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Do we really need a new construction of the Male?

 
  

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We're The Great Old Ones Now
20:16 / 30.08.02
Do we really need a new construction of the Male?

What is it for?

Why, when we talk routinely about a multiplicity of genders, do we fall back on this tired old duality?

I don't feel the need for one. I'm content to struggle for a construction of what it means to be me. Rather have my own identity than piece one together from a sort of off-the-shelf kit of limited and societally imposed options.

Is a construction of masculinity which is not oppressive (either to women or men) even possible? Are Male traits not those traditionally associated with dominance and invasion?

So how about a Withering Away of the Male?
 
 
at the scarwash
21:20 / 30.08.02
Where is this New Male Construction Kit being sold? Is it something that a beginner can knock together with a phillip's head in twenty minutes, or will it take a seasoned cabinetmaker the best part of a week and hydraulic power tools?

I find the ideas of sexual duality useful in analyzing literatre, for sure. And also, I think that I can use some of the traditional constrsucts of masculinity to analyze and examine what it means for me to be male. I look at my father. Humphrey Bogart, Serge Gainsbourg, Wolverine, Nick Curry, Nick Charles, and see what it means for them to be male, and what it is that I share with them. What do I share with Quentin Crisp or Joe Orton? I definitely believe that there is a maleness that is not so much a factor of "...a sort of off-the-shelf kit of limited and societally imposed options." There is much of masculinity that transcends society, for instance, the traits of "...dominance and invasion" are commonly identified as "male" across history and geography. And what, may I ask, is wrong with that? I don't particularly excell at either of those pursuits, but they might as well be male as female traits, for convenience and analogs' sakes if nothing else.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
01:41 / 31.08.02
Any such construction by its very nature is oppressive and so it is very unlikely that the concept of masculinity will be rebuilt minus oppression. However it would be particularly difficult to live in a world without such constructions and I'm afraid that falls right back in to the discussion on labels.

Humans need a new construction of the male in order to categorize all the little things that people do. An interesting question would be to ask who will reconstruct the male? Certainly the drastic change in the status of women leaves open a huge gap for this to be done. With a new generation of fiction appearing I would like to know- who will redefine the image of man in literature and also how it will happen but I suppose that remains to be seen.

On rewriting a gender it would appear that all the little things that existed within the subject previously continue to be referred to. If masculinity was rewritten these things might very well disappear because the reference point would be done away with. The male would not be strong, the woman would not be weak, in practice this probably wouldn't work but that certainly would change the oppression even while it emerged as something different.

While you are striving to be yourself Nick surely you recognise that being male is actually a part of you, I should hope quite a significant part, while you piece your identity together all those little social impositions creep in and help you to construct yourself.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
07:52 / 31.08.02
While you are striving to be yourself Nick surely you recognise that being male is actually a part of you, I should hope quite a significant part, while you piece your identity together all those little social impositions creep in and help you to construct yourself.

I'm physically male, so yes, obviously. Anything else, however, is a creation, and we're discussing what that creation means and whether it's necessary to seek out a new formulation of it or whether we can simply allow it to assume a far more minor role than it has in constructions of our society thus far. If rather than saying 'I need to fulfil this role of Man to be content', we move towards 'these are qualities of an attractive and enfranchised person which I wish to possess', does that fill the space?
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:24 / 31.08.02
I think that Janina's point might be that while any notion of gender is constructed, it is unclear whether one can then adopt a vacuous gender identity. The fact that you are male will probably mean that you will adopt, or be inflenced by, some notion of what it means to be a man. If that is the case, then it is surely better to find a gender identity that is something you can feel comfortable with.

I think the notion of multiple genders is unhelpful in this context. These multiple genders are overlapping and interlocking. So one still has room, perhaps a need, for the old fashioned and crude distinctions of old.

But surely the simple answer to this question is to look at feminism. Pre feminism, the construction of the female was in crisis. Was the response to abandon the idea of being Female? Or to construct an ideal more suited to the ideals of a more liberated woman?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:32 / 31.08.02
one still has room, perhaps a need, for the old fashioned and crude distinctions of old.

Does one? It's all very well to assert it, but that's the question, not the answer.

Was the response to abandon the idea of being Female?

I'm not sure.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:19 / 31.08.02
Well Nick, I think that if you really feel that the construction of a male identity has no relevance for you, then I'm not sure I want to convince you otherwise. My instinct would be to say, "Good for you!".

But we are used to discussing the construction of gender stereotypes as an unavoidable influence on the individual. For instance, when thinking about images of femininity, the mainstream beauty image is often cited as a key element in the psychology behind anorexia. Hence, if we accept that argument, we are saying that a certain value structure can impact on the feelings and esteem of a woman. We don't usually think of this harmful value structure being a completely conscious act where female beauty is equated to "thinness".

I'm skimming the surface, I know, but we also have a range of behaviours associated with men. One of the most cited ones is men's supposed inability to cry. Lots of men will talk about this, and although it isn't a universal, it is sufficiently prevalent to warrant examination. One might suppose that it is "natural" for men not to cry. Something biological that inhibits this particular expression of emotion. Alternatively, one might suppose that men sit down, have a think and decide, on balance, to take on board steretypical male attributes. Lastly, one might say that for whatever historical, sociological reason, there is a male image presented to men. Moreover, this image has an influence on men on a level deeper than that of conscious choice.

Personally, although it is rather simplistic, I'd opt for a model based on the latter, although it is difficult to judge how much validity each of these explanations may have. The proper way to argue this is to make cultural comparisons to see how different societies have different ideas of masculinity and see how these effect men. Large scale differences would undermine the notion of a "natural" set of male characteristics, at least as an absolute. Someone should help me here, but I think the acceptance of transvestitism and transexuality in some societies might provide some evidence in this direction. There are probably lots more.

Rebutting the idea of conscious choice is harder, since in any case there must be a level of complicity in accepting a gender role. But I think there are quite a few psychological experiments that demonstrate our need to conform happens on a level that often overrides our more considered chioces. Again, anyone who actually knows about this would be welcome to set me straight. I would also note that if we accept this "conscious choice" model, then it does lead to a rather harsh, blame oriented outlook. Not that this really affects the veracity of it.

So, on balance, I feel that there are elements of gender construction that impinge on you, me and everybody, whether we like it or not. Now, I'm not denying free will. This isn't an absolute, moulding everyone into the perfect exemplar of their gender. But it is an influence. It may be that in a utopia, we could dispense with gender roles entirely. But while there is someone out there selling, I think that we can't help buying.

Where does that leave us? I think if accept the presence and effect of gender roles then, unless they are what we want, we should try to remould them into something better. Ignoring them won't make them go away.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:59 / 31.08.02
Lurid, this is exactly what I'm talking about. I never said that the construction of a male identity had no relevance to me, or that I was unaffected by current constructions of it - that would be frankly ludicrous. What I said was that I'm not sure we need to strive to construct a new male identity when the old one was oppressive. We can simply accept the absence and find other pegs to hang identities on. I don't disagree with much of what you say.

What I question is the need to retain or re-invent a male gender role, to find and appropriate characteristics which are specifically male or which define a concept of manliness which is not in opposition to notions of freedom and emancipation. I suggest instead that we allow what is admittedly a hand-me-down from an oppressive system to vanish, and be replaced, not by a new, improved, sanitised version, but by a patchwork of other identities which are not so directly tied to abuses and oppressions.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:35 / 31.08.02
Hmmm. I seem to be misunderstanding you a lot, Nick. Sorry about that.

OK, lets look at whether we can replace a broad notion of Male with a variety of small scale identities. I'm not really sure where to start, apart from reflecting on personal experience.

I am male. I also dabble with being a goth and being sexually submissive and masochistic. It is fairly clear to me that these more personal, narrower identities challenge some core elements of masculinity. So while I am not sure that these are the sorts of alternative identifications that you are talking about, they seem to have some of that function. This does raise a chicken and egg type question, however. I am uncomfortable with mainstream masculinity and my pet interests reflect this to some extent. But did my discomfort precede my other identities? Or vice versa?

So I pause to reflect. If a man is uncomfortable with his oppressive gender identity, then does concentrating on more specific aspects of himself really constitute a challenge to the overarching one? One can imagine cases where it does, but equally one can imagine where there is little conflict between the personal and the societal. Given that we seem to accept the influence of imagery, this lack of conflict is really a concession to the male monolith.

Perhaps more importantly, if I examine myself further, then I'd say that despite strong personal identifications I am still influenced by my alloted gender role. Perhaps all I am saying is that these things can't happen in isolation, and if everyone else knows what a man is then so do you. But I think there is something more here. I think that masculinity needs to be confronted on its own terms and at its own scale. The reason is that, whether we like it or not, we all apply labels and sterotypes. I can't overthrow an accepted sterotype by replacing it with a patchwork, since the patchwork by definition will only apply to certain individuals. So it may be obvious that someone is a Man, but their personal identitites may well be hidden and unrecognised by me. So I'll fall back on the tried and tested, however inadequate and however unconsciously.

On the other hand, I definitely agree that plurality would be key in redifining masculinity to my taste. I think that one of the striking features of traditional men is what I have always seen as a certain uniformity. So it probably sounds like I am making a pedantic distinction between a gender vacuum replaced by mulitple identities and a gender role that is varied in nature. Maybe. But I don't think you can ignore history. I believe that effective change has to come in the form of transformation, rather than revolution.

To put it another way. Gay men, bisexual men, transvestite men and in fact men of all flavours seem like Men. I've never seen the particular identity entirely displace the general. Which makes me think that the large scale notion of gender needs improving itself.
 
 
Nessus
19:21 / 31.08.02
Where I come from, "redneck" is the accepted generalization of the prevailing attitude held by the general population. While I'm not a believer in the validity of generalizations, I have to admit that the majority of people I've had personal experience with hold true to this stereotype. Being that I am also employed in a construction trade, I have occassion to witness the social dynamics of large groups of predominantly male "tradesmen". The members of these groups ranging from late teens to retired, but "still working because retirement is boring" men and few women.
In this environment, the terms "whores" and "bitches" are synonymous with "female" or "woman" in reference to wives, girlfriends, and women in general. (I've singled out this particular behavior for illustrative purposes even though there are many other examples.)
I hear this kind of thing from the older men all the time but, what I find truly disconcerting, is that the younger groups emulate this same behavior and seem to be integrating it into there own perception of being a man. A precious few do not participate in the racist, sexist, (and many of the other nasty "-ists") conversations.

From my perpective, it is obvious that most young, developing males are very seriously affected by the prescribed gender constructs that they are exposed to. They are affected to such a degree that I believe it is necessary to reconstruct the male into a more positive model, if for no other reason than to facilitate more positive changes in the the next generation.

I realize that this one small group is not indicative of a global or even regional situation but I think it is a large enough group to warrant concern.
 
 
gravitybitch
00:45 / 01.09.02
I'm not sure that "accepting an absence" would work. It sounds like another variant on "Just Say No" that's doomed to failure...

In general, people like to put themselves into categories/groups and biology provides an obvious marker for grouping; I think that tendencies and qualities will be associated with the markers no matter what. (I'm not claiming that categories are static, though - different qualities will drift into and out of favor as being associated with any grouping.)
Disconnecting the category of male from "identities which are not so directly tied to abuses and oppressions" and reworking the identity of "male" will be easier than doing without - must fill that vacuum somehow after you get rid of all the ugly behaviors.
 
 
gravitybitch
00:47 / 01.09.02
ooops... that last bit should read:

Disconnecting the category of male from identities which are "directly tied to abuses and oppressions" and reworking the identity of "male" will be easier than doing without - must fill that vacuum somehow after you get rid of all the ugly behaviors.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:46 / 01.09.02
Why?

People keep saying that as if it's self-evident, but it's not. I don't know that it would be easier, and I don't know that there's a vaccuum. As I said elsewhere, I'm not sure there's really any such thing in socio-political situations. There's just areas where no claim has overwhelming primacy, because several are staking out the same territory.
 
 
gravitybitch
16:26 / 01.09.02
Why??

Well, there is this category of Male. If it isn't the towering heroic stoic figure of paternal leadership or snips and snails and puppydog tails, what is it?

XY (vs XX) doesn't cut it as a definition; I know too many transgendered folk to be happy with a strictly biological determination. So if it's not what your body is, then it's what you do - gender as a performance. I can't back this up in any way, but I think that gender roles may be as old as human culture - that's a whole lot of history to try to do without.

There's also the deeply embedded idea of Self vs Other - gender makes a very convenient divider. We may not be able to do without gender divisions until we get a really alien Other to rub up against.

(Haven't seen a copy of The Left Hand of Darkness in years, but I can't help but think that it could add to the discussion...)
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
17:37 / 01.09.02
Well, there is this category of Male. If it isn't the towering heroic stoic figure of paternal leadership or snips and snails and puppydog tails, what is it?

Yeah, but as I said to Lurid, I'm not suggesting a radical disjunct from the past, or any kind of self-exile. What I'm saying is, the Man is that figure you described. Once you remove the oppressive aspect, and admit that women are perfectly capable of filling most of the roles traditionally ascribed to Him, there's not a whole lot left to play with. So why on Earth would you go looking for a new set of uniquely male attributes? Why perpetuate the notion of binary-gendered roles when they're mistaken, oppressive, and useless? Why seek to re-bind men - and, by extension, re-box women - in a division which is artificial and possibly harmful?

Yes, we have shapes of masculinity to look back to, and there will be moments when those shapes can be deployed - though there are actually equally strong female role models to work from, which are just as useful for men as for women. There's no need to divorce oneself from the past, but I don't see a need to reformulate and recreate the bisection of society either.

There's also the deeply embedded idea of Self vs Other - gender makes a very convenient divider.

Which is not any reason to endorse it. Perhaps, rather the reverse.
 
 
gravitybitch
03:15 / 02.09.02
OK. For the record, I think that oppressive roles are bad. I'm not advocating them in any way. I also think that there are some attributes which, while not uniquely male or female, tend to occur with greater frequency towards one end or the other of the gender spectrum. I don't think there are that many, and the only ones I'll defend at this point are physical things like strength, visual accuity, sensitivity to smell and taste... (I'm going to avoid the can of worms of cognitive qualities like the plague!)

Men and women are much more alike than different, and the huge differences we see are predominantly social. Any change in the definition of Male will have to occur at the social level, which is what you're advocating. So, on at least this much, I think we're agreed.

What I'm hearing from you is that you want to take a bunch of stuff out of the definition of Male - "We can simply accept the absence and find other pegs to hang identities on." You want the idea of Male to "wither away." I don't think that can work - gender identity is strong enough to make people risk painful and dangerous surgery, public ridicule, and family ostracism. Gender as an identity will not go away, and we will need definitions of gender.

My hope is that we can rework the social constructs of gender so as to be much more flexible and inclusive, make gender expression much more user-friendly.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
07:17 / 02.09.02
I don't think that can work - gender identity is strong enough to make people risk painful and dangerous surgery, public ridicule, and family ostracism.

That's because of the primacy we accord it, not from any particular a priori quality of gender that I can see. Aside from those whose desire to change gender is based on a pure physical desire to be in a body of another sex (and whilst I'm extremely wary of engaging seriously on this subject, first because my understanding of transgender folk and their motivations is limited to brief conversations with a tiny sample, and second because I'm aware this is an emotive and personal issue for some of the people who read the board, I'd be curious to know how much of even that is dependent on concepts of roles and the perception of physical attributes and their meaning - given that it's impossible to know what it's like in a body before you go there), would anyone choose to do these things if we did not put specific social, cognitive, or personal roles and capacities in gender boxes?

Gender is like a London Club - it's not about who you let in, it's about who you keep out. I'm not sure that your suggestion of a more inclusive version isn't, ultimately, the same as what I'm pondering.
 
 
gravitybitch
17:58 / 02.09.02
This is sort of like the teaser I saw for an article on longevity - "Are men dying sooner or women living longer?"

But, I do think there is a difference in our viewpoints - I want to broaden gender, smear the boundaries, while you want to diminish its importance.

"...would anyone choose to do these things if we did not put specific social, cognitive, or personal roles and capacities in gender boxes?"

From the conversations I've had with two mtf ex-lovers, I'd have to say yes. Both nearly died from the complications of surgery, neither has any regrets about the long and arduous process, and neither one seems to give much thought to social roles - both had surgery quite some time ago, have gotten well past fussing over how to present "female" in order to pass, and seem to just be who they are. (The caveat is that they each did a lot of thinking about gender and identity, and the identity that each presents is much more the product of conscious thought than it is for most folks.)

Ah. I just re-read your post, and you said, "Aside from [transgendered folk], would anybody choose..." I don't think you can dismiss transgendered folk when talking about gender! When reality doesn't conform to the set of rules you think are in operation, you can get closer to knowing what the real rules are, but only if you don't ignore the "discontinuity" between your model and reality.

Again, gender seems to be an integral part of identity; I don't think you can make it go away. As Lurid mentioned, there's been space in most cultures for folks to take on "the opposite" gender role. This is a strong acknowledgement of the importance of performed or perceived gender as opposed to the physical manifestation.

Technology has gotten to the point of allowing us to question the importance of the physical body vs the social role in constructing gender - we can (somewhat crudely) alter the body to match the gender identity as opposed to "only" changing roles (and I don't mean to imply that folks who don't undergo surgery are less committed to their gender identity!).

Gender theory isn't anywhere near complete, probably won't be for decades. Meanwhile, I'm all for messing with restrictive roles, busting up social expectations, making fun of the sterotypes...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
19:16 / 02.09.02
But, I do think there is a difference in our viewpoints - I want to broaden gender, smear the boundaries, while you want to diminish its importance.

No, I don't. I wondering whether we should simply allow its importance to diminsh as it becomes harder and harder to sustain. When there are no specific traits, arenas, skills, emotions, positions - which we reserve as 'not for women', and similarly none which are 'not for men', is there any longer a need for a notion of binary gender beyond a simple physical recognition of difference?

I don't think you can dismiss transgendered folk when talking about gender!

I wasn't proposing to. I'm was admitting that I don't know enough to comment, and that I'd prefer to avoid a confrontation with anyone feeling strongly on this issue when I don't know how to avoid offending people. However, it would be markedly bizarre to base the case for the retention of binary gender solely on the position of those whose position is arguably most vexed in relation to it.

When reality doesn't conform to the set of rules you think are in operation, you can get closer to knowing what the real rules are, but only if you don't ignore the "discontinuity" between your model and reality.

Reality, in this case, is a social creation, so your argument is somewhat circular.

Again, gender seems to be an integral part of identity; I don't think you can make it go away.

Again, I'm not trying to. I'm suggesting we don't bother to encourage it, don't hurry after it as it retreats. If there's a crisis of masculinity, if the idea of the Male is blurred and confused, why should we bother to try to nail it down? Will bad things happen?
 
 
gravitybitch
03:03 / 03.09.02
What I was trying to say, in bringing transgendered folk into the discussion, is that gender is a large part of everybody's identity, but that's not obvious unless there is a discordance between the gender and the body. Those born with a concordance between gender and body generally aren't aware of how gender shapes their identity. Yes, the water we swim in is wet, but how could we know that?

(Quick aside - a lot of modern biology research consists of knocking out a gene and seeing what changes in the system the gene controls. This is similar, although I'm not saying that people with gender dysphoria are ill; it's a chance to look at the links between gender and body and social roles by observing what happens when the links come together differently.)
Reality, in this case, is a social creation, so your argument is somewhat circular.

We need a better vocabulary for this. I think I may have (somewhat sloppily) used the term gender to cover the aspect of identity as in the first paragraph, and the social role/performance as well. Gender roles are the social creation, gender is not. There is nothing circular about my statement.

When reality doesn't conform to the set of rules you think are in operation, you can get closer to knowing what the real rules are, but only if you don't ignore the "discontinuity" between your model and reality.

Some folks are willing to undergo a lot of trauma to get gender and body to match, so I'm proposing that gender is important to identity in the general case, for everybody. Transgendered folk provide a direct refutation of your expectation that gender isn't/won't be that important...

Gender is not the problem. Gender roles are. I'm not denying there is a crisis in Masculinity that's been brought on by the chipping away of the standard roles. I don't know what will be left if we get rid of the oppressive stereotypes, don't know if there are inherently male/female traits, but I suspect that people will always find ways to play with and honor the differences between "male" and "female." The play will probably get much more subtle if gender definitions get broader, and gender stereotypes may become akin to the next S/M - something to explore that you may not want to admit to in polite company....
 
 
YNH
06:49 / 03.09.02
I think I'm having trouble following you, Nick. One of your great talents is to get folks thinking, but this time I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be thinking about. Is it so simple as denying their are traits associated with 'male' or 'female' or even any locus amid variable shifting definitions? Or are you suggesting the way forward following the discovery [sic] an oppressive social construction?

Either way, codifying the yet dominant 'male'-construct is a worthy project given its educational potentional; and so is tracking its evolution from here. Maybe constant (re)construction is the path toward an empty sign.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:01 / 03.09.02
Iszabelle - can you clarify the bit I think is circular for me - I'm still not quite clear? Sorry. No brainfood yet today.

Incidentally, you're sounding a lot like Tom in the last paragraph. We need to get our glorious leader in here.

YNH: you may be looking for more sophistication than I'm guilty of this time. I was following on from the 'Spitfires' thread, where I suggested that redefining the male role was something which had to be done in concert with women (here onwards).

I suddenly thought, "hang on...why would we bother? What do we lose from just leaving the role empty?" and this discussion comes from there. It was off the top of my head, so there may be less to it than I thought, but it seems to be generating opposition, so there must be something.
 
 
gravitybitch
14:57 / 03.09.02
Let's see if I can do this before coffee... (and this is a horribly messy topic - I don't think there's any way at present to completely disassociate gender from its performance as a gender role...)

First off, let me get my "prejudices" out of the way - I am a biologist by trade, so biology (and the methods of science) are very comfortable models for me. Second, I tend to think that gender identity across the population is a spectrum, and can be pretty fluid if an individual isn't near one of the ends, further muddying the waters if you're looking for uniquely male or female characteristics. Anyway:

When reality doesn't conform to the set of rules you think are in operation, you can get closer to knowing what the real rules are, but only if you don't ignore the "discontinuity" between your model and reality.

Basically, this is an ugly restatement of the scientific method - you have a hypothesis (the set of rules you think are in operation), how the real world behaves, and the discrepancies between the two are the opportunity to remake your model to more closely match the real world...

Now, what I understood your position to be: gender isn't (shouldn't be) that important to identity, and gender is only important because of the emphasis we put on it. If, by gender, you mean "only" the social roles, then we're not in much disagreement. But I'd interpreted gender to mean that portion of the identity that actually drives us to perform gender roles, that portion of the identity that demands that a transgendered person live a role that is in conflict with the body as it was born. And this is where I see reality conflicting with your model. Gender is hugely important to identity, and we see that when there is a mismatch between the identity and the body.

Again, I'm stealing from biology - we learn a lot more about a system when it breaks than when it functions the way it's "supposed to." Here, I'm working from the assumption that the process of "building" a person is more or less the same - we all follow the same overall progression from egg&sperm through embryo, birth, adolescence... and that "building" an identity also follows the same sort of progression. This is why I don't think that gender identity is only vastly important for some people...
So what I see is that the model of gender identity not being important doesn't agree with the reality of gender identity driving some folks to undergo surgery, family and societal disapproval, and other trauma; and I'm expanding the importance of gender identity to cover everybody with the understanding that it's hard to notice how much gender identity contributes to a sense of Self when there is a concordance between gender identity and body identity.
 
 
Tamayyurt
22:07 / 03.09.02
I love this thread and it has inspired me to write a paper on the new constructs of masculinity and the male.

I need fiction though. I need either a novel or a film where the traditional male roll has been displaced by powerful women. (non fiction will be appreciated as a reference but not the hub of the essay.)

Buffy comes to mind. I can write a brilliant paper on poor Xander(essentially useless), Spike (neutered), and Riley (gone), but the prof. said no TV shows. Strictly films or novels. So I turn to you... any great suggestions?
 
 
rakehell
02:16 / 04.09.02
I don't know if it is the sort of thing you're looking for, but two movies I would suggest are Thelma & Louise and Long Kiss Goodnight where women are placed in the traditionally male "action hero" roles. As a bonus I'm certain you could also find a wealth of material on line analysing the two movies.
 
 
Francine I
05:06 / 04.09.02
Perhaps La Femme Nikita or it's American revision, Point of No Return?

Also of note, skilled female fighters abound in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon -- although the ubercombatant role is still reserved for a man, some of the characters might be of use in making your point.

Of course, there's Jackie Brown.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:43 / 04.09.02
Shame you can't do Buffy, I wrote an essay on gender in the show, there is actually too much information to use. All of the men are less powerful than the women, Xander is clumsy and physically weaker than Buffy- there's a brilliant scene in season two I think, he tries to open a jar when Buff loses her powers and completely fails.
Nothing's as obvious about this reversal as Buffy.

Don't use Crouching Tiger unless you're prepared to use the role of women in Japanese martial arts film and that tends to get complex. You could try Tomb Raider (eugh) because it's an interesting example, as a phenomenon, of the sexual empowerment and the abuse of that in women.

Really your problem's going to be finding something that places women in a more powerful position than men rather than as equal.
 
 
Persephone
13:50 / 04.09.02
How about The Quick and the Dead? Sharon Stone in the lone gunslinger role.

It's a terrible movie, yes.

It's not as bad as Bad Girls.

I love Westerns.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
15:32 / 04.09.02
Iszabelle: I'd interpreted gender to mean that portion of the identity that actually drives us to perform gender roles, that portion of the identity that demands that a transgendered person live a role that is in conflict with the body as it was born.

I'm still not clear why this is a problem for me - unless you're going to maintain that there is a biological imperative to see the world in terms of binary gender. Even the drive to self-identity is partly cultural.

So what I see is that the model of gender identity not being important doesn't agree with the reality of gender identity driving some folks to undergo surgery, family and societal disapproval, and other trauma

Don't get me wrong, it's not that gender isn't important to individuals, or to society. That just doesn't conflict with it being constructed rather than inevitably bound into the human identity - for everything you say, I nod, but there's no reason yet to think of gender as other than contingent. The fact that it is so vital to the unhappiness of many with themselves is what leads me to question it. Are we addicted to gender?
 
 
gravitybitch
14:57 / 05.09.02
That just doesn't conflict with it being constructed rather than inevitably bound into the human identity - for everything you say, I nod, but there's no reason yet to think of gender as other than contingent.

Surely, you're not suggesting that people undergo all the difficulties and trauma associated with gender reassignment to conform to a social construct? Yes, I know that people have killed themselves in the name of the social construct known as "beauty" - anorexia and bulemia come to mind - but I'm not willing to lump gender dysphoria in with that sort of pathology. The transgendered folk I know (both casually and intimately) are much happier after reassignment - there's an endpoint and a resolution here.

Recap: we've had gender roles for at least as long as we've had recorded history, and in a fair number of societies there's been a means of accomodating those folks whose preferred gender role conflicted with their physical expression of gender. It's only within the last couple of decades that we've been able to (very crudely) alter the body's expression of gender, start teasing out how the social construct and the physical expression contribute to the aspect of identity we call gender.

I'm not claiming any biological imperative to see the world in terms of binary gender. There is the broad biological imperative of sperm and egg getting together often enough to perpetuate the species.... kind of makes a source for egg and sperm, i.e. "women" and "men" necessary. What sort of biological imperative were you talking about?
 
 
gravitybitch
15:06 / 05.09.02
quickie before I'm too late to work...

I don't think we're "addicted" to gender, even if you aren't using the clinically precise definition having to do with altered brain functions...

I've been agreeing all along that current gender roles are fucked up, unworkable in an enlightened society. Western culture has loaded "gender" with a lot fo baggage, basically pathologized it to some degree. But I think, given enough time, we can "fix" gender roles without throwing out the concept of gender...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
16:55 / 05.09.02
Iszabelle: Surely, you're not suggesting that people undergo all the difficulties and trauma associated with gender reassignment to conform to a social construct?

Curious as to what you mean by 'social construct' - that phrase seems to imply that it's rather a weak thing in your view. But social constructs, in the sense of systems of relations, notions of sanity, agreed definitions of space (houses, towns, nations), entities made from constituitive rules (church, state, family) and so on are the building blocks of our identities. So yes, absolutely: there's nothing more powerful. We deny biological drives all the time in order to conform to social constructs of good conduct and identity.

When I mentioned a biological imperative, I was trying to get a grip on where you thought 'gender' was so important - whence it derived this importance. I can see its effects, but I don't see that it, like Church or Nation State isn't an idea which may be eroded and replaced by (overlapping aspects of) other constructs.

When I ask if we're addicted to gender, I mean as a society, or even as theorists, rather than as individuals - although the dividing line is fine indeed.
 
 
gravitybitch
01:40 / 11.09.02
Had to take a break for a little while...

You are correct in stating that social values are very important (and for some people, worth dying for). Part of me being so dismissive was me being pissed off at how current gender roles are so confining and damaging to humans. But I was also trying to articulate how gender is something more than an abstract and idealized nebulous something... (still hard to put into words!)

Talk to folks who're raising small children. Temperment and defining characteristics are very evident even before the kids start walking. Some children display "gendered" behavior long before they're indoctrinated into social models of appropriate behavior, and some don't.

I just don't think we can de-emphasize gender to the extent that you seem to want to. I'll be happy if we can uncouple the ideas of male and female from the idea of exclusive polar opposites, and from roles of butch/femme and dominant/passive.

As far as the current society being "addicted" to gender... I still take issue with that word. Is "gender" used as an explanation for all sorts of things that aren't really gender-dependent? Yes. Is the current social power structure completely dependent on emphasizing gender differences to maintain that power structure? Of course. Is dependent the same as addicted? Not at all.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:19 / 11.09.02
I think we've run out of disagreements...
 
 
gravitybitch
14:01 / 11.09.02
S'ok -- friendly handshake? Group hug?
 
  

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