BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Six of the best for you, you little minx

 
  

Page: (1)2

 
 
Sax
11:19 / 07.09.02
From the school uniform thread:

ZoCher - You do see tube trains full of twenty year olds in school uniform heading for Brixton Academy on Friday nights. Guess nostalgia for the shitty inbetween years fogs one's judgment in later years.

And:

Rev. Jesse: (insert predictable fantasy about tartan skirts and schoolgirl uniforms here)

Most of us will be aware of the current trend for attending club nights which take the form of a school disco of yore, to wit those organised by schooldisco.com. Participants are expected to dress up like schoolkids, which generally means a pair of black trousers, a white shirt and a stripy tie for the boys, and a tiny mini-skirt, a too-small blouse bursting open to reveal ample cleavage and hair in pig-tails for the girls.

It's not difficult to see who gets the better deal at these things.

But isn't it a teensy-weensy bit odd that school uniforms are now an apparently acceptable form of "sexy dressing"? Naturally, the fetish has been around for a lot longer than schooldisco.com - you only have to go back to Carry On Camping and the St Trinian films to see women in their 20s pretending to be highly-sexed teens.

I'm not singling Rev Jesse out for any other reason that his post was spot on - "insert predictable fantasy here". It has become a predictable fantasy.

But it's a bit odd, don't we think, to sexualise youth in a country obsessed with the potential paedophile living next door?

Any thoughts? See me after school.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:25 / 09.09.02
It's day four, and "molested and killed" is leading the field by a length. Looking at the two clean, well-scrubbed twins, artificial-looking in matching summer dresses, foregrounding a family portrait, he, married for twenty-two years and never so much as a deviant thought, ponders the madness, the sickness that could make these sexless, angelic young things an object of such ghastliness. Then, as it is Saturday and his wife has left to do the weekly shop, he retires to bed and enjoys a leisurely wank with the image of their sixteen-year old older sister. She is wearing a heavily St. Trinianised version of his daughter's old school uniform, and he is comforting her in an avuncular fashion, his hand slipping further and further up her stockinged thigh. The news may have come to Pannavale, but irony was still by the side of the road with her thumb out.

It's a curious doublethink, isn't it? The inviolable schoolgirl on the front cover, and then the very violable indeed schoolgirl on page 3. The School Disco phenomenon is a curious thing; as Saxy Boy says, it recreates a totally fictitious construct oof the schoolgirl, which is simultaneously highly sexualised and heavily media-constructed.

Is this about the pursuit of youth? A slightly fucked-up quest for lost innocence? Or just something very dull and evolutionary biology-esque about advertising youth and fertility?
 
 
bio k9
09:53 / 09.09.02
Its about guys who didnt get laid until their late 20s.
 
 
CorporateServices
10:30 / 09.09.02
> Its about guys who didnt get laid until their late 20s.

i resent that
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:37 / 09.09.02
Bio: You mean they are recreating a world where the women who were at the time sexually unavailable are now sexually available? But in that case, why are the women complicit? Why do they go along with it? And if somebody doesn't get laid before their late 20s, surely they are *never* going to get laid?
 
 
.
12:09 / 09.09.02
I'm not sure that it is a particularly sexual thing at all...

I reckon the phenomenon is primarily born out of a combination of nostalgia and a reluctance to visualise the future (either collectively or individually). Hence the participants revert back to childhood (or an idealised teen-hood anyhow). It's the Jerry Springer thing- when confronted with an uncertain future people seem to revert back to teenage behaviours (mostly flirting and fighting).

To generalise and propose a hugely speculative argument, I suggest that school-theme dress is closer related to "Car Wash"-style-70's-retro-disco-dress (all fake afros and ployester shirts) than any sort of fetish thing. i.e. it's nostalgia played out through style. So any sexualisation is a mere by-product of having a number of horny young people in one place. And by virtue of it being a nostalgia for a teenage attitude the sexuality manifests itself in the immature way that it does- a flirting rather than a fucking way.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:34 / 09.09.02
I suspect your analysis would break on the rocks of a night at School Disco. To compare and contrast, Prom Nightis intended as a kitschy tribute to a particular moment in our lives; the joke being, to an extent, that that moment is not our own proms, but watching other peoples' proms being represented in fiction.

School disco, St. Trinians et al, frequently refer again to a fictitious experience; if I was being nostalgic for my schooldays, the girls would not be wearing microskirts and stockings, and I suspect this is the case for most of us. Likewise, the reaction to Britney Spears doing her schoolgirl thing in the video to "Hit MeBaby One More Time" frequently differs from, "ah, those bright schooldays", and quite deliberately so.
 
 
Shortfatdyke
12:39 / 09.09.02
This is probably incredibly simplistic, but does the fact that schoolgirls can be over 16 - the age of consent - make it acceptable to have the schoolie uniform fetish and 'get away with' (for want of a better term) paedophilic tendencies?
 
 
.
12:47 / 09.09.02
Haus- When has nostalgia had to relate one's personal experience? Nostalgia is a fiction, is it not? Nostalgia is a collective, fictionalised and romanticised view of the past, no?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:51 / 09.09.02
Yah. Defending your position works better if you actually address any of the criticisms of it. What is romanticised about microskirts? What non-sexual romantic perception of schoolgirlhood does that most successfully encapsulate?
 
 
.
12:53 / 09.09.02
But yes, Haus I do agree that you have a point- did these people who go to School Disco actually go to school or what? If they did, how is it that they are able to block their individual memories of it being a frustrating and brutal experience (as it inevitably was) and replace them with this fluffy "sexy school-girl" image. Are they all older than me? (I am but 23 and memories of school are still clear to me).
 
 
illmatic
12:55 / 09.09.02
I respectfully agree and disagree iivix - I think what you said is totally true but there's a very sexual element there, at least from a male point of view. (I've yet to meet the peculiar female fetishist who finds me in shorts sexy.). The sexual bit is in "the male gaze" ie. watching a lot of women display a lot of skin. To contine the hugely speculative theme, I'd say the sexual kinda charge that arises (arouses?) from women in school uniforms is, I think, the product of a suggested innocence combined with sexual display. Because we're all brought up with taboos around sex, any breaking of taboos combined with the sexual act gives it an extra charge. I know a lot of guys who get off on sex when it's somehow "dirtier", breaking taboos. BTW, this is what I think is behind the obsession with anal sex in porn. The dirier, the better. With the whole schoolgirl thing, the "doing-something-I-shouldn't-be-doing" aspect (ie. letching at underage girls) is what adds the charge, and at School Disco, people, men at least, can play-act this.
 
 
.
12:59 / 09.09.02
Ah Haus and Illmatic, you mis-quote me. I never said that it was non-sexualised. Rather I am suggesting that it is primarily a nostalgia thing, with the sexual under-currents an additional factor, a factor that is present when any group like that get together.

As for innocence? Why can't a reversion to child-like expression be a desire to return to innocent innocence, and not a dirty sexual "innocence"?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:02 / 09.09.02
In principle, nothing. In a nightclub full of heaving, pissed, lechy blokes, very unlikely indeed. "Undercurrents" is probably not the word.

(One might argue that "innocence" is a great steaming social construct anyway - see Lewis Carroll's "innocent" underage female nudes).
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:16 / 09.09.02
Could it be that this arises as do other fetishes, for very personal reasons that sexualise particular behaviours and dress codes? As such, it might not have anything to do with paedophilia. Certainly school, and adolescence in general, are bound to be filled with experiences that one could turn into a fetish. This might explain the popularity of school uniforms. The micro skirts may simply provide extra titillation - divorced from reality in the way that many sexual fantasies are.

This probably makes more sense if you think about the fetishisation of teachers, nurses and policewomen and note the mismatch between reality and fantasy.

Then again, perhaps the fixation on school uniforms does derive from a worship of youth and a paedophilic obssession with young girls. I'm unsure whether it is even possible to separate these two strands. And though I am slightly disturbed with the mainstream sexualisation of youth, the school uniform fetish isn't something that particularly concerns me. Its not my thing, but who am I to judge others for what turns them on? It may underlie some unpleasant attitudes or it may not. I tend to take the line that as long as everyone consents and is of a legal age, then it is best to just let people do what they want.
 
 
some guy
14:01 / 09.09.02
In a nightclub full of heaving, pissed, lechy blokes, very unlikely indeed.

Therapy, Haus, therapy.

I think the key element here is school uniform. Lurid picked up on this with his mention of nurses and police. There may be a dramatic phenomenon happening here, with uniforms becoming costumes becoming masks, placing both participants in a sort of sexual theatre to play out roles in a mutually acceptable fantasy sphere that they would not otherwise pursue in what we'll call "real life." I'm sure we've all experienced contextual sexual freedom.

There is also another aspect to consider, which plays favorably to the so-called fetishists and less so to actual academic institutions: Perhaps school uniforms are just inherently sexy? Not because they are school uniforms, but because blouses and skirts (or shirts and slacks) just make people look good? Perhaps we ought to wonder why schools insist on dressing our children in sexualized clothing?

I also think we should examine School Disco a little closer. The usual "men are dirty and bad" tone is creeping out again, and there's an equal area to be discussed - why are these women happily donning their plaid skirts and white blouses and heading out for a fantasy school disco night? Couldn't be because they're on the prowl and have their own fantasies, could it? Nah...

The paedophila thing is a bit of a straw man, too. How many genuine school boys got worked up by the first Britney Spears video? What's the demographic break-down of those who bought the record?
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:13 / 09.09.02
I dunno Laurence. You can't really ignore the sexualisation of youth, nor can you be unaware of the focus of desire on women. Some would argue that this becomes exploitative when channeled through existing power structures. I'm not sure that I would entirely agree with that sort of analysis, but I don't think it can be dismissed out of hand either. Also, I think it is going to be a bit of a stretch to argue that school uniforms are inherently and objectively "sexy".
 
 
Sax
14:14 / 09.09.02
The paedophila thing is a bit of a straw man, too. How many genuine school boys got worked up by the first Britney Spears video? What's the demographic break-down of those who bought the record?

Does that tell us anything? Do you have to have bought the record or can you just be a 35-year-old man furtively spitting his filth into a man-sized tissue while watching MTV with the sound turned down?

This probably makes more sense if you think about the fetishisation of teachers, nurses and policewomen and note the mismatch between reality and fantasy.

Which, of course, is a whole different issue again. The main difference being that while it might be distasteful to attach sexual connotations to a profession such as a nurse or a policewoman, at least they're not children.

Perhaps school uniforms are just inherently sexy? Not because they are school uniforms, but because blouses and skirts (or shirts and slacks) just make people look good? Perhaps we ought to wonder why schools insist on dressing our children in sexualized clothing?

But what are we supposed to dress them in, if not normal clothes such as blouses, skirts, trousers, shirts... As someone (Haus?) pointed out, if you think back to school, uniforms certainly weren't inherently sexy, at least not at my school. They have been sexualised - they aren't inherently sexy, surely?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:17 / 09.09.02
I suspect Sax's point is probably better served if Britney's biggest fans based on her first video were middle-aged men.

(On, and in the interests of parity - I would quite happily see both genders of celebrants at the average School Disco night at Po-Na-Na napalmed, but that's not really because I find their modes of dress intolerably sexy or intolerably offensive; and if you're thinking in terms of plaid skirts, I fear you have the wrong head on to understand this)

Liking the idea that school uniforms are porny because people look good in them, though; although I would submit that school uniforms tend to be badly cut, cheaply made and hang badly. If people were going along to School Disco wearing well-made grey suits or skirt/shirt combos, I think there would be a stronger case for this thesis. As it is, School Disco (check the galleries at www.schooldisco.com) appears primarily to be partaken of as a kind of burlesque; certainly, this is the source of the most successful confections (even curmudgeonly old me raised a smile at the netball team).

The other complication there might be the use of "schoolgirl" cues, which recur in these sorts of self-presentation and also in soft porn (thinking of the bottom end of the tabloid market here - the Sun and Sport, for example) - pigtails, kneesocks, painted-on freckles - that also occur, for example, on the cover of the School Disco album.

So, I think your suggestion, though ingenious, operates on too few levels and fails to take into account the sheer level of intertext going on...
 
 
some guy
14:32 / 09.09.02
You can't really ignore the sexualisation of youth, nor can you be unaware of the focus of desire on women.

I'm not ignoring either. But we're not talking about youth, are we? The people who go to School Disco and similar gigs aren't in school anymore. A 28-year-old woman in a school uniform can be alluring in her own right, without us projecting a paedophilic intent on the guy who has just bought her a drink.

And I refuse to accept that the women dressing in school uniforms heading out for a night on the town don't know what they're doing. Surely in 2002 we can finally come to grips with the fact that modern women are as sexually voracious and assertive as men? Or am I biased in my thinking by living in a big city?

Do you have to have bought the record or can you just be a 35-year-old man furtively spitting his filth into a man-sized tissue while watching MTV with the sound turned down?

Do you have any direct evidence that a 35-year-old man wanked to the video with the sound turned down, or do you say this merely because it seems like the sort of thing that you can imagine happening? Because, as with all discussions of sexuality, it appears that many of us are arguing based on our personal assumptions, whether or not they jive with reality. Some of us are pre-disposed to find men "heaving, pissed [and] lechy" while women are virginal victims, but that doesn't seem to be what's happening here.

The main difference being that while it might be distasteful to attach sexual connotations to a profession such as a nurse or a policewoman, at least they're not children.

"Distasteful" of course being a bias of the observer, with about 5.5 billion different definitions. I don't see how school uniforms among consenting adults is any "worse" than, say, B&D, infantilism or the much more overt power discrepancy of police/military fetishism.

As someone (Haus?) pointed out, if you think back to school, uniforms certainly weren't inherently sexy, at least not at my school. They have been sexualised - they aren't inherently sexy, surely?

Do we sexualize things are aren't already a little sexy? It all gets back to the idea of role-playing, though. School Disco is a fantasy experience. I know a lot of grown men who loved seeing Liz Hurley in a school uniform in Bedazzled. I don't know any who is interested in having sex with an actual school girl.
 
 
Sax
14:33 / 09.09.02
Which suggestion are you referring to, Haus?
 
 
Sax
14:39 / 09.09.02
This is probably incredibly simplistic, but does the fact that schoolgirls can be over 16 - the age of consent - make it acceptable to have the schoolie uniform fetish and 'get away with' (for want of a better term) paedophilic tendencies?

A good point from sfd that hasn't been taken up so far. How would any gentlemen here react if they were having pleasant conversation in a bar with a fascinating young lady, and they ended up in bed? Would there be horror at having made the beast of two backs with a 16-year-old, or would there be a shrug and, "it's legal, isn't it?"

Laurence: No, I admit I have never personally witnessed a 35-year-old man masturbating to Britney Spears' first pop video. However, if it hasn't happened more than once in this country, I'll quite happily attend the next Barbemeet dressed as Winker Watson.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:40 / 09.09.02
Which suggestion are you referring to, Haus?

Oh, that perhaps school uniforms are just inherently sexy? Not because they are school uniforms, but because blouses and skirts (or shirts and slacks) just make people look good? Perhaps we ought to wonder why schools insist on dressing our children in sexualized clothing? You and I were responding to the same post.
 
 
some guy
14:52 / 09.09.02
How would any gentlemen here react if they were having pleasant conversation in a bar with a fascinating young lady, and they ended up in bed? Would there be horror at having made the beast of two backs with a 16-year-old, or would there be a shrug and, "it's legal, isn't it?"

Obviously it depends on the gentleman. I tend to frown on big age gaps in relationships because of the inevitable power differential, and wonder what a grown man could possibly see in a younger woman except sex.

No, I admit I have never personally witnessed a 35-year-old man masturbating to Britney Spears' first pop video. However, if it hasn't happened more than once in this country, I'll quite happily dress attend the next Barbemeet dressed as Winker Watson.

Exactly my point. We assume these things happen because they fit our preconceived notions. If lecherous old men didn't wank to Britney Spears videos, we'd have to rethink too many things. Far easier to imagine they do and just get on with it. The mysterious lecherous old man. I bet he's part of the mysterious moral majority as well, the hypocrite.

Does anyone actually wank to broadcast television? Or is everyone online looking at fake "Britney does Christina!" pictures?
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:57 / 09.09.02
Much as we may object to men spitting their filth - personally, I think the sooner we stop this sort of thing, the better - it is not entirely clear that the connection between fantasy and reality is as clear cut as can at first seem.

Sax, my first post in the thread was an attempt to address this gap and in part sfd's comment. Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I was trying to suggest that the fetishisation of school uniforms may not reflect a desire to fuck minors. Of course, one can still object to people getting thrills by dressing up, and watching other adults dress up as if they were school kids. But equating paedophilia and a liking for school uniforms is reminiscent of the association of homosexuality and paedophilia. Perhaps the former two are conceptually closer, but I still think there are interesting parallels to be made.

But I really liked, I would quite happily see both genders of celebrants at the average School Disco night at Po-Na-Na napalmed - haus
a disinterested desire for homicide, completely free from gender bias? hehehe.
 
 
Sax
15:05 / 09.09.02
Weeell, I don't think I actually implied a definite link between "sexy schoolgirl" dressing and paedophilia, Lurid, I just made the initial suggestion that it might seem a bit odd that this is perfectly acceptable in a nation that is quite often completely hysterical over the very concept of paedophilia.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:27 / 09.09.02
Sax: True, but as others have pointed out, the hysteria is rather two edged in that thinking sexually about young girls is almost encouraged. As long as it isn't filthy pervs, but newspaper buying "ordinary" people, then it is ok. If anything, I am relieved that the tabloid mentality doesn't extend further.

Laurence: Arguing that men don't wank over Britney Spears videos contradicts everything I know about male sexuality. I don't know for sure, but I think you need to argue more closely if you want to reasonably introduce doubt.
 
 
some guy
15:29 / 09.09.02
it is not entirely clear that the connection between fantasy and reality is as clear cut as can at first seem

Would you apply this to, say, the lesbian B&D scene? Are we to believe we're in danger from some moral confusion from mis-identifying fantasy and reality there? I suspect not. By the same token, it seems ridiculous to assert that the Time Out excursion night at School Disco is likely to foreshadow a bout of underage girlfriends hanging out at the offices. If we're not asserting that, then what is the problem? What exactly are we criticizing here, and why?
 
 
some guy
15:34 / 09.09.02
Arguing that men don't wank over Britney Spears videos contradicts everything I know about male sexuality. I don't know for sure, but I think you need to argue more closely if you want to reasonably introduce doubt.

Again, do you specifically know of any men who have wanked to Britney videos, or are you just assuming they do because that vision more closely matches your worldview?

I ask because A) it seems some of our assumptions need questioning and B) most men I know wank to porn, not broadcast television. Obviously, your mileage may vary.
 
 
.
15:45 / 09.09.02
I think that we can all concede that there is a definite difference between a 15 year old girl in school uniform, and a 29 year old woman. Could it not be the case that men find women acting as school kids alluring, without actually finding school-age girls attractive? That the allure is in having a adult acting childlike, and not in having a child acting childlike? IE. It's a fantasy scenario and nothing more.

Contentiously- perhaps paedophilia is about children performing adult acts, and School Disco about adults performing childish acts... Wouldn't that make School Disco the anti-thesis of paedophilia?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:54 / 09.09.02
I think we might sort of drop back into a modified position on Bio K9's thesis.

Essentially, the "fetish" is identified by Freud as something that is fixated upon as a substitute or representative for sex, and thus is inextricably linked to the sexual act. Therefore, somebody with an according-to-Hoyle school uniform fetish would be incapable of becoming sexually arouseds without a school uniform being involved.

Many fetishes, the theory goes, originate in childhood (f'r example, this is why shoe fetishes are so common - because you spend a lot of time as a wee one looking at people's shoes). Now, I think there are a lot of very serious holes in this construction of the fetish, but could we apply a modified version to the concept of the school uniform of signifier of sexiness.

Put simply, certainly if one went to a certain sort of school (ie one with uniform) the girls around one as one became sexually aware would be wearing school uniforms, and thus the school uniform might become metaphorically tangled up in the concept of the sexually attractive feamle. And remember, kids, fancying a 14-year old girl is not icky *as long as you are 14 as well*.

So, the use fo school uniform as sexual signifier is not because it makes you look sexy on a purely aesthetic level, but because it is a reminder of the girls (or, theoretically, boys, although the pictures I have seen so far have such ugboys that it is hard to judge) to whom one was first attracted, and thus a reminder of the power and novely of those first sexual feelings.

And if that's the case, perhaps the burlesque accoutrements - the stockings, or the pigtails, or the painted-on freckles, the utterly over-the-top signifiers of hebescence - are there to create a kind fo cognitive firebreak, to establish a clear separation through sheer incongruity between woman in school uniform and "girl" in school uniform.

Not sure whether this would make it more or less icky, byt it's a thought....

Speaking of icky, perhaps these two passages from a British weblog might explain to our friends in the former colonies the particular mindset he is portraying:

These two girls going missing is really beginning to vex me and I'm not entirely sure why. For some reason, this news story seems to grabbed me where similar ones haven't. That's not to say I didn't care or feel sorry for the parents of Sarah Payne, Amanda Dowler and so on. Holly and Jess going missing is having an affect on me that I would never have predicted.

As each minute passes, the chances of them being found alive and/or unharmed goes down. Harsh but sadly true. I'm not even going to try and describe how their parents must be feeling right now because my words could not even begin to do their feelings justice. Even worse than that, if Holly and Jess are still alive how scared must they be? Makes me shiver just thinking about it.

All this makes you sit back and think. Whilst there are some amazing moments in life there are equally some demonic ones. On balance I'd say the world as a whole is a good place to me ... but only just. Fingers crossed these two girls come back safe and sound.


Followed by:

Booked my one-way ticket to purgatory today. Driving to work, I had to stop to let a gaggle of school kids cross the road. One of them caught my eye, mainly because her skirt was stupidly short, she had blonde hair and was very good looking. She also had a badge on her school blazer ...

'I am 15 today'

It wouldn't have been so bad if she wasn't also opening envelopes that contained cards inside, meaning it was obviously her birthday. My bags are already packed for my long stay in hell.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:54 / 09.09.02
laurence: Two points. One, I think you are misreading me. I am arguing that there is a separation between fantasy and reality. (I think that quote was mine.)

Two: You are arguing that a lack of anecdotal or formal corroboration of a position is enough to seriously undermine any claim; to the point that one should make no assertions which aren't supported by direct statistical evidence. If one were to consistently apply that principle, then few discussions would ever get off the ground.
 
 
some guy
16:49 / 09.09.02
the school uniform might become metaphorically tangled up in the concept of the sexually attractive feamle.

I could buy this, but what about those of us who didn't go to school requiring uniforms and still like the look? What does this say about women who enjoy dressing that way and going to School Disco? What about the masses who enjoy a woman in a school uniform but don't require it to function sexually? And should we broaden your theory to explain why some women are turned on by a nice pair of pants?

And if that's the case, perhaps the burlesque accoutrements - the stockings, or the pigtails, or the painted-on freckles, the utterly over-the-top signifiers of hebescence - are there to create a kind fo cognitive firebreak, to establish a clear separation through sheer incongruity between woman in school uniform and "girl" in school uniform.

I think this probably plays a part, yeah. But the "burlesque accoutrements" also function as props in a way, heightening the theatricality of the experience and thus the fantasy role-playing as well.

I think you are misreading me. I am arguing that there is a separation between fantasy and reality.

No, I know what you're saying, and I agree with much of it. But I do think the separation between fantasy and reality is fairly clear for healthy adults. It's a bit arrogant to assume otherwise (because obviously we are superior enough to know the difference, and analyze those stupid masses). The lesbian B&D scene is a good example, because it's a "protected" fetish. Few would dare argue that those involved in the lesbian B&D subculture don't have a clear cut differentiation between fantasy and reality. But when it comes to those wacky heterosexual males, it's open season. I would argue that no, most men who enjoy women in school uniforms have no interest in actually sleeping with a school girl. So again, what's the problem, exactly?

You are arguing that a lack of anecdotal or formal corroboration of a position is enough to seriously undermine any claim; to the point that one should make no assertions which aren't supported by direct statistical evidence. If one were to consistently apply that principle, then few discussions would ever get off the ground.

True enough. But I explicitly stated that the reason I'm required formal corroboration is to demonstrate a point: We are sculpting "facts" to conform to our predetermined world view in this thread, a worldview in which dirty old men wank to Britney videos, women are coerced into buying school uniform clobber and attendees of School Disco are three days removed from their first kidnapping attempt. It's intellectually lazy to presuppose these dirty old men: "I'm sure they must exist somewhere, so let's just take it as a given. After all, men are all horny old dogs who'd even wank to Olson twins videos!" In terms of supporting an argument, these presumed anecdotes are unhelpful.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:52 / 09.09.02
Laurence: It may be that you aren't addressing me, but you seem to be registering dissent (with me) and then repeating my assertions. As such, I'm having a hard time knowing what point you are making.

But one thing we do disagree on is the 'undermining of received wisdom'. I've already said that the standards that you seem to require from others are unrealistic. You are saying that assertions are not valid unless supported by a statistically significant study. Given that this is the only basis you give for objecting to certain facts, I put it to you that it is rather weak.

If you positively want to say that men don't wank to Britney, then go ahead. But surely a skeptical stance that refuses to accept anything but the most rigorously proven is counter-productive to debate?

Haus: Thats a good description of a possible source for the fetish, though I am not using the word in its technical sense. I mean, we arent saying that the majority of people going to these events only get off when school uniforms are involved.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:59 / 09.09.02
I think that, once you get past the customary "poitical correctness gone mad" bit, Laurence does pose two very good questions - are we generally of the position that fancying women above the age of consent dressed as schoolgirls is essentially icky, and if so is this because we are able to get sneery at the peccadilloes of heterosexual men in a way we would not be comfortable with with less "mainstream" predilections, and if so again, why?
 
  

Page: (1)2

 
  
Add Your Reply