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Zen?

 
  

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reFLUX
19:25 / 13.09.02
looking for some online recources concerning Zen and its philosophy. i know that saying that you can not teach Zen... but i want some links to writings about it's basic presepts and so on. not books i can buy, just what's on the web, thanks very much.
if ya want you can use this space to discuss what Zen is to you. but mainly i am searching for stuff i can read online. please. i know i could use an engine to find something, but i figured this would get me better material. thanks.
 
 
Jack Fear
22:40 / 13.09.02
Student asks a Master, "Master, what is Zen?"

Master: "Do you want the short version, or the long version?"

Student: "Um, the short version."

Master: "Attention."

Student: "I don't get it... could you give me the long version?"

Master: "Sure: Attention, attention, attention."
 
 
—| x |—
06:22 / 14.09.02
Zen
 
 
kagemaru
09:50 / 14.09.02
Mostr online resources are unsatisfactory - to me at least - compared to books or just having a chat with someone interested in the subject.
A printed book, if nothing else, you can carry with you as you walk the city streets.

Anyway, try these

http://www.do-not-zzz.com/

http://www.ciolek.com/WWWVL-Zen.html

http://www.ibiblio.org/zen/
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:52 / 14.09.02
Consider the title of your thread. I'm thinking it's quite Zen.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:57 / 15.09.02
I remember starting a thread on Zen in the Magick. The first reply (I think it was Nick, actually) was "I don't do Zen. It gets in the way of my Zen." Which explains Zen pretty well, I have to admit.

There's always www.tricycle.com. It's not a bad place to start looking, but these days I really can't stand the place. For a bunch of buddhists, they're a catty lot.
 
 
Stone Mirror
23:43 / 15.09.02
For a bunch of buddhists, they're a catty lot.

They always have been. Nichiren (founder of the "Nam Myoho Renge Kyo Brigade") was in the habit of burning down rival monasteries back in fifteenth century Japan. Tibetan monasteries had standing armies well into this century.

With artillery, no less.
 
 
Jack Fear
11:44 / 16.09.02
Oh, it still goes on.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:35 / 16.09.02
Might I suggest a more definite question, to open this up into something a bit more Head Shop than the list-o'-links? Like, what is the history and ideology of Zen Buddhism and its offshoots? What do its practitioners seek to
achieve? What do people think about it?
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
15:38 / 16.09.02
So, Zen is white guys trying to be clever?

Fascinating.


That's a bit unfair. Phrases like "I don't do Zen. It gets in the way of my Zen," is not only a fair description of Zen and it's aims (or lack thereof), but it also gives a pretty good sample of the flavor of Zen.

I think the easiest way to describe Zen is as a way of liberation that openly admits that there is nothing to liberate nor anything to liberate it from. Something of this peculiar nature requires the observer to view it (please, please don't ask me what "it" is. It's best you don't think about it) from angles he is not familiar with, and trying to get someone to get to that place isn't at all easy. Trying to get a student to "think outside the box", as it were, requires a sharp ontological shock that seemingly impossible demands, unaswerable questions and anti-logical descriptions help create. Which may be why so many Zen masters seemed like lazy pretentious assholes one minute, and holy men the next.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:34 / 16.09.02
Like, what is the history and ideology of Zen Buddhism and its offshoots? What do its practitioners seek to achieve? What do people think about it?

Good, academic questions. Which, from the point of view of Zen, means they miss the point. Like Daoism (from which it is partially derived), Zen has a mistrust of being spoken about. The chatter of analysis gets in the way of doing it, which is the only way of knowing it.

From the alt.zen FAQ - a few answers:

In a nutshell, [the Buddha] realized that everything is subject to change and that suffering and discontentment are the result of attachment to circumstances and things which, by their nature, are impermanent. By ridding oneself of these attachments, including attachment to the false notion of self or "I", one can be free of suffering...Around 475 A.D. [a Buddhist teacher] traveled from India to China and introduced the teachings of the Buddha there. In China Buddhism mingled with Taoism. The result of this mingling was the Ch'an School of Buddhism. Around 1200 A.D. Ch'an Buddhism spread from China to Japan where it is called (at least in translation) Zen Buddhism.

The history of Zen, Ch'an, and Buddhism is tumbled and confused by claims of precedent and by religious politics. It's like trying to get the name of the man who invented Tai Chi or the writer of all the books of the Chuang Tzu. Many people know the Real Answer, but sadly all of them know a different one.

From 'The Tao of Zen' by Ray Grigg:

The way that is common to Taoism and Zen escapes definition. In both traditions it is undefinable and unexplainable, elusive, frustratingly near and far, always so close yet just outside intellect's reach. Indeed, the essential enigma of Taoism and Zen is the source of their wisdom and profundity - a freedom that is never enclosed by a system of understanding.

The books of Daoism reject the use of words ("The way which can be spoken of is not the true way"). Zen deploys the koans, paradoxical statements whose (re)solution or comprehension requires a moment of immanent understanding. The most famous of these is probably the question 'What is the sound of one hand clapping?' Zen is sometimes referred to as 'the gateless key'.

If you think anything 'about' Zen at all, you're mistaken. This whole lecture takes us further from Zen, not closer to it. Hence my initial response: consider the title of the thread. It's a far better guide to Zen than the FAQ. If that earlier aphorism about doing Zen is mine, I'm not embarrassed by it - it's not a bad one, though it yields too readily to an actual answer under analysis: the conscious 'doing' of Zen would blow your Zen out of the water. In a Zendo, you'd get clobbered with a bamboo stick.

But ultimately, I'm look for the Dao, which is far more forgiving of meandering.
 
 
Jack Fear
16:54 / 16.09.02
Reporter: "Mr Armstrong, what is jazz?"
Satch: "Man, if you gots to ask, you'll never know."

See? Black folks can be clever, too.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
17:08 / 16.09.02
But ultimately, I'm look for the Dao, which is far more forgiving of meandering.

"One can but move only towards the Tao".

A common description of talking about zen is "riding the water buffalo while looking for the water buffalo". You can't chew your teeth or see your eyes, so trying to "find" zen is impossible. You can't talk about it, you can't see it, you can't try to live more zen-fully, because the minute you start trying you're no longer doing it. You already know how to be a Buddha, so stop trying so much and just do it already.
 
 
grant
18:25 / 16.09.02
I seem to remember than "ch'an," the Chinese word that the Japanese word "zen" came from, just means "breath."
I've also heard that "zen," the Japanese word, literally means "sitting" (although that may be "zazen," the word for zen meditation).

The thing that hasn't come up yet that really separates Zen from other schools of Buddhism is the belief in "satori," or sudden enlightenment. In all other schools (that I know of), to reach enlightenment - the state of Buddhahood - requires diligent study that stretches over many lifetimes and reincarnations. The Zen way, however, makes it possible to reach that state within a single lifetime. It's a shortcut, reached through a single-minded dedication to absolute mindfulness. Everything you do becomes part of the work.

It's also worth pointing out that the blurriness between Taoism and Zen has something to do with language: apparently, when the first Buddhist missionaries reached China from India, there wasn't much in the way of ordinary Chinese vocabulary to describe Buddhist concepts - except in Taoist writings. So they started borrowing terminology from one another.
 
 
grant
18:29 / 16.09.02
This page for "yogacompany.com" seems really useful. It's got a fairly detailed history of Buddhism and Zen specifically, with an eye toward techniques and practice.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
20:54 / 16.09.02
"Zen: the name for each individual's true, original mind and substance"

From 'Morning Dew Drops of the Mind' by Shodo Harada Roshi.
 
 
Jack Sprat
06:03 / 17.09.02
This site is pretty rich with Buddhist texts, mostly Zen-related.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:45 / 14.10.02
For sale : Dolby 5.1 surround sample of the sound of one hand clapping.

Available as .mp3 or .wav file.

Waste no more time pondering frustrating and out of date koans.

Get ON with your life !

First to hear will buy.

Offers to DoctorMu@aol.com

NO TIMEWASTERS PLEASE!!!!!
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
12:48 / 14.10.02
OK, so you WANT to waste time ?

Google around for Alan Watts.

Or try www.deoxy.org (sorry Barbelith) and navigate to Alan Watts if you're really lazy.
 
 
The Natural Way
13:23 / 14.10.02
Or D.T. Suzuki.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:36 / 14.10.02
Does a cow have a Buddha nature?
 
 
brokenlink
17:18 / 14.10.02
zen
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
23:28 / 14.10.02
Does a cow have a Buddha nature?

I just got that, you clever bastard. Mirth!
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
01:37 / 15.10.02
You got it? Gimme Gimme Gimme Gi...oh

Doh!
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
01:41 / 15.10.02
Homer Simpson is surely one of the greatest Zen Masters to have ever not lived.

Favourite quote:

"It's because they're stupid! That's why everyone does everything!"
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
01:44 / 15.10.02
Does a cow have a Buddha nature ?

MMMMMMMMMMUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU !

MMMMMUUUUUUUU !

I've always wondered why the original questions was 'dog' not 'cow'.

Probably the whole 'sacred' gubbins.

But you have to love the onomatopaeia in the answer.

MMMMMMMMMMMUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU !

:-D

BTW, how do I reply with a quote?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:21 / 15.10.02
By copying and pasting in bold. There used to be an automatic quote function, but it ain't there no more. Tom decided we had to work.

Bold is done with standard HTML tagging.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
08:53 / 15.10.02
I'm not sure who said this but I do recall he was very much enlightened and so forth. Upon being asked by yet another trying-to-be-clever university student what was the best way to find zen. He replied that for each person it could be different and that maybe the student should first consider looking for the opposite.

This, to me, speaks volumes on what zen actually is.
 
 
cusm
18:38 / 15.10.02
Zen: the search for something you already have.

It is amazing how much energy people can expend at learning how to do nothing.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
07:58 / 16.10.02
Of which this thread is rapidly becoming a prime example.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:50 / 16.10.02
Well, yes. Having been told in no uncertain terms that I just wasn't getting in with the Zen of the thing, I've been interested to watch the thread rapidly descend, to my shallow Western eyes, into a morass of in-jokes, babbling, shouting, and the odd quote from somebody who was very enlightened (and so forth). If I wasn't such a stranger to Zen, I'd suggest that it's not a great reflection on the ancient art.

However, fortunately, I have been given a new and better set of possibilities here.

Zen melts gaijin brains.

It's true. Those wily orientals process language with the right side of their brains, without which unique ability Zen is going to sound just as fatuous as discordianism, Robert Anton Wilson or any other clever-by-numbers act of Western self-affirmation. Thus, there is a very important and significant discussion going on here, but to those outside the Vulcan mindmeld this will never be apparent. It's a lot like Greenland, really.

Or perhaps I misunderstand.
 
 
Mystery Gypt
11:33 / 16.10.02
There's plenty of interesting material to read about Zen. But as Haus may be suggesting this thread is suggesting, Zen is just one out of hundreds of school of Buddhist thought; historically, it is one that caught on in America in the mid 1800s and again more fervently in the mid 1950s because of it's poetic qualities, the apparent looseness of interpretation inherant to it, and exactly the winking-elbowing opportunities afforded by it "koans" and anti-linguistic ethic. In the west, we seem to feel like Zen means "getting all of buddhism without trying" or perhaps its the first encoded "Buddhism for Dummies." This isn't, of course, how it's practiced where it originated (China, where it has for the most part faded) or thrives (Japan, where like any other form of Buddhism outside of the goofy Americans, it is an integrated social / relgious organization.

Zen isn't particularly my favorite Buddhism. The Kantian reality-blender of Hua-Yen, for example, is a challenging and amazing philosophy that essentialy presents Derrida 1000 years earlier; Tibetan Philosophy is a lifetime of work to get through and is always surprising and relevant... etc. So...Given the fact that there is an incredible body of work from Buddhism that has been created over the past few thousand years, perhaps the interesting "headshoppy" question to ask here is, Why has Zen been adopted as the West's favorite Buddhism-- and what does that say about out motives and interests in the religion, both overt and hidden?
 
 
illmatic
11:47 / 16.10.02
Has it? Would you not say that Tibetian Buddhism is the West's favourite buddhism? cf. things like the status of the Dalai Lama and the ongoing campaign to Free Tibet becoming a celebrated and - dare I say it - fashionable cause.
Perhaps Zen had this popularity was for awhile around the 50s/60s - Watts, Keuroac, Ginsberg - and the term has since passed ino popular conciousness as a shorthand for anything minimalist.
 
 
The Natural Way
12:22 / 16.10.02
It's not only Zen that's full of Koans. Tibetan Buddhism and Sufism are choca w/ "teaching tales", often inducing the same headbending effect.

There's a common misconception that any koan is sufficient to induce satori - a kind of one size fits all approach - that, even a cursory inspection of the cultures/religions these funny little riddles originate in, proves utterly false. Very often the koan is introduced to the student by the master at a critical time in his zen "training" - an illumibomb timed and primed specifically for THAT student at THAT space in time. This practice is the product of a deep rooted master/disciple tradition that today's western zen freeforall completely ignores (fucking new-agers).
 
 
The Natural Way
12:23 / 16.10.02
You may already HAVE the awareness the koan is designed to activate; you may not need it; it might be inappropriate at this stage in yr development...etc.
 
  

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