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Osama Video Probably Fake -evidence

 
  

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Lionheart
20:02 / 20.12.01
http://www.rense.com/general18/wrong.htm





[ 20-12-2001: Message edited by: Lionheart ]
 
 
CameronStewart
20:33 / 20.12.01



Both J-Lo. Looks like she has an enormous nose in the first pic.

Never underestimate what lighting can do.

[ 20-12-2001: Message edited by: CameronStewart ]
 
 
Lionheart
20:44 / 20.12.01
in the osama bin laden photos check the distance from the eye to the tip of the nose. they don't match!
 
 
Naked Flame
22:09 / 20.12.01
video compression could also produce some of the blotching effects that we're seeing in 3 of the above pics.

My personal jury is still out, although not because of the evidence above.

Frankly, if they wanted to fake something this important, I think they'd be using something more sophisticated than a lookalike.
 
 
Ethan Hawke
10:51 / 21.12.01
Cameron, I'm not entirely convinced by your evidence yet. Could you post a few more photos of Jennifer Lopez in various poses and lighting so that I can judge for myself? I think some stills from that video where she's writhing on the beach would be helpful for me to make up my mind...
 
 
Ethan Hawke
10:58 / 21.12.01
On a serious note, CNN has posted errata to the government translation, based on a translation made by two independent translators affilaited with a Saudi Arabian Human Rights Group. The Translators claim bin Laden names not one, but nine[ of the hijackers by name, and identifies them by their tribe. He also names 3 prominant Saudi Clerics who supported the attack.

There's also this statement:
quote:One more striking example of detail left out of the government translation, according to Al-Ahmed and the independent translator: Bin Laden's description of exactly what he said to others just before the radio announcement that the first of the attacks had succeeded.

They quoted him as saying he told followers, "When you hear a breaking news announcement on the radio, kneel immediately, and that means they have hit the World Trade Center."


I suppose this won't convince any disbelievers in OBL's complicity at this time, or in the veracity of the tape itself.

full story here
 
 
Ethan Hawke
11:00 / 21.12.01
Oh, and additional tapes may be forthcoming:

More tapes seized from Al Qaeda locations in Afghanistan
 
 
penitentvandal
11:14 / 21.12.01
And let us not discount the possibility that OBL has eaten all the pies to celebrate his recent mass murder-type activities...

Halal pies only, of course, of course...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
11:40 / 21.12.01
I must admit that I initially thought it was genuine only on the grounds that it didn't really matter now whether the US has found proof or not.

Interestingly in a video address in Pakistan yesterday President Blair was claiming that the war was fought to free people from the Taliban, something that I notice wasn't admitted before the fighting started...
 
 
CameronStewart
12:06 / 21.12.01
>>>in the osama bin laden photos check the distance from the eye to the tip of the nose. they don't match! <<<<

A few people have emailed this to me, all using the exact same still frame from the video. Why only one? Out of however many hundreds of thousands of possible frames to isolate from the tape, why not pull out an entire series, dozens of them, that clearly indicates the supposed difference in bone structure, nose size, etc, from a variety of angles, instead of one carefully-chosen, poorly-lit frame?

I admit the still frame pictured above does look quite different from the face we've seen plastered all over the papers and CNN, but it's only ONE FRAME. When you see the video actually MOVING, particularly when he's in profile, his nose looks the proper size...
 
 
Dao Jones
13:19 / 21.12.01
Are we to understand that the mighty NSA produced a disinformation document so poorly executed that you can detect it with the naked eye, without the benefit of forensic data analysis?

For something this important, I rather imagine the goverment of the USA could afford some decent digital work, don't you? They could always contract it out to ILM.

Grow a lobe.
 
 
MJ-12
13:33 / 21.12.01
Oh sure they they could, but then everyone would be thinking that it's too perfect. This way, they double-bluff people into accepting it because it isn't perfect, see? Or is that really stretching it?
 
 
Dao Jones
13:48 / 21.12.01
I'm going to assume you're joking, rather than so immersed in the X-Files that such reasoning actually has a hold on your mind.

Although given your choice of alias, I suppose there's a real possibility that you're being absolutely serious.

Why is everyone so keen to believe this tape isn't real? Is it so hard to believe that the government was right, that Bush was right, that Bin Laden is the shithead responsible for the atrocity that took place in New York, and that the response, both military, political and quasi-theoretical (the ongoing rejection of any kind of responsibility for the hatred of the US which sadly prevails in some nations of the world) is mad, bad, and dangerous?

Our bastards can be right. They can and do correctly identify the other bastards.
 
 
MJ-12
13:55 / 21.12.01
My suggestion is that everyone who believes it is a fake will find a reason to call it fake. Everyone who believes it is legit will find some way to gainsay the believers. And back and forth. There are propbably about twelve people on the planet that could be swayed one way or the other.
 
 
Lionheart
14:32 / 21.12.01
well, if anybody can find a link to a download of the video and post it up then we can compare the noses.
 
 
grant
14:45 / 21.12.01
If the nose doesn't fit, you must acquit!
 
 
Dao Jones
15:00 / 21.12.01
I don't believe this, is what I don't believe. It's pathetic. Who the hell really imagines it's possible to tell from one low-res frame whether or a tape is genuine?

For god's sake, there's no actual guarantee the original photo is genuine either - the man in the video could be Bin Laden and the guy in the picture an impostor. But you know what? They probably both are. It's like when you go to the office, do you assume your fellow workers walked, drove, or parachuted in?
 
 
MJ-12
15:29 / 21.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Dao Jones:
For god's sake, there's no actual guarantee the original photo is genuine either - the man in the video could be Bin Laden and the guy in the picture an impostor.


That assumes that there is a real bin Laden at all, and not merely a fabrication of the intel community and their running dogs of the media from the get-go.

But you know what? They probably both are. It's like when you go to the office, do you assume your fellow workers walked, drove, or parachuted in?

I assume most of my co-workers appeared in a fart of fire and brimstone directly from Satan's asshole
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:41 / 22.12.01
The thing that bugs me isn't so much the veracity of the tape itself, but the fact that this is now "evidence" which they'll tell us about... whereas before they claimed they had PROOF POSITIVE but wouldn't 'fess up what it was... I assume from the fact that now they have some they'll show it to all and sundry, they didn't actually have any before.
Also, I don't speak the right language. The guy could be saying anything. OK, chances are he IS saying what they tell us he is and he DID do it, but chucking a bunch of footage at me in a foreign language and going "AAAAHHH! NOW do you see?" isn't the way to prove a point.
And yes, our guys CAN get stuff right, but they can still get stuff WRONG- "Anthrax 'Terror' Ship" anyone?

Also, slight change of subject, but does anyone know if video evidence is admissible in a war crimes tribunal thingy?

[ 22-12-2001: Message edited by: Moominstoat ]
 
 
CameronStewart
10:32 / 22.12.01
>>>Also, I don't speak the right language. The guy could be saying anything.<<<

Well, it's not like he's speaking some made-up language - I'm sure there's plenty of people who speak Arabic who'd notice if the translation was off.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:40 / 22.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Moominstoat:
Also, slight change of subject, but does anyone know if video evidence is admissible in a war crimes tribunal thingy?


There seems to be very little, if anything at all, which is non-permissable in a war crimes tribunal nowadays.
 
 
Dao Jones
16:41 / 22.12.01
quote:I assume from the fact that now they have some they'll show it to all and sundry, they didn't actually have any before.

Let's try a thought experiment, shall we? You are the US government. You have a staggeringly powerful Signals Intelligence system (radio, wiretaps, some internet, satellites, spyplanes etc.) but your Human Intelligence (spies) blows like a whale's sphincter.

So: your flagship city gets blown to hell and one of your allies (for the sake of argument) shares with you some Human Intelligence derived material.

If you show the world, the source will die, and you will probably be very, very unpopular with that ally. They will certainly not trust you with their toys any more, and you need those toys for your war.

(If it's your own source, of course, it's pretty much the only one you've got, so you want to keep it safe. Because if word gets out that you don't protect your sources, you won't ever get any more.)

The only drawback is that if you don't show the public the material, some of them may grumble that you're after this guy with no evidence. And of course, you can't show this evidence to the Taliban to get extradition. And in any case if you showed either the fringe or the Taliban the evidence you have (illegally) obtained, they would probably say it was a fake.

What do you do?
 
 
Naked Flame
17:53 / 22.12.01
With all due respect, Dao, that argument blows. It would apply if they ever intended to use any kind of legal process. But they don't, do they? It's trial by media, wanted dead or alive, men in white hats versus men in black turbans. That's not how it really is, we all know that, but that's the way Washington is fighting the media war.

Imagine that you have a terrorist crisis, and you can't prove who did it but you know who you want to have killed for doing it... wh at would you do?

Some independent translations have now come to light at Seethru. Some of them are very funny.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
18:04 / 22.12.01
I don't doubt that bin Laden's people were behind the attacks. What worries me is that we in the US weren't given the evidence because we're not wise enough to deal with it, only Imperial Bush II seems to be. And that they messed with the translation so that our vow to "Get them all" wouldn't lead us to Saudi Arabia, since they have oil we seem to need.

Oh, and War Tribunal? That's Clinton era. Bushies just blow shit up and let the chips fall where they may. They don't need no stinking badges....
 
 
Dao Jones
18:42 / 22.12.01
Flame:

quote:With all due respect, Dao, that argument blows.You're making lots of noise. Do you have anything to say?

quote:It would apply if they ever intended to use any kind of legal process.No, pissant, it applies because if you tell the world 'hey, we have this information which we couldn't possibly have unless there was a spy in Osama's living room', your spy will die.

And then you have no spy, and no one really wants to spy for you any more because fuck, that's how you end up? Thanks, I'll pass. And if you're really unlucky, your spy was also friends with a bunch of local moderates or resistance guys, and they get burned, too, and your chances of a decent government after this mess is over drop a notch.

Need I go on? Or is your head out of your ass now?

quote:It's trial by media, wanted dead or alive, men in white hats versus men in black turbans.It's not even trial. The administration has taken itself way outside the boundaries of US law, and congress seems utterly uninterested in checking the executive, probably because of the midterms. Anyone 'tried' by the military courts will never even know the charges against them. Three out of five judges are needed for a quorum and two of three for a conviction. The US is increasingly unilateralist and it doesn't care...

[ 22-12-2001: Message edited by: Dao Jones ]
 
 
Naked Flame
02:21 / 23.12.01
I wonder where this spy came from. Could it perhaps be a benificiary of the long-term US involvement in the whole kaboodle? Oooooh, maybe. But they won't tell us.

There are many potential reasons for the US keeping schtum about sources. Not all of them involve security risks. Some of them would doubtless be somewhat embarrasing. But they won't tell us.

oh and dao- reiterating your post isn't arguing I do understand your point, but there's no more evidence for your POV than there is for Lionheart's 'UBL in wrong nose scandal' theory. Unless a modus operandi estabilshed in Jeffery Archer novels is proof.
 
 
Dao Jones
10:07 / 23.12.01
quote:I wonder where this spy came from. Could it perhaps be a benificiary of the long-term US involvement in the whole kaboodle? Oooooh, maybe. But they won't tell us.Firstly, it's much more likely to be someone else's spy. Second, even if it is an agent directly tied to the US, why the hell should we be told? Why on earth do you need to know? Balance your curiosity with the death of someone who's taking considerable risks.

quote:There are many potential reasons for the US keeping schtum about sources. Not all of them involve security risks. Some of them would doubtless be somewhat embarrasing. But they won't tell us.Flame, you just want to believe you're being lied to. Well, guess what? You are. But more scarily, the US government can't be bothered to lie about most of what it's up to right now. And there's no need for them to do what Lionheart is suggesting. Why do you want this to be a fix so badly?

quoteh and dao- reiterating your post isn't arguingWell, since your opening comment was 'your argument blows', I don't feel any great need to respond to that.

quote:I do understand your point, but there's no more evidence for your POV than there is for Lionheart's 'UBL in wrong nose scandal' theory. Unless a modus operandi estabilshed in Jeffery Archer novels is proof.Oh, fuck you, you little idiot.

The 'modus operandi' I'm describing is common knowledge. In my case, what understanding I have of the intelligence community is drawn from dialogues with current and former intelligence officers of several countries over the last few years.

You don't have to be have special access to know what I've been saying about intelligence gathering is true. You don't have to be particularly well informed to know about the much-bemoaned absence of US 'humint' sources, and the unfortunate lack of expertise at the CIA in dealing with them. For some reason, squeaky-clean Ivy League grads don't always make great case officers.

I'm just pointing out that in this case, the explanation given for not revealing evidence makes good sense. There's no particular reason to think it's a lie.

You're talking about legal processes - that's frankly not relevant. You mention a media war - which would argue for releasing material earlier. You mention the desire to kill Osama Bin Laden - and you're suggesting a faked tape. Why now? If it's that bad, it didn't take long to make.

Your construction is senseless and childish. You want to find a big, glorious lie and bring down the whole fiction. Grow up. Do the work.
 
 
Naked Flame
12:43 / 23.12.01
Have a cookie, Dao.

quote: Flame, you just want to believe you're being lied to.

Nope. I just want to demonstrate the devaluation of truth as a currency. You may very well be right, but we will never know. Not because of any kind of conspiracy, but because the waters are now so muddied that the truth will remain indistinguishable from lies. Your argument may very well be the gospel truth, but like the rest of us, you're forced to make assumptions (the spy in Osama's living room... yes, it's plausible, but that doesn't automatically make it fact.)

Taking it as read that the tape is real, it shows UBL knew about the attack in advance, knew some of the people concerned, celebrated its occurence, and was keen to claim some responsibility in front of a pretty specific audience. We still know nothing, frankly. He could be bullshitting the sheik, he could have masterminded the whole thing.

At no point have I said I believed the tape was fake. If I recall, I said I don't think it matters one way or the other whether it's real. it's going to take a great deal more than that to convince me that the US/allies have a moral right to this war anyway.

Oh, and this...

quote:why the hell should we be told? Why on earth do you need to know? Balance your curiosity with the death of someone who's taking considerable risks.

Because- to pull a random example out of the air- there are still people in the world that think that the Israelis blew up the towers, because they stood to benefit from it... now we can all see the ludicrousness of such a POV, but if someone's prepared to kill for it, we ought to publically refute it.

<soapbox>LAW NOT WAR!</soapbox>

And can we please back off on the hostility? It's one thing to diss someone's argument: it's quite another to hurl abuse. Verrry curious to know what you hope to achieve by it.
 
 
tom-karika nukes it from orbit
14:07 / 23.12.01
I have tried running four stills from the video, an any other usable photos I can find, as many of them face on as possible, thru the Gimp (photoshop clone). A total of 12 images

Only two of the video stills matched each other with any degree of accuracy. The other two were too blurry.

None of the video stills matched any other photos, but then again, only four of the photos ha the same measurement as each other, and only two other photos matched each other. The other two were non-matching with any other photos

Does this mean that there are at least 3 Bin Laden lookalikes, or does it mean that you simply cannot do scientific image analysis with shots from different cameras, adapted for different TV screen types (NTSC/PAL). from very odd angles and dodgy lighting?

(Oh yeah, the beard doesn't help matters as well, you can't tell where his chin is. Is there a way to post non-website photos on here, the ones I marked up?)

[ 23-12-2001: Message edited by: Special K.Karika ]

[ 23-12-2001: Message edited by: Special K.Karika ]
 
 
Lionheart
20:44 / 23.12.01
Special: What are you measuring exactly? and can you put up the photo stills?
 
 
Dao Jones
09:44 / 24.12.01
Flame - if you want to avoid getting yelled at, I recommend you avoid opening a discussion with little sweetheart comments like 'your argument blows'. So if you'll stop throwing Jeffrey Archer and such other crap at me, I won't call you a fucking idiot. Okay?

quote:Because- to pull a random example out of the air- there are still people in the world that think that the Israelis blew up the towers, because they stood to benefit from it... now we can all see the ludicrousness of such a POV, but if someone's prepared to kill for it, we ought to publically refute it.You're living proof of the fallacy of that argument. Do you imagine that someone who believes Mossad were responsible for the whole thing is going to believe any form of documentary evidence to the contrary? They're just going to see a more extreme version of what you're considering. Someone who sees Israel or the US government in this has already gone way more levels of conspiracy into it than documentary evidence is ever going to shift.

'Law Not War'. Nice slogan. Of course, we spend a lot of time bitching about laws here, don't we? How about something a little more complex, a little less catchy, which might capture the thrust of what we need a bit more fully? Let's not play to the soundbite culture more than we have to.

Moral right to war...I don't know, Flame. Does war even have access to moral right? Can you theorise around the events of the last few months? Can you show a 'right course'? A smart move? I couldn't at the time, and I'm not sure I can with hindsight.

It would have been great to act through the UN, but they don't have a mandate for this kind of thing, unless the member states were prepared to go with a wayyy more flexible interpretation of the charter than they ever have before - "Maintenance of international peace and security" has always been defined in terms of trans-border aggression. The charter wasn't written with this kind of thing in mind and it shows.

Bah. This situation is a screw up. I don't think it serves anyone. But I also don't see a great help in shouting 'fraud' at the video tape. To hell with that. The important and terrifying thing is what's happening inside the US, to the constitution and make-up of the country. Because rights are vanishing like spring snow...
 
 
Naked Flame
09:44 / 24.12.01
I apologise for my tone, in that case.

There's no right course. But I believe protest, in all its many forms, has the power to change the culture of violence that creates situations like this. The time to start plotting a right course was 25, 50, 100 years ago: if we change now, the future wars of this century may be averted.

But of course, this is all threadrot. Perhaps we'd not have had this argument if we'd been talking in a less paranoid thread.

The meat of this thread seems to be not the binary fake/genuine, but in the contemplation of a situation in which the worst implications of both interpretations seem to apply at once.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
09:44 / 24.12.01
I've got to admit, it's threads like this that convince me more and more of the validity of the videotape, simply because of the faintly ridiculous dubiousness of the the 'wrong nose' position... I wouldn't want any position I held to be associated with that kind of cryptocrypto crap. So I'm having a rethink.

Flame, I wouldn't worry about the attitude you're getting... searing and coherent debate coupled with childish argumentative bollocks is what the Dao Jones suit is for... it's an agitator pose for a collective of intelligent people, not a real person. Still, glad to see someone here is still capable of being a complete gentleman when facing down the Jones boys. God knows I don't have that kind of self-control.
 
 
invisible_al
09:44 / 24.12.01
Just a small point but even if Osma Bin Laden isn't responsible for this bombing he's already been convicted in a US court of law of planning the first World Trade center bomb.

As for the video, I want to believe :-). Well its just the sort of thing that happens, man with small penis boasting to his best mates at a private party. Someone has a video camera, video gets into the hands of the yanks by means unknown. Its just stupid enough to be true, along with the CIA etc missing sept 11th, thats stupid enough to be true as well.

*sigh* Other people can be as incompetant as the US goverment.
 
 
000
18:19 / 25.12.01
What you can also do , is compare video's from OBL with this fake video.
Look at the way this man walks in, the way he is aware of the camera, the way he sits down, the way he assumes the sitting position, the way he moves his hands and touches his face, the way he smiles, the water retaining hands and fingers, OBL has strong lean hands and long fingers, and strong pronounced face features this man has round fat swollen cheeks and their lips differ as well, OBL has nice full lips, this men has a thinner and smaller mouth. Obl has strong present long eyebrows, this man has short eyebrows and not as thick as OBL. Then their nose, OBL has a strong long nose that ends mush lower aboves his lips, this man has a much shorter nose and not strong at all, compare to OBL his nose, he has almost a sharp short pointy nose and the tip of his nose is pointy, OBL his nose looks almost as if he has broken it once in his life as a youngster, almost like a light weight boxer nose.

Then the shoulders; OBL has straight brought shoulders, were as this man has round fat shoulders, his belly OBL has no belly this man has, theirs legs, OBL has long lean muscled legs, this man has short fat/bigger legs.
Then their hair, OBL has dark black-brownish hair, when this all started the 911, OBL had less grey hair and during these last months he got more grey hairs all over his head and beard.
The neckline, OBL has a high neck hair line and he actually has soft curly hair, not hard frizzy hair, the man has a very low hair neckline it even looks like this man might have course hair on his shoulders that might even go down to his back, juk. And the grey in his way to dark black beard is neatly styled into two sections.

And also very important, this man was not sick, and OBL is sick. He suffers from bad kidneys and because of what has happened and the way they have been hunting him down, he has not been able to go for cleansing.
If you have followed the news than you have seen him gradually becoming more tired and older looking, you have been able to follow his hair greying process, OBL is sick.

And the man on the absolute fake tape, started to make OBL his hand signs, but he made a big mistake over and over again, he did not used his hands to emphasis his words,. When OBL talks he uses his hands signs to emphasis his words or the topic or he closes a topic with his hands, this man was a bad lip singer, not enough Kareoke I guess.

You know it doesn’t matter if those , saying its fake have a reason, or that those who say its real also have a reason, saying this does not take away what matters and that is the truth, and wanting to know the truth, one must ask the only thing that matters and that is the question, why was this tape made, why did they wait so long to show it, and what do they think that they can gain from it. This is what is relevant, the question, why?

It does not matter what they say about OBL, he was not behind the WTC 911 , he is about the real ISLAM, the blue book and not the green book, and people don’t seem to realize one thing, 60 countries are on the hit list from Bush and they all happen to be the 60 original countries of the indigenous people. With these 60 countries under their siege, they are gods on earth and we, all the free people will have become slaves. Anybody seen the Denver new airport murals?
With OBL gone or even better in their eyes dead, we will have lost the last freedom fighter who dear to show his face out in the open and oppose loudly and act upon it. Ghadaffi, Castro and Hussein they are old men, they can wait for them to die and then they take their countries over anyway, or so they prefer to think. No OBL is way to young and way to sainty , loved and honoured, he is they only real treat, also because he seems to have something with predictions made in the past concerning our present time and near future.

Why do they want all these countries, why do they really want Cuba for instance? http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/2001206/sc/cuba_discovery_dc_1.html see here the historical reason. Pyramids under Cuban waters, older than the Giza pyramids.

Sudan , why in heavens name have they always hated Sudan, Somalia, Eritrea and Ethiopia?
Well they were the absolute first humans, Eve was a black female from Sudan, and the first goddess known to earth humans was female and black. Here you have a simple link, a bit simple but it tells you known facts to the Vatican and the male dominated religious worlds, the mere reason why the first original Knight Templar were hunted down , they wanted to tell this secret to the world, and the reigning royals and church did not want that at all. Egypt started for real in Sudan. http://www.sacredmysteries.com/page 9c.html “The Black Maddona”

Your dollar bill, the pyramid, Egyptian not the one you think, but the real one Sudan formerly known as Kush, it’s the pyramid of Kush now Sudan. http://www.davidicke.net/mysteries/pyramid/sudan.html


Now what does all this have to do with OBL? Well he is fighting for mamma Egypt Sudan/Islam. And his links to the English royals keeps creeping up as well. So England, well we know what the ties are with the US, and that OBL is also linked to the Bush family, and the Bush family again with the English royals. So here we are right back in England. Now proof that England has some heavy secret interest in Africa and the Islam , see Knight Templar the Rosslyn Chapel in Edinburgh, the Crusades and http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/scotland/newsid_1692000/1692644.stm A sacred Ethiopian artefact has been discovered…in Edinburgh. One of the oldest psi centres of the world is in Edinburgh..mmm

You know what we see evolving in front of our eyes in the news daily, is nothing less than seeing the maze, the web unfolding, every day one can find new information that are pieces to the puzzle of what they have been hiding and what their real interests are, so many interests it’s a matrix of lies all entwined, but somebody is cutting in these robes that make this matrix, and the treads are slowly coming apart, isn’t that interesting? And we must not and never forget that the Islam is the first Black goddess religion, and the only female religion left, and guarded by the wrong shepherds.

Merry X-Mass and a interesting 2002, 2001 was just a appetizer for you guys from your governments


[ 25-12-2001: Message edited by: Laila ]
 
  

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