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What *is* genius?

 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
13:49 / 30.08.02
A knack? A quality? A lie?

Something which some possess and others do not, or merely the product of being in the right place, awake enough to spot the moment?

Some people seem to have a knack for being in the right place, though...

(Obviously, a companion thread to the question of whether the idea of genius holds us back...)
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
13:55 / 30.08.02
From the Columbia Encyclopedia:

genius
 
in Roman religion, guardian spirit of a man, a family, or a state. In some instances, a place, a city, or an institution had its genius. As the guardian spirit of an individual, the genius (corresponding to the Greek demon) was largely the force of one’s natural desires. The genius of the paterfamilias was honored in familial worship as a household god and was thought to perpetuate a family through many generations. Notable achievements or high intellectual powers of an individual were attributed to his genius, and ultimately a man of achievements was said to have genius or to be a genius.

Could this be why it's so tricky for us materialists to define?
 
 
shoddy23
12:31 / 16.09.02
Genius is a very overused word, especially in the news media. I read an article about alleged coke-fiend and recovering alcoholic Michael Barrymore in the Guardian newspaper that referred to his comic "genius". Does this elevate the presenter of Strike It Lucky to the same level of esteem in which true geniuses (genii?) like Albert Einstein and Glenn Jenkins are held? Or does it mean that 'genius' is just another label like 'luxury' or 'fascist' which has been so overused as to lose its meaning. And if you don't know who Glenn Jenkins is, that just goes to show that one person's genius is another person's s**thead.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:42 / 16.09.02
Well, of course there *is* a notionally objective classification of genius - somebody who scroes over 146 on a properly-conducted IQ test. Theoretically, one could achieve this classification by a staggering amount of random chance, though, by answering questions randomly.

So is "genius" something we use to imply that somebody is at the top of their particular field? And if so, does that mean that genius is competitive - becoming regarded as a genius necessarily displaces whoever previously held that spot?
 
 
tom-karika nukes it from orbit
12:47 / 16.09.02
My test for a genius is to pose a very difficult question to them and the same to an extremely clever person (but not a genius) .

When a very clever person comes up with the answer or an idea, the other clever person may be able to say 'I could have thought of that too. It may have taken me longer or been less elegant, but I could have got there'.

When a genius arrives at the solution, it is one which the standard clever person could never have arrived at, no matter how long they spent or hard they tried.

Of course, this wouldn't happen all the time for a genius, possibly only once in a lifetime, but it would work as long as the clever person admits that they could never have done it as well.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:21 / 16.09.02
Taking Haus statistic as gospel, this means that approximately 0.1-0.2% of the world'as population have a genius level IQ (it depends on the test).

Estimating the world population at around 6 billion, that means one should expect 6-12 million people alive today who would be considered genii (correct plural according to dictionary.com) from their IQ tests.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:28 / 16.09.02
Karika's test, although beset by practical difficulties, poses one possible approach - that genii (second declension, very nice) are people who *innovate*. Thus, without Einstein or somebody very like Einstein, the General Theory of Relativity could never have been discovered.

Of course, were they still alive, all the other physicists working at the same time and beforehand might complain that without there work Einstein would never have got anywhere, and he just happened to be one of a number of very intelligent and very able physicists who happened to get the three gold bars when he pulled down on the lever of te relativity slot machine. Therefore, that discovery is something that is genertaed slowly through collaboration, not delivered to an individual in a flash of lightning.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:47 / 16.09.02
The interesting thing about linking it with IQ tests and statistics is that, if we accept that measure as a broad indicator, then there are always bound to be genii knocking around.

For instance, if you look at the world's population of physicists then you'd probably expect more than 0.1-0.2% of them to have genius level IQs. So there will always be a few there waiting for the slot machine to be ready for a big payout. In other words, one might confidently expect that if it hadn't been Einstein then it most would have been someone else. The individual is likely to influence the tone of discovery, but not neccessarily the fact of it. Maybe.

You can turn this on its head and say that it is possible for the lone genius not to have the support of a community and hence be unable to make striking discoveries. I believe that there is a case to be made that Archimedes might have invented calculus were the conditions right. As it was, that had to wait near on 2000 years for Newton and Liebniz
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:28 / 16.09.02
You can't measure genius. I'll use Einstein as my example because he's generally accepted as one. As a physicist he was brilliant but I suppose many physicists are, unlike many he had an imagination and it spurred him in to making certain claims along with his theory. His work was dependent on other physicists and mathematicians. So here I am agreeing with Haus.

However this one man took his theory a step further than many others had and it probably would have taken a bit longer for anyone else to do it and that is why we classify Einstein a genius - he was quicker.

How an IQ test can measure a genius is beyond me... for this to be true the concept of what a genius is has to be somewhat limited. This is because these tests happen to provide questions that are really quite straight-forward, you must have a certain way of thinking and a certain amount of knowledge before you take the tests. If you don't know your times tables than you're screwed.

OK - I'm no good at IQ tests, I admit it - I have no head for numbers and score lower than I should. Language, fine, logic, fine. Anything with a number in it, oh dear. These tests are ridiculous I just think judge a genius after they do something brilliant, unexpected, create a new paradigm.
 
 
bacon
00:06 / 17.09.02
This is just my humble view:

When I think of a person possesing of "true" genius I imagine someone in a state of constant epiphany. The middle point is presented and the starting and end points are almost immediately perceived. And in some case are linked together to form an ever flowing, seamless, circular logic.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
04:07 / 17.09.02
Actually Albert Einstein did not build on stuff that already exist to a large degree. One of the things that make his case special is that his first breakthroughs were made without proper checks of the "liturature" to see if someone had done it first.

His first paper was a breakthrough
Special Relativity was a breakthrough
General Relativity was a breakthrough

Nash the guy who the movie A Beautiful Mind was about had one breakthrough.

These breakthroughs were completely new ways of looking at things. Maybe an original and useful percpective is genius?
 
 
Lurid Archive
06:05 / 17.09.02
Not sure that that is an entirely fair description of Einstein's work.
 
 
kagemaru
08:43 / 17.09.02
A machine needs A, B and C to get to D.
A standard human being can get to D given A and B.
A genius needs A, @ and 7 to get to D, E and H.
 
 
captain piss
10:12 / 17.09.02
When it comes to gauging intelligence, or ability in scientific/analytical fields, a lot of value seems to be placed on how fast people think, especially with employers in areas like IT - interviews at Microsoft are apparently peppered with on-the-spot problem solving questions. And IQ tests are a meaningful gauge of how fast you can solve analytical problems.

On the other hand, it’s often suggested, for instance, that Einstein and Darwin were comparatively slow thinkers – with great intuitive leaps being made over a more gradual timespan- the point Karika made earlier.

Shit- had something else to say here but it’s gone
 
 
Ethan Hawke
12:04 / 17.09.02
We've all done something genius, haven't we? In our lives, there has to have been at least one moment where we did something (wrote a brilliant piece of poetry, created a moving junk sculpture, blocked an unblockable shot) where immediately afterward we thought "woah, where did that come from?" Genius acts are strange, unprecedent, uncanny. Not to get too mystical, but I've felt it. A harmonic convergence, a lucky stroke, a clutch play. This is what I strive for when writing or painting - I want to look at something I did, read something I wrote, and not see myself in it.

Part of the mystery of Shakespeare (who I think we can agree is a genius) is that there seems to be so little Shakespeare in his plays. He contains multitudes. His characters live and breath by themselves. We don't see puppetmaster Will behind them. (or, I guess, we have a dearth of autobiographical info about him and thus project such ideas onto his work).

*Genius* is as Nick says, a knack, . A knack for picking out hidden patterns. And *a* genius is someone who has developed this knack into a habit.
 
 
bacon
21:53 / 17.09.02
I thought the works attributed to Shakespeare had actually been a collection of works from various authors.?
 
 
Jack Fear
22:08 / 17.09.02
I'm sure you did think that.

The fact that you won't find a reputable scholar anywhere who shares that view shouldn't dissuade you in the least.
 
 
bacon
23:03 / 17.09.02
Easy...

Saw it on THC. (The History Channel)
That's what the damn question mark was for.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
04:11 / 18.09.02
They may have been discussing Delia Bacon's thesis that "Shakespeare" was a convenient name for a number of writers (her cast list included Edmund Spenser, Walter Raleigh and the ever-popular Francis Bacon) to write under, the actual Will Shakespeare (who never actually signed his name "Shakespeare", conspiracy fans) being an actor rather than a writer.

More credible is the suggestion that the plays of Shakespeare were written by a single man, who happened not to be William Shakespeare

Possibly they were talking about plays that Shakespeare appeared to have co-written or been involved in the wrtiting of, but that were published under his name. Or, alternatively, plays not included in the first folio of 1623 (?) but subsequently attributed to him, such as Sir John Oldcastle or Edward III. "The Shakespearean Corpus", although not abso-*lutely* nailed down, does appear to be largely the work of a single writer. That writer being, as we all know, Edward de Vere, Seventeenth Oxford, with Christopher Marlowe (who faked his death) helping out with the tragic bits.

There's rather a fun mock trial between the claims of Stratford and Oxford here.

On a similar topic, how about Homer? Again, the issue is hotly debated, but comparatively few people would argue that the entirety of the Odyssey and the Iliad were written by a single hand from whole cloth. If we take the analytical view, we see "Homer" as the product of a number of different writers, and yet the Iliad is arguably the first work of true genius in the Western canon (unless you believe that it was written in the 2nd Century AD, of course). Is this a possible refutation of the very romantic idea of genius being a thing peculiar to an individual? Can genius inhere corporately in a group of us? Like, you know, Spenser, Raleigh and Bacon.
 
  
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