sounded like a slam at you.

Also posted by HunterWolf

I'm not one to say the Bible is devoid of societal and political influence, and one could say its sexist, except that it's merely mirroring the views of the society at the time in that respect.

Whilst I am allowing for the time it was written in I am judging it by today's standards.

Praise the lord, I have been born again! Where the fuck's my crack!
 
 
FinderWolf
14:53 / 04.12.03
Excellent points all around! Fine discussion here. I really don't have anything to add, but I've learned a bit from this thread and that's always good We'll have to see how the movie turns out.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
09:44 / 09.12.03
At the risk of flogging a dead horse. There is this thread here on the Guardian.

http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?14@77.MEEMcRwoEIN.3@.685ecab9/0

(apologies I have not the slightest idea of how to post links properly). It would definitely seem to support the idea that a literal reading of the bible is anti-semitic and that Christianity from very early in it's history had elements of anti-semitism within it.

I also don't buy the one tribe hating the other argument as an explanation o of anti-semitism, it's obviously a factor and a major one but there seems to have been Christians throughout history who thought that their anti-semitism had divine mandate, this belief must have come from somewhere.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:59 / 09.12.03
All the evidence in that thread indicate the Roman Catholic Church's abominable behavior, but none of it seems to show any proof of the Bible as it as being anti-Semetic. Even John's saying "the Jews" as meaning "the people [or the leaders] of the society & culture" doesn't mean anything but identifying them. It's like talking about people from the U.S. as "Americans", or people from New York as "New Yorkers." None of that seems remotely prejudiced to me. Even if the Bible says "the Jews beat Jesus and mocked him", it pretty clearly means the people of the area, since the entire area was Jewish.

Until I see something in the Bible (or more specifically, the Gospels) that says we should see the Jews as inferior beings and blames them for Christ's death, I won't be convinced that there's anything in the Bible which supports an anti-Semetic reading. Did the Catholic Church as an insitution do lots of horrible things through the years, only one of which was foster anti-Semetism? Of course. But did the Bible tell them to, in any direct or even indirect way? Nope.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
06:53 / 10.12.03
Originally posted by Jack Fear

It is the gospel of John that places the blame for the crucifixion most squarely on "the Jews"--mostly because John had some large axes to grind with the Jewish authorities of his day. Some of these were purely theological (John's gospel is far more mystically-minded than the other three), but there's a political element as well: the "scribes and the chief priests and the elders" come in for a good kicking because John sees them as Quislings, collaborating with the Roman occupational forces in order to advance the interests of their own sect (which further marginalized the mystical Jewish sect to which John subscribed).

Would you be comfortable with the material that Jack discusses above in a modern book/film/or media product? It seems you have to go quite deep in to the background of the situation at the time to explain that it is a "theological" disagreement and even that could be seen as apologism.
 
 
The resistable rise of Reidcourchie
06:57 / 10.12.03
What you seem to be saying HW is that the anti-semitism would have to be pretty blatent before you'll accept it, now personally and judging by this thread alone it does seem pretty blatent. In John the blame for the crucifiction is laid at the door of the Jews, that has been the reason given by Christians throughout the ages to justify ant-semitic behaviour, that's not someone reading into it, that's someone just reading it.
 
  

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