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Eating Sushi Off Of Naked Female Models

 
  

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The Natural Way
08:08 / 06.09.02
Yeah, that's right, Sprat: everyone at these events are really, really getting off on the individual's "thinking nakedness". It's all good, consensual fantasy and women and men are totally autonomous beasts who are fully conscious of all the actions/transactions they engage in and all their corresponding implications/effects...there's no cause for concern. At all. Ever.

Bitchie: suggesting that something shitty might be going on here is not the same as treating women like delicate china.
 
 
cusm
13:11 / 06.09.02
Possibly the more insidious detail here is a demonstration of just what money can buy. The women in question aren't giving themselves for the experience of it, they're doing it because they've been bought. They had a price at which they were willing to sell themselves this way. It tells me that we all have a price, that personal will and integrety can be overcome by the power and lure of money. What would your price be to allow someone to actually eat a part of your body, perhaps? People do sell body parts like kidneys already. What if you could add additional personal degredation at a higher cost? Think of something awful that you would never do. Now think of how much money you would be willing to do it for. Its amazing how we begin to justify ourselves.

Most of us whore ourselves already for our jobs. We're used to doing what we don't like in exchange for money. We can be bought. Nothing is sacred. We are slaves to capital.
 
 
cusm
13:13 / 06.09.02
And yes, Lydia, I hate you most deliciously.
 
 
gridley
13:25 / 06.09.02
Think of something awful that you would never do. Now think of how much money you would be willing to do it for. Its amazing how we begin to justify ourselves.

::Gridley drops out of conversation to figure out how much money it would take to make him vote republican....::
 
 
bitchiekittie
13:58 / 06.09.02
suggesting that something shitty might be going on here is not the same as treating women like delicate china

true, but whos to say its shitty? the question asked is "is it ok?". I dont think thats a question that extends beyond the participants themselves. if she says yes, is mentally and physically capable of understanding what that dictates, then Im not sure how you and I can say its wrong.

Im disturbed by the language in this thread - just because you or I find may find something distasteful or degrading about this activity, doesnt give us the right or reason to expect that our opinions mean anything. again, if she feels comfortable with treating her body as a commodity (no matter her reasoning - sexual, monetary, etc), who are we to say that she is wrong?

I admit Id feel uncomfortable attending a function which featured this activity, and I wouldnt take part. and I personally would never consider doing anything remotely similar. however, my personal feelings about what I would be willing to do with my body has zilch to do with what is right for another woman
 
 
Lionheart
14:40 / 06.09.02
I'm not gonna argue whether it's degrading or not. I'm just gonna ask one question.

This goes out to Flux and to all you other people who find this degrading and whatnot...

What do you propose we do about it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:34 / 06.09.02
Well, that's certainly one question.

What I find interesting about this thread at the moment is how spectacularly badly it is being argued. As far as I can tell the most amusing statements presented as fact so far are:

1) That women have no natural body hair, which is why men cannot be used as serving receptacles.

2) That, obviously, women's naked bodies are universally more aesthetically pleasing on an objective level, which is also why men cannot be used as serving receptacles.

3) That the provision of a female table as a part of a financial transaction can be considered essentially indistinguishable from the same process between friends (and bravo to Nick for suggesting there might be a difference, luminous blue vomit notwithstanding), except that if you are being paid for it is will be even more empowering (incidentally, this is why the sexual experiences of prostitutes and other sex workers are not only more sexually satisfying than that between other people, but also more emotionally fulfilling. Got that? Good).

4) Leading on from that, that to disagree with the ethics or economics of a particular piece of what may or may not be sex work necessarily entails the opinion that "all sex workers are stupid".

Quality.

Might I suggest we try a different direction? A brief look at the last porn thread, here might be interesting. I am off to start a new thread on sex work in a moment, but in the meantime - one of the objections raised to the mainstream porn market was that it was men peddling images of women to men - that is, men controlled the means of production, and the lion's share of the profits, and women were, much like Rico is Six Feet Under, not generally partners but rather product.

Now, in the "where do you get your porn" thread, here, Suicide Girls is mentioned as a utopian practitioner of pornography. It is run (or co-run) by a woman, the models maintain total editorial control over how they are presented and what pictures are put up, and a sense of community is fostered between consumers and providers.

Now, I suspect this last is a very complex thing, and I am not sure how one might foster it in this situation, short of having the table join the consumers for a drink and chat earlier in the evening before dinner, but how about the rest? Where do objections to this idea actually lie?

Or, to put it another way, imagine the same exact service being offered, but run by the women who act as tables as a co-operative, with full proft sharing, or a chambers model, or something similar. Is that better?

How about a system in which the women are still employees, but the executives who provide their services are women. How would that matter?

Assuming that there is demand for it (and who knows? As I believe I mentioned earlier on, nobody seems to have tested the market), would those who object be happier if male and female furniture was provided?

Essentially, what is the locus of your objection?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:37 / 06.09.02
P.S. Welcome back, bitchiekittie. I trust your retreat was beneficial.
 
 
Bill Posters
15:43 / 06.09.02
UK tv (Eurotrash) featured a guy being ate off last night in a feature on some kinky Dutch photographer whose name I didn't catch. Just thought I'd mention it. Oh and yes, it looked degrading to me. But on the other hand, he was clearly enjoying it, as were the diners of both genders. And I don't have any idea whether he was in it for the money.
 
 
Bill Posters
15:44 / 06.09.02
Oh, and I think he had quite a bit of chest hair.
 
 
The Apple-Picker
16:12 / 06.09.02
Oh, and I think he had quite a bit of chest hair.
Hahaha. Nice one, Bill.

If women were the ones running the show, I might be less bothered by it, but I'd still be bothered. As I see it, this is still presenting, under artistic pretentions, a standard of beauty that is very narrow and typically patriarchal.
 
 
cusm
16:34 / 06.09.02
I think this really has more to do with the laws of supply and demand than perceptions of beauty. I'm sure if the restaurant saw sufficient demands for hairy men as dinner platters, they or another spot like them would consider expanding the enterprise.

It is conservative to use hairless women, as you can always count on het men buying into a chance to objectify a naked woman. Its big busines, afterall. Everything else, while valid, is still a minority of consumer demand.
 
 
Elijah, Freelance Rabbi
17:37 / 06.09.02
question--the primary argument against seems to be that women are being used as objects, not moving for hours and being a table, so, if the naked woman talked to you, and handed you her armpit-sushi, would that make it ok? In other words, would a nude waiters/waitresses be ok if they were being paid the 2.17 plus tips and being regular wait-people?
 
 
grant
18:05 / 06.09.02
Extending what Elijah just said for another line: what's the difference between being used as a table and working as a mime-waiter? Or a living sculpture in a shop window?
Is it just the nakedness?
 
 
Stone Mirror
18:29 / 06.09.02
This is an excellent point, grant.

For that matter, a life-drawing model, staying still for long periods and serving as anatomical contours, areas of light and shadow, etc., is arguably no less of an object than a woman serving as a piece of furniture, and naked to boot. Is there a moral objection to this line of work as well?

If not, it'd seem that it must have something to do with the fact that food is being eaten off of the women in question. This leads me to wonder whether the whole problem may be based in some people's gut reaction of "Oh, that's icky!" with a heavy dose of after-the-fact rationalization applied to it.

Let's get specific, though. Who, exactly, is the injured party here?
 
 
cusm
19:07 / 06.09.02
Is there actually an injured party? Or are people just squeemish about the idea of it? I mean, that's not hard, it is in an associatiave way a step away from cannibalism.
 
 
Jackie Susann
03:41 / 11.09.02
I think it's interesting that everyone who's objected to the idea this is degrading have avoided Flux's point about class - that what's degrading is rich men feeling they have a right to treat poorer people like objects. Meanwhile the argument against it being degrading is that to say it's degrading you have to assume the women involved are stupid, weak, vulnerable, etc. It's as ridiculous as saying that you shouldn't complain about workplaces violating occupational health and safety regulations, because that would imply their employees were stupid. It's also annoying that people who say it isn't degrading seem to base this on the assumption that the only people who could be degraded are women, and then project this assumption on to those they're arguing with. When it seem to me it's the yuppie fuckheads who are debasing themselves in this encounter.
 
 
Papess
16:27 / 11.09.02
I personally, do not see anything degrading about this AT ALL!

It is erotic and deliciously sexy. I would love to have someone eat off my body while I lay perfectly still for them or, to eat off the exquisite platter of the female body. The mere texture of sushi is arousing enough! To also have the vision to go with it...ahh, heavenly! What a sensual experience. I can only give these women my respect for allowing me to dine in such a manner.

~MT
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:46 / 11.09.02
They are not allowing you to dine, Ms. Tricks. They are not "allowing" anyone to dine, except insofar as their consent is being purchased. I can only suggest that you might wish to read the first post in the thread, which sketches out the situation under discussion.
 
 
Papess
17:21 / 11.09.02
Then let me rephrase for you Haus.

I can only give these women my respect for allowing anyone to dine in this manner.

A brave erotic adventure IMHO.

Haus, don't you think you were a tad harsh with me?

~MT
 
 
Papess
17:37 / 11.09.02
Maybe I should explain what I mean by "allow".

Simply that, but for the willingness of these models to do this work, others might never be able to enjoy such pleasures. I choose to look at this in the light that is empowering for the models. I certainly would not feel the same way if these women were enslaved but, these models have made a choice. How very kind of them to let others enjoy their bodies in such a way. It may even be enjoyable for them. I know it would be for me!

And Haus, I am terribly sorry if I was harsh with you in my last post. I was a little taken aback by your seemingly stern response.

~MT
 
 
The Apple-Picker
17:54 / 11.09.02
I think it's interesting that everyone who's objected to the idea this is degrading have avoided Flux's point about class.

The beat goes on, the beat goes on.
 
 
some guy
20:01 / 11.09.02
I think it's interesting that everyone who's objected to the idea this is degrading have avoided Flux's point about class

Well, to be fair we're all assuming that the patrons are upper class and the models are lower class. Shouldn't we find out before heading too far down this track?

that what's degrading is rich men feeling they have a right to treat poorer people like objects.

But aren't the interview subjects uncomfortable with the service initially? And I fail to see how we're any closer to taking it for granted that anybody is actually seeing anybody as an object in these transactions, rather than a collection of people who have agreed to a series of fantasy roles that none of them are likely to embrace outside of the temporary fantasy context.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:32 / 11.09.02
Well, you should note that this specific catering company is doing invite-only dinner parties and art openings, which suggests that most, if not all, of the people attending aren't really there for that specific experience, or might not even be aware of it til they arrive. It's not quite like the "fantasy roles" best-case-scenario that some of you are imagining. Based on the existing clientele and the pricing of the service, yes, this most certainly is an upper-middle class/rich/"enlightened class" sort of thing.
 
 
kagemaru
20:55 / 11.09.02


I'd leave the "enlightened" bit aside for the time being, if you don't mind. I've found precious little light shining in the minds of the rich (sure, a generalization, but bear with me).
And matters of class, this side of the Victorian Era, burn down more often than not to matters of money anyway.

Now, a question - anyone got the idea it might be just a way for some people to show off?

The whole thing might be filed under "money to burn".
Like in "boy, we're so rich we can even pay models to serve as dishes instead of using the normal disposable paper stuff".

In this sense, I wonder how much of the deal is the erotic/artistic relationship between the guy eating and the model serving as dish, and how much of it is a narcisistic (and artistically sterile) relationship or a power thing between the guy paying for the event and his guests.

Just an idea, of course.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:29 / 11.09.02
Kagemaru, I think, makes a very good point, perhaps being of the Devil's party; is this an erotic experience, or a commodifying one, where the joy lies in the knowledge that one is able to purchase such a situation, or in knowing that such a situation has been laid on for you, who would not miss the 400 marks, either oneself or through the agency of a gallery owner, who likewise feels that the impact of the experience is well worth the outlay of the 800 marks, on you, the customer who might at the end of the evening shell out rather more than 800 marks on a single painting, as might the other half dozen invited to the event?

Ms. Tricks, your harshness is by no means something to apologise for. However, I would humbly and with due reverence suggest that you and Jack Sprat have made essentially the same move, which is to suggest that such an encounter is of a precisely equal value with a similar encounter between two others in a private matter, unconnected with the material exchange between patron and servant. If your belief is that the two situations are precisely equivalent, then that is a position worth exposition, but which is done a disservice by simple proposition.
 
 
some guy
00:07 / 12.09.02
is this an erotic experience, or a commodifying one, where the joy lies in the knowledge that one is able to purchase such a situation

I think we're doing the conversation a disservice to limit our readings, though. Surely a lot of the contracts boil down to a party host seeing the service and just thinking, "Cool! That's different." Not necessarily the best defense, but then neither is it a sign of class warfare...
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:51 / 12.09.02
Look, I would love to have people eat off my naked body; it fits very nicely with my sexual preferences. This does not mean I would like to do it for a living. It does not mean I want to have to turn up at my workplace when I'm cranky, take my clothes off, depilate and have rich fuckheads eat off me.
 
 
the Fool
06:03 / 12.09.02
is this an erotic experience, or a commodifying one,

Perhaps it objectifies with repeation. It might be a sensual erotic experience to being with, but as time goes on it becomes less and less sensual for all involved. More sexual, more commodifying. The model seeing it as a job and feeling like dirty dishes at the end of a meal while the jaded dinners demand a new table because 'we've already eaten off this one and we don't like her boobs'.
 
 
No star here laces
10:53 / 12.09.02
MT does make a very good point in some ways though, haus, in that she's pointing out that the key to this scenario is actually what is going on in the head of the model. I don't doubt for a second that the set-up and exchange involved here is commodifying and degrading in nature. However that can be reversed in a second if the model does not see it as such. If she gets her own reward for the act independent of the monetary exchange because of the significance she places on doing it, surely it can no longer be degrading?

Much as in being ordered around, physically punished and verbally humiliated is indeed degrading, but if one gets sexual pleasure out of it the situation is somewhat more complicated.

Now I'm not suggesting that this is necessarily the case with these sushi models - most of the time it probably isn't, most of the time it will be what is judged to be an acceptable amount of humiliation for a commensurate reward. But it is entirely possible that for some models it is an empowering, erotic and deeply fulfilling experience...
 
 
Persephone
11:35 / 12.09.02
Ah... it's clear to me now that there are two questions here: one, "is it okay for yuppies to eat sushi off the bodies of naked young women" and two, "is it okay for naked young women to let yuppies eat sushi off their bodies." And the questions are separate, and I'm totally fine about whatever the naked young women want to do... but I definitely do think that the yuppies should abstain, not out of concern for the naked young women but out of concern for themselves. Because I generally think that you shouldn't cultivate the tendency in yourself to see/use other people as objects, which is probably square of me. And I think there's probably something wrong about dividing up the problem like this --yuppies, fuck off/naked young women, you go girl-- but I do divide it this way. But if I am going to operate from the stance that the girl on the table is complicated with complicated motives, then for consistency shouldn't I operate from the same stance that these consumers are complicated with complicated motives? Or maybe I just have a general derision for consumption...?
 
 
some guy
11:52 / 12.09.02
Look, I would love to have people eat off my naked body; it fits very nicely with my sexual preferences. This does not mean I would like to do it for a living.

Yes, but what you would do and what others would do are two different things. It's all boiling down to us projecting our individual moral values onto others, which is neither fair nor accurate. The ostensible concern here seems to be the alleged "objectification" of the women. Leaving aside for the moment the fact that to know whether they are being objectified you would have to telepathically read the minds of the diners, I submit that there's a moral hipocrasy at work here - that our cultural ickiness toward sex and nudity is adding an impenetrable complication. Certainly there doesn't seem to be the same outcry against other jobs that turn workers into objects - 411 operators (human phone books), traffic wardens (human stoplights), assembly line workers (human robots).

So what's really at work, I propose, is our revulsion at the notion of an erotic relationship outside of our own particular moral boundaries - the usual "what I like is erotic, what you like is filth. I wouldn't do it, so it must be wrong and degrading."

There is no universal standard of degrading behavior. It's down to the participants to decide whether an act degrades them as a human being. As far as has been admitted, none of us are participants in this behavior. None of us has talked to anyone who has engaged in this behavior. None of us, therefore, is equipped to make anything other than a knee-jerk reaction, and I include myself in that.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:59 / 12.09.02
....just as some prostitutes may love their work or some toilet-cleaners be really into toilet-cleaning. No doubt. And if you are a model who really enjoys having total strangers prod you with chopsticks, then you are that most fortunate of women, one whose hobby can also be their living.

I suspect this can be tied into other jobs involving women removing their clothes for a paying audience - stripping, most obviously, perhaps prostitution. And it presumably scores highly on that index because it pays pretty well per hour, is probably well-policed and is unlikely to end in violence.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:43 / 12.09.02
First, Laurence, I remember you doing this in the porn thread - advancing the "filth/erotica" thesis over and over again, as if it was the only thing worth saying about the whole question. Once again, it is arguably not.

I think you are probably right that people's attitudes to sexuality and nakedness may be informing their attitudes...BUT there are people in this discussion who have previously on Barbelith discussed their own sex lives in a fashion that would make a sushi spread a very pale little peccavi indeed. Given that anyone who has had even a teeny bit of sex has probably done something with food, we might assume that the idea in terms of its raw sexual strangeness is probably not all that disconcerting, and thus that there may just be something in the parallel discussions about gender roles, class structures and so forth.

Second, hypocrisy is a very serious allegation, and if you are going to use it I would ask you to learn how to spell it. Hypocrisy means the advancing of moral standards which one does not oneself fulfil. Hippocrasy, if such a word exist in English, would mean a victory in a contest of horses. Hippocracy would describe a society run by horses. Ipocrasy would be something along the lines of "the act of mixing together the little wooden bits the fall of which makes mousetraps work". Hipocrasy? Your guess is as good as mine.
 
 
gridley
12:44 / 12.09.02
There is no universal standard of degrading behavior. It's down to the participants to decide whether an act degrades them as a human being.

Good point, Mr. Llewelyn-Bowen. I wonder if what a particular individual considers "degrading behavior" depends on where that person's own insecurities happen to lie. In effect, "I think that's wrong because I fear it being done to me" or "I have no fear of that, so it must be morally fine."

(Apologies if this is obvious, but I'm just coming upon it as an idea.)
 
  

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