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Abraham, father of Isaac, father of Israel

 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
23:19 / 18.09.02
So I'm taking a Bible class after my Harmony class got canceled (every music class I have ever tried to take post-high school, except my guitar II class last semester, has been canceled before I get to go to a single class. Message from God? Maybe...). I've had years upon years of biblical training from my catholic church and protestant high school, so I admit I wasn't expecting to hear much I hadn't heard already. The only interesting thing about the class was that it's taught by the same professor who teaches my World Religions class. But here it is, the night after the second class, and already my mind has been blown.

Dig this, cats. All these years I never once got the jewish perspective on the old testament. Thinking about it now, what the hell was I thinking then? Studying it from either a catholic or protestant perspective wasn't going to reveal the depths of profundity in the OT. well, it could have, but the perspective of the people who use it most often would certainly have been a better idea. Check it out:

So Abraham wanted a son by his wife Sarah, right? Simple request. He just wanted a kid by the woman he loved. God, in his infinte grace, grants him his wish. Sarah, although barren, bears Isaac.

Time goes on. One day, God calls out to Abraham, and reports that he wants Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac (or Ishmael, if you're of the Islamic tradition. Ishmael was the son of Abraham and his servant woman). Abraham, no doubt a little confused, agrees.

I imagine you have all heard the story, no doubt used in a sermon on obidience or blind faith. That's how I always heard it. Abraham, ignoring his own love for his son, does God's will anyway. Or: Abraham, knowing God would never do anything to hurt the boy that he gave to Abraham, goes ahead and raises the knife, only to be stopped by God.

I never liked either of these. To me, there was never any justification for God to toy with Abraham like that. No lesson Abraham learned would erase the torment he would have gone through the three days between God's message and the sacrifice. Except the one that my professor came up with.

First off, Abraham would not have found it odd that his god was asking for him to sacrifice his son. Is was fairly common at the time to sacrifice whatever was most important to you to your god. And what was more important to Abraham than his son? Human sacrifice was certainly not unusual among the pagan civilizations surrounding Abraham. Everything's perfectly normal here, move along...

Except that Abraham's god was supposed to be a god of love, right? Obviously there's something wrong with this picture. But he goes along anyway, you know, prepares for the trip, brings his servants with him, and he, his servants, and Isaac (or possibly Ishmael) head off to the mountain. Abe and Isaac go the last bit by themselves. At one point, Isaac asks Abraham about the noticeable lack of a sacrificial lamb. Abraham answers that the Lord will supply the lamb.

So Abraham straps Isaac to a rock, and prepares to sacrifice him to his God. Just before he is about to strike, the lord stops him and-...wait! How does he stop him? Like in that painting where an angel appears and stays Abraham's hand? No, although I was told that many times as a youth. If you read the biblical account, you'll notice that Abraham heard god calling out to him again, much like when He let Abraham in on the whole sacrifice thing. So he hears the voice of God telling him not to kill his son, and he doesn't. They all go home after killing a ram and renaming the mountain.

Now, the ending always seemed fucked up to me. There's no way that Abraham, God and Isaac could have survived that experience emotionally. There would definately be some trust issues from then on. There would have to be, unless my sense of the father/son relationship is much more fucked up than I think it is.

But it works out fine if you look at it like this: so Abraham hears that God wants him to kill his son. He's torn. He loves his son, so that makes the idea of sacrificing him to his god that much more sensible. Give what you value most to your god. Everyone's doing it. But his god is a god of love. Why would He ask this?

So Abraham, at the mountain with knife raised, hears the voice of God. But coming from where? No angel appeared to stop him, he just heard the voice. Where does God's voice come from? Well, God, obviously, so where is God? Heaven? Why not. Where is the Kingdom of Heaven? According to Christ, it's in each of us. And according to the Jewish tradition, it's our innermost heart. That's what Abraham listened to. With the knife raised, he looked inside himself for the answers. Listening to his innermost feelings, he tuned in to the Kingdom of Heaven and thus heard his God telling him that human sacrifice was no good.

Interesting note: the name "Israel" (which was given to Isaac's son Jacob later on) means "he who wrestles/struggles with God". According to the Jewish tradition, we are in a Living Relationship with a Living God. The story of Abraham isn't about blind faith or strict obidience. It's just the opposite. It's about a man's struggle with his God, it's about a man who listens to his own heart, his True Self, to hear God's voice. Because that's what it means to be in a relationship, right? A real, honest, full relationship isn't a stale or dead thing. There's struggle of all kinds going on in the healthiest of relationship. And in a relationship with a living God, the real relationship is done by the True Self. Come to think of it, Christ was always directing the questioners inward, telling people to look into themselves for the answers.

Isn't that just fucking cool? I mean, this gives me a new way to look at the Old Testament. Who knew Judaism could be so fucking neat? It doesn't even matter if it could be a lot of bunk that the professor made up. I think it works well as a decent interpretation of this particular part of Genesis.
 
 
iconoplast
23:25 / 18.09.02
I heartily reccomend Kierkegaard's _Fear and Trembling_, which discusses the story of Abraham at great length. It is, yeah, a really weird story that nobody seems to think about.
 
 
the Fool
23:37 / 18.09.02
I always had issues with this story. And also with the book of Job, where God does satan's bidding and kills off Job's family while destroying the rest of his life.
 
 
Persephone
23:39 / 18.09.02
That's interesting. So let me ask you another question, would it have been Abraham's innermost feelings telling him to kill his son in the first place? All the more interesting...
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
23:42 / 18.09.02
Interesting note about the book of Job: I as well had issues with Job, again because nothing justified what God did to Job. Sure, he gave him more kids and more wealth, but that wouldn't take away the pain Job felt after losing his entire family. But the thing is, apparently Job felt this way as well. It's not like everyone says, where Job's wife and all his friends are trying to convince him to curse God openly and Job sternly refuses to doubt God's plan. I need to re-read it, because I've been told that at points Job does get really upset with God and starts asking questions and Job's friends actually defend God at one point and they're all walking on thier hands and hamburgers are eating people. I need this settled soon.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
23:44 / 18.09.02
Persephone: Yeah, weird, isn't it? Or what if Abraham himself chose whether he was going to follow a God of Love or a God like all the others? I suppose it gets down to the place where God and his subjects are all the same thing like the sufis talk about.

Still: does this sound like an acceptable interpretation? Am I just drunk on satori?
 
 
Jack Fear
00:12 / 19.09.02
Keep in mind the historical and cultural context, too. Remember that the Hebrew storm god Yahweh was only one of the big gods in the region, and Judaism only one of several compeing monotheisms (more properly, henotheism—belief in/worship of one god without necessarily believing he's the only god. The Hebrews followed a single god, but believed in many: Moloch, Baal, Dagon—the gods of their neighbors—were quite real to them, Yahweh asked for exclusivity of worship but in a way that tacitly allowed for the existence of others: "You shall have no other gods before me." And in the psalmist's refrain of "How great is our God," the emphasis is on our.

So one of the key undercurrents of the Old Testament is the people of Israel setting themselves apart from the other tribes of the region—defining themselves in oppositional terms: If the Philistines or the Pethorites do it, then we don't, and vive le difference. The story of the binding of Isaac serves this agenda: a common slander about their rivals the Canaanites was that their worship of their god Moloch involved sacrifice and burning of first-born children in high places.

Was this true? Did the Canaanites really sacrifice their firstborn? We can't say: the Canaanites are lost to time, and the histories were written by the winners, as always. But we can say with certainty that one function of the Isaac story was to define Yahweh as being very clearly Not Moloch, and make no mistake.

A couple of factual corrections: the Islamic version of the story is the same as the Hebrew version, with Isaac on the slab and Ishmael out of the picture entirely. Isaac does not leave the moutntain with his father, but wanders for some time. He and Ishmael meet after Abraham's death, and bury him together.

Also—and perhaps most importantly—the source of the voice is explicitly identified as an angel: the angel does not appear on earth, but it is an angel, calling from Heaven... although in its second speech, the angel says "This is Yahweh speaking" (rather like the boss who's taken the telephone away from his employee).

I rather suspect your teacher's interpretation to be well-meaning touchy-feely bullshit. Yahweh was hardly a "god of love" in the OT: he could be a hard, bloodthirsty motherfucker, smiting heathens, foreigners, and mocking children left and right (although again, context is vital: he was after all a motherfucker among motherfuckers). Then again, he can surprise you with his mercy, as when he decides not to destroy Nineveh after all, and leaves his prophet Jonah standing on the outskirts of town, impotent with rage.

This is the other undercurrent of the Old Testament—that God (as we come to know Him) is utterly unknowable, and that second-guessing Him is a fool's game: this really comes to a head with the book of Job.

Oh, and need I point out that the story of Isaac echoes both backwards and forwards in time—back to the story of Cain and Abel, and forward to the Passion? Didn't think so.
 
 
Seth
00:27 / 19.09.02
Job is a marvellous and mysterious book indeed. I've said it before: G.K. Chesterton's Introduction to the Book of Job is by far the best commentary I've read on the text. The important thing to note about the story is that the Fool has posted the exact reverse of what is in the text. God manipulates Satan, putting the ideas in his head at every stage. It is God who allows Satan access to His courts, God who suggests that Satan pay attention to Job, and God who allows Satan to torment His faithful follower.

I won't try to paraphrase Chesterton's explanation God's conduct in this baffling book, as his wit and insight are much greater than mine. As far as my own comments on the text, I believe that in much of the Old Testament God is revealed as a force of nature, impartial in His seemingly arbitrary turns of good nature and wrath. The stories form one overall meta-narrative of the people of Israel growing up, facing hardships that are both just and unjust. God is personified as a force of discipline and as the created world as a result, in order that He embody the necessary elements to support the narrative's mythic structure.
 
 
the Fool
02:54 / 19.09.02
God manipulates Satan, putting the ideas in his head at every stage. It is God who allows Satan access to His courts, God who suggests that Satan pay attention to Job, and God who allows Satan to torment His faithful follower.

Why not just say God decides to torment Job and destroy his family. Its the same thing really. There is a cruelty here that I cannot fathom. That people might suffer for God's entertainment.
 
 
Stone Mirror
04:06 / 19.09.02
Who knew Judaism could be so fucking neat?

Sh! We don't like that to get out.
 
 
Seth
07:31 / 19.09.02
Man. Read the post again, Fool (plus the link that goes with it). The point of the post is that these are myths, stories that speak turth that isn't necessarily literal. In this case, the symbolic meaning of a man who is damaged by the destructive force of nature (the act of Satan, commissioned by God) is clear, in that it talks about unspeakable things happening to good people. In other words, it speaks of a universal truth. Again, this story prefigures the passion narrative: one person who will face trials which are unfairly loaded against them. The world as a crucible for change and growth (if you choose to see it in that way), some agents of change being more readily understandable than others. More on this when I get access to a couple of the books I've lent out.
 
 
Tom Coates
09:41 / 19.09.02
I'm unconvinced by the labelling of myths as 'symbolic' in the sense that we tend to use nowadays. The sense of ancient mythology as being something in which meaning is 'encoded' is very much a modern approach to them - and is potentially more of a result of the science of interpretation that emerged around the bible than it is something that's within the texts themselves. A psychoanalytic perspective would probably argue that all narrative tends towards satisfying unconscious desires and needs of some kind - and this is almost the same thing, but otherwise what reason do we have to believe that this stuff isn't supposed to be presented or thought of literally...

One interesting aside, however - in the Walter Ong book I've just finished he talks about the 'precameral' imagination - which basically boils down to the idea that pre-literate societies that are unfamiliar with thinking of words as objects but rather events often conceived of their own concepts or ideas as voices within their minds - voices which could often be conceived of or externalised as gods of one kind or another. I thought that might be interesting and pertinent to the discussion.
 
 
The Natural Way
09:55 / 19.09.02
Absolutely....the division between subject and object, inside and outside just didn't exist in the same way to ancient cultures - or, at least, appear to be approached very differently.
 
 
Persephone
11:47 / 19.09.02
the idea that pre-literate societies that are unfamiliar with thinking of words as objects but rather events often conceived of their own concepts or ideas as voices within their minds - voices which could often be conceived of or externalised as gods of one kind or another. I thought that might be interesting and pertinent to the discussion.

But doesn't that lend support to the "symbolic" intepretation of myths? Also I agree that meaning may not have been intentionally encoded in ancient mythology, but ...hm, I guess I'm in the habit of thinking that intentionality doesn't matter. That's kind of weird, I just realized how much I think that...
 
 
Jack Fear
12:24 / 19.09.02
There is a cruelty here that I cannot fathom.

But that be the whole point, ye scurvy dog: that ye cannot hope to fathom God's ways.

The moral o' the Book of Job be: Shut up.
 
 
gridley
13:50 / 19.09.02
Arrgh, me hardees. I've always seen this particular story (along with Job and others) as proof that God is not only not omniscient, but is also quite neurotic. To my mind, God was thinking something like this:

"Well, that Abraham really likes me, doesn't he? At least he seems to. Hmmmmmm. But maybe he's acting like he worships me, but in his heart he prefers Baal. Gasp! And maybe he's only pretending to like me because I gave him a son out of a barren womb! Double gasp! I know! I'll make him kill his son, and if he's willing to do that, he must totally love me! Oh shit, look at that! He's really going to do it! Awwww... that is soooooo sweet. That's it, I'm making him a patriarch. His descendents are gonna be wayyyyyyy chosen. Ooops, better let him know he can stop with the killing..."
 
 
Ray Fawkes
14:07 / 19.09.02
Why not just say God decides to torment Job and destroy his family. Its the same thing really. There is a cruelty here that I cannot fathom. That people might suffer for God's entertainment.

On the other hand, why not say that God draws the adversary's attention to Job in order to demonstrate an uplifting quality of humanity: that even in the face of the 'unfathomable cruelty' of life and fortune, they can hold on to faith and love of their creator (and, implicit in that, all of creation - which embodies the creator).

What makes you think any of this is 'entertaining' to God in the text? What I read from it is simply a demonstration of a hard-luck case who doesn't lose his footing.

I mean, if you want to get modernist about it, you could say that it's practically a self-help piece. "You think you've got it bad - check out what happened to this guy. And he weathered it all. You can too."
 
 
Seth
21:57 / 19.09.02
It probably was intended to be thought of literally, Tom. I just don't think that makes much difference to the psychological value of the stories: they're still constructed by people, and need a receptive audience in order to be passed down by oral tradition. Any text that doesn't strike a chord with its audience is likely to not last very long - and in the case of the Old Testament, we're talking texts that people still find valuable today. The reason why these stories work, why they're written and why they're successful has everything to do with people and their observations about themselves and the world.

Define irony: a Christian telling a forum of people who aren't Christians that not all of the Bible should be taken literally.

I'd better keep my head down before Haus tells me I don't understand what irony is.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:38 / 20.09.02
I rather suspect your teacher's interpretation to be well-meaning touchy-feely bullshit.

I've accepted this as a possibility. Even though the story is still in Genesis, and loads of proof that God can be a vengeful ass is still on the way, God has already shown his less than peaceful side. Even so, I like it.

I have an idea concerning whether or not God himself were learning how to deal with humans in an everyday relationship, put I'm having trouble presenting it correctly. You know, "Israel" and all. Maybe God was struggling to.

...I'm not sure I want to take that too far.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:43 / 20.09.02
The moral o' the Book of Job be: Shut up.

Isn't there a point where God basically says "who are you to question me? I see where you do not..." and so on. If that's the message of the book, God's a lot more lame than I thought He was. But I suppose I should at least give it a once-over to make sure I have some idea of what's going on in it. Symbolically speaking, that is.
 
 
Jack Fear
17:49 / 20.09.02
Maybe God was struggling too.

Read the Chesterton essay to which exp pointed: he makes the same point.
 
 
Seth
22:29 / 20.09.02
Johnny O: Again, read the Chesterton link. God doesn't say, "Who are you to question me." He actually poses a vast number of questions of Himself, questions that dwarf Job's in their immensity and implications. To paraphrase the essay, Job finds more comfort in the mysteries of God than he is the answers of man. The fact that God questions Himself. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
 
 
penitentvandal
07:29 / 21.09.02
Or, y'know, maybe it was all just TLE.

Or altitude sickness hallucinations.

Funny how all the big prophets (Moses, Abraham, Mohammed, &c) only get to talk to god after going up fuck-off high mountains, innit?
 
 
Rev. Wright
11:08 / 21.09.02
Can anyone explain further with regards the variation of Issac and Ishmael, between the two texts? What is the siginficance of the difference?
 
 
Seth
13:03 / 22.09.02
Funny how all the big prophets (Moses, Abraham, Mohammed, &c) only get to talk to god after going up fuck-off high mountains, innit?

Yeah. It's also funny that there were tons of prophets who spoke to God in all kinds of other situations. I think I see a pattern emerging...
 
 
grant
15:18 / 23.09.02
Isaac went on to lead the Jewish nation, Ishmael founded the Arab peoples.

The difference between one or the other being the sacrifice of Abraham the patriarch kind of puts spin on, say, the whole situation in the Middle East, theologically speaking.

The question of birthright also comes into play - which son was the eldest, which son was the sacrifice, which son is the "true" or "best" son of Abraham... which one inherited the relationship with God....
 
 
Rev. Wright
21:46 / 23.09.02
Rather topical then. cheers
 
 
Secularius
11:43 / 29.09.02
Judaism is all about internal struggle. Evil is not an external force trying to attack us but a part of each man that he has to conquer. The internal battle with the "dark side of the Force" (yeah it sounds like Star Wars) is something each man has to fight to achieve perfection. Isn't Islam's Jihad supposed to be a similar internal struggle instead of external war? What happened to this idea in Christianity? Somewhere along the way something important has been forgotten.
 
 
Seth
12:04 / 29.09.02
No, it hasn't. Those precepts are central to Christian theology. There are many Christians who are not living the honest personal battle according to this theology. There are many who are, and the issue is even more complex than those two positions allow for.

Can we please get over this binary nonsense and grow up? Isn't Barbelith about providing a critique for the critique? Why do otherwise intelligent people believe it's OK to approach something as vast and broad as a religion by making sweeping statements?
 
 
Secularius
12:54 / 29.09.02
Sorry if I was generalizing. I'm not saying that one religion is better than another, or that one should even practice any of them for that matter. Of course there are righteous people of all religions, and among agnostics and atheists. But the idea of the good/evil dualism has been simplified for the general public, evil is externalized and objectified by certain world leaders. For the Taliban America is Satan. For a large part of America the Taliban is Satan. These people are finding a scapegoat instead of fighting the internal battle. If these highly religious people would have been doing that in the first place 9/11 wouldn't have happened.
 
  
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