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Disempowered by the belief in genius?

 
 
No star here laces
14:46 / 28.08.02
I had a very interesting argument with a couple of friends the other week, and ended up putting forward the following thesis.

We have a very strong belief in genius - in individuals who can come up with ideas that no-one else could have thought of. But maybe this is a) not true and b) not helpful to our progress as a species.

There are billions of people in the world. Maybe these great leaps forward in science, art and philosophy that we attribute to genius are merely ideas whose time has come, things that had Einstein, Marx or Mandela not done, someone else would have. And maybe, to take one step further, if we didn't believe that some big idea needs to be thought up by someone else, someone smarter than us, we'd all just get on with improving the world in our own small ways.

All progress that we've ever acheived seems to come incrementally - look at the way women are treated in society. This slowly improves little by little, year by year. It didn't suddenly all become okay when "The second sex" or "The female eunuch" were published. Jews are incomporably more accepted in society now, than 200 years ago, and may offer a beacon of hope to other minorities. This change has happened gradually too.

Maybe these 'great leaps forward' are utterly illusory, and actually the belief in them serves to help the status quo because they make the small things we can all acheive every day seem less significant.

Do you agree? If this is true how should we act on it? Also - Nick, you were probably right on micro vs macro...
 
 
Persephone
15:08 / 28.08.02
Hooray, micro forever! Going through your post highlighting all the good bits... and now I must get the glass cleaner to wipe my computer monitor. Sorry --emotional response first. Will be back with a rational line of thought and some specifics, I promise.
 
 
Little Mother
15:10 / 28.08.02
Maybe there are great leaps but they don't always change the whole of society, like the status of women. Maybe they come most often in thing that don't interest the mass media very much, even at the time, like quantum physics. You can change the way a relatively small group of people who are bothering to look anyway see the world relatively quickly but it is a lot harder to change the viewpoint of the 'unwashed masses', even if you have just twigged the answer to life, the universe and everything
 
 
sleazenation
15:29 / 28.08.02
I tend to think of the concept of genius as being inherantly tied to ideas of authorship and specifically the enlightenment notion of the creative author/god. Its not that a genius created something that would never have been created otherwise - it is that individuals work to solve problems with different degrees of success and different methods. Tthe car or train was not invented by a geniuses - the were created piecemeal with people building solidly on the discoveries of others.
 
 
Fist Fun
16:00 / 28.08.02
Small advances can produce huge changes. That is the whole idea of the Tipping Point. I think many people recognised as being special have been quick to pay respects to other people and to simple legwork. "Standing on the shoulder of giants" and "1% inspiration 99% perspiration". Perhaps part of being a genius is having the insight and ability to build on the work of others and to put in the groundwork. As an ordinary individual how easy is it to put in the 99% hard work when you doubt that the special 1% exists to make it worthwhile?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:19 / 28.08.02
But what are we calling genius here? Was Newton a genius, or just an average bloke who had a good idea after an apple fell on his head (I know it didn't really, but anyway...)? Was Darwin a genius or just an average bloke who put two and two together after doing lots of research and then nicked someone else's idea? I would question for example, whether Marx, Mandela, de Beauvoir or Greer from your post are geniuses. Three of them produced well-known works but that is different, and what has Mandela done that justifies him being a genius? An example of what is good about humankind, quite possibly, but again that is another issue.

What are our definitions here?
 
 
Seth
17:52 / 28.08.02
I like the original Latin meaning of the word "genius," meaning a guardian deity or spirit which watches over each individual from birth. In dreamwork or shamanic work it's highly likely that this guardian is the externalised representation of the ideal, true self of a person, and that the highest achievement possible, the true work of genius that we should all aspire to is just be ourselves. And when I say "be ourselves," I mean passionately, bravely and wonderfully, whatever other people think our hand should be turned to, no matter what the consensus definition of success is.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
18:02 / 28.08.02
I'd suggest that Paul Erdos was a pretty irrefutable genius. Other brilliant mathematicians are in awe of Erdos. His proofs were frequently more elegant and more instructive than others, and so on.

I'd agree that frequently people are accorded the title genius simply because they are brilliant once, or recognise an idea whose 'time has come' - whatever, exactly, that means.

It may also be a distinguishing mark of a genius that s/he sees the obvious thing which other minds miss.

I don't think there is a quality, 'genius'. I do think there are individuals who are functionally gifted in one or many fields, and that it's a bit ludicrous to deny that they exist. It may be that anyone has the possibility, the capacity, to genius, but that most lack the will, the temperament, the opportunity - even the field in which they could excell: perhaps it does not yet exist, or doesn't exist any more.

In my field, and I suspect it applies in others, I tend to think that anyone could do it, but that not everyone can.

I am lousy at maths. I mean, truly lousy. Like, I can't add fifteen and twenty seven together and reliably get the same number three times in a row. And I didn't know beforehand that the answer was Douglas Adams' fave number, but it seems oddly appropriate. Yet there is a feeling in my head, like an unstretched muscle, that tells me that if I had the will, if I cared, if I had to, there's a bit of my mind which could be good at that stuff.

We all have capacities we don't use and can't deploy.

But Lyra, there's a counter-argument to your suggestion that the notion of genius holds us back: if a single person truly can change the world, then it's worth trying. If all we can do is make tiny incremental differences, and these will happen anyway when an idea's time has come, we may as well just sit back and enjoy the show. Perhaps genius - even the illusion of genius - is a spur that throws us forward.

Related thought: there's no such thing as a power vaccuum, just a sort of Lagrange Point, where power exerted in opposing directions is briefly neutral. In such a space, a political person may make a striking difference, and be called a genius (or a monster) and yet their only skill was in seizing the moment. That seizure will put them at the head of a nation or a movement...but not do the same with their agenda, which will swiftly be assailed by the re-aligning powers which were in check during the Lagrange Point moment.

Is there a broader application of this idea to genius in science and literature, I wonder?

It seems to me this is a question of Agency as much as Authorship, and also of free will, capacity and potential. In other words, this one is about what it is to be a human.
 
 
Kase Taishuu
18:39 / 28.08.02
Otto Weininger made a distinction between genius and talented back in the late xixth century you might find interesting. ^^
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
18:57 / 28.08.02
Hm. Yes, well, Otto said so much which is spurious that it's hard him to take seriously. However, as an example of the kind of thing which has been said about genuis to spark this discussion:

The man of genius takes his place in the above argument as he who understands incomparably more other beings than the average man. Goethe is said to have said of himself that there was no vice or crime of which he could not trace the tendency in himself, and that at some period of his life he could not have understood fully. The genius, therefore, is a more complicated, more richly endowed, more varied man; and a man is the closer to being a genius the more men he has in his personality, and the more really and strongly he has these others within him. If comprehension of those about him only flickers in him like a poor candle, then he is unable, like the great poet, to kindle a mighty flame in his heroes, to give distinction and character to his creations. The ideal of an artistic genius is to live in all men, to lose himself in all men, to reveal himself in multitudes; and so also the aim of the philosopher is to discover all others in himself, to fuse them into a unit which is his own unit. . . .

BTW Lyra, thanks.
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
20:14 / 28.08.02
Genius is a subject far out of my league but before I run away all bewildered like

We have a very strong belief in genius - in individuals who can come up with ideas that no-one else could have thought of.

Isn't coming up with ideas that no one else could have though of part of being an individual?

By the same strain would you refer to the alumni of the Darwin Awards as genius?

Genius probably requires a little better definition than this.
 
 
Lurid Archive
20:24 / 28.08.02
A belief in genius, if used to drive self improvement can only be a valuable thing. If however, this belief is used as an excuse for one's failings, then it becomes corrosive. Waiting around for someone to solve all our problems sounds like a negative way to live.

Having said that, there are people who would be fairly classified in the genius category. However, there is often a matter of debate about what constitutes real genius and whether a particular person falls into that category. I tend to think it is an overused term.

One of the areas that is easiest to make this kind of assessment is mathematics and that is probably why Nick has pointed out Erdos as an example of a genius. But there are a couple of points to make here.

Nick talks about his inability to do sums. I think that he is almost certainly right that he is in part accepting his lack of proficiency. A reasonably intelligent person should be able to get to grips with the essentials of most skills. Genius, on the other hand, is a long way removed from this. Erdos had insights that other talented, dedicated people found insightful. That sort of thing doesn't come by working hard.

On the other hand, if I look at Nick's last post "The genius, therefore, is a more complicated, more richly endowed, more varied man", then I'd say that by this criterion Erdos wouldn't be classed a genius. I mean, the man had a talent in a single areas of maths. Hardly a varied man.

On the whole, I'd agree with Lyra's caution. The notion of a person who can single handedly take on all our intellectual "baddies" seems of dubious origin. I can picture those bad guys raining bullets upon her and she still barely smudges her make up. What a woman.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
02:22 / 29.08.02
Is this thread rot? I'm not sure:

I think the problem with extraordinary individuals and particularly the concept of the genius is that humanity genuinely makes the assumption that the words genius and good go hand in hand with one another. This clearly is not true, a genius does not have to be a good person or even use their intelligence to good ends, I suspect that this attitude is more likely to stifle ordinary individuals from realising their potential for good. They leave it all for those who come under the heading of genius when they are just as unlikely to perform good acts.
 
 
Persephone
03:08 / 29.08.02
Not that I don't think that it's interesting to define genius, but I'm thinking that perhaps "greatness" --I sound like the butler from Remains of the Day-- may serve better in the context of Lyra's original statement?
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
06:21 / 29.08.02
Possibly. That's why I bring up this issue of agency: can a single individual direct the course of the world? Or do the examples which come to mind conceal a structural movement which was 'inevitable'? My feeling is that people like Lenin, Hoffman, Thatcher do place a unique stamp on events, but that there is a window in which they can act - one of my lagrange points. They set the tone for what is, in structural terms, the expression of pressures built up over some time.

This idea does apply to the notion of genius, but in both cases I think it would be easy, in the quest for a democratic perception of individuals, to underestimate the contribution of that one person. It could not be just anyone in that role - in fact, in some cases, there may be no one else who, at that time and in that place, would spot the thing they spot, have their revelation.

I'm not happy with this - I've gone wrong somewhere, but I don't have time to explore it right now - will return to this later.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:50 / 29.08.02
On an inappropriately science note; there have been some really fascinating thoughts about the behaviour of humans in large groups. More specifically, physicists have been applying what they know about things like magnetism, fluid dynamics and dynamic effects in material science to large scale human interactions. Its all very tentative and undeveloped but the preliminary results seem to suggest that one can understand the behaviour of people in economics and voting patterns by treating them as if they are mindless "particles" affected by forces around them. A persons opinions are then akin to the bobbing of a smoke particle in Brownian motion. (I'll try to dig up links - but Newscientist doesn't have free archives).

Cynics will think this is obvious, I think it disturbing. I have no idea what it says about "great" figures coming along and influencing the tide of events, though it would support Nick's lagrange point thesis. All this science nonsense still leaves us with the obvious question. Can a person influence large scale events, or do those events provide the person?

If I think of Thatcher, then I believe a case can be made that the world was ripe for her kind of thinking. On the other hand, her fervour and success at a particular set of ideas was probably personal and may have influenced the popularity of her "cause". The question is whether this simply affected the tone of her actions, or whether some positive feedback really took place. Did she help create a UK where all politicians are Thatcherites? Or is that an impressive sounding, but ultimately shallow observation? Over what time scale should such things be judged?
 
 
Morlock - groupie for hire
13:01 / 29.08.02
Hmmm, I think we have to be careful defining genius in terms of its effect on the world. The works of Copernicus and Galileo could easily have been lost due to the circumstances at the time. Even if it had been reproduced by someone else at a later date, the delay could have had all kinds of consequences. For want of a nail, etc.
Less that it is an idea whose time has come, but more that the environment's right for the idea to flourish.

To me, genius seems to be less about being able to recognise the future and more about chucking entrails about until you get a recognisable reading. But I'm just repeating others, there.

However, I would arge that we restrict ourselves further when considering the little things than the big leaps of intuition. Nothing worse than someone who believes you need special genes to wire a plug or use e-mail. Easier for some, maybe, but never impossible.
 
 
No star here laces
13:02 / 29.08.02
I like to think that it's more the fact that although individuals can alter large scale events, the effects are rarely positive socially or politically.

I have a vaguely marxian belief that humanity is progressing towards a better society, and that eventually we will come to a good solution. But it seems that the issues involved are far too convoluted for the simplistic solution of one individual to ever work. What is required is the empowering of all individuals to effect change on the small scale, within their sphere of influence, this way we can progress incrementally towards an asymptotic utopia.

The belief in genius and big solutions actually works as a counter to this incremental progress, if you accept the above schema.

The argument in science is slightly different.

Again, it piggybacks off a common theory - the idea of paradigm shifts in scientific understanding. A paradigm (e.g. newtonian physics) is established and incremental progress made within that paradigm until the limits of the paradigm become apparent. At that point a new paradigm is established (e.g. Einsteinian physics). It is natural for us to assume that the individual responsible for the paradigm shift is in some way 'greater' than the one who makes incremental progress. But is this really the case? Or are they just working at the right time. Anyone familiar with pre-war physics could envisage that Niels Bohr or Heisenberg or Fermi or Dirac could have made the breakthroughs Einstein made, had conditions been slightly different.

If this is the case, then the lauding of individuals who happen to establish a paradigm shift acheives nothing except a disempowering of individuals who have not established such a shift...
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:48 / 29.08.02
Totally agree, Lyra. Paradigm shifts in science are absurdly over emphasised - especially the Newtonian to Einsteinian shift - in a way that completely ignores the fact that progress builds on past success. But then I believe this phenomenon is partly due to lazy, wishful thinking. The idea being that if one is a genius, then everything is "easy". This is from the "If only people would realise *insert favourite meme*" school of revolution.

True genius requires a hell of a lot of work for its proper expression.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:13 / 29.08.02
Actually, Lurid, I'm not sure that's true - if I remember my Popper, the paradigm shift is about exactly what you describe - it's not a sudden revelation, but the moment when one body of work describing the world is replaced by another one. The two could be simultaneous, in the case of a theory proposed which immediately presented better explanations and so on, but more usually the discovery is made, work is done, and then the paradigm shifts because the new idea has a greater hold on the world.

Morlock: To me, genius seems to be less about being able to recognise the future and more about chucking entrails about until you get a recognisable reading. But I'm just repeating others, there.

I'd say the point of genius was that you could skip that part. Erdos had an uncanny knack for going straight to the point - finding elementary proofs. He did his first one at 17, I think.

Genius is a label is often accorded to people who habitually take shortcuts the rest of us have trouble following, and display an instinctive understanding which is backed by hard work, the combination of which is unmatched by others.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:47 / 29.08.02
I was really thinking of Kuhn who I believe popularised the term "paradigm shift".

Funny that you should concentrate on Erdos as a genius. I wonder if that has as much to do with his quirks as he was very, very, odd. Mind you, it is a natural choice as mathematicians jokingly use something called an Erdos number(EN).

[threadrot]
Erdos has an EN of 0, anyone who wrote a paper with Erdos has an EN of 1. Anyone who wrote a paper with someone having an EN of 1 (but not with Erdos himself) has an EN of 2. And so on.

Every mathematician has a very small Erdos number. Mine is 4.
[/threadrot]
 
 
Persephone
18:14 / 29.08.02
I seem to remember reading, or hearing, somewhere that Kuhn himself was utterly horrified at how his idea of paradigm shift was taken up & may have written a paper trying to undo the damage, but was roundly ignored.

This reminds me of Milgrim's six degrees of separation experiment --speaking of having an Erdos number. It's been largely discredited in scholarly circles, but remains all the rage in popular culture. We talked about this in the Tipping Point thread --i.e., a meme doesn't have to be "true" if it serves a need. The Tipping Point itself, I have come to think, is an example of such a meme... and its function may be to counteract this genius meme.

More later. Note to self: truth vs. need.
 
 
Jack Sprat
19:07 / 29.08.02
Maybe these 'great leaps forward' are utterly illusory, and actually the belief in them serves to help the status quo because they make the small things we can all achieve every day seem less significant.

Do you agree? If this is true how should we act on it?

I don't think the idea that genius, or individuals with genius, advance intellectual evolution holds us back or disempowers us. We look at what these people do and the ideas they have presented, and we can be inspired. We can leapfrog on their work and do more than we could if we had never heard the idea or about the individual.

However, the belief in one's own genius (or lack of same) is disempowering. Genius is associated with creative thinking. To specifically strive toward genius or becoming A Genius is to devote oneself to measuring oneself and others and comparing the two, rather than to the subject at hand. In this case, I think the belief in genius is a sure way to blockade your own creativity.

The conflicting theories of intellectual evolution in the abstract -- are the ideas the products of a single great mind, or are they inevitable next steps that happen to fall in the nearest lap? -- seem to me no different than arguments about free will versus fate.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
20:38 / 29.08.02
I would indeed argue that the notion of genius inflicted upon the world at large is disempowering, at least insofar as presupposing that, if genius exists, then the opposite must exist, as well. I'm of the belief that almost everyone (w/the exception, perhaps, of vegetables and whatnot) is intelligent in their own way, i.e. they have their own thing to add to the potluck dinner of humanity.

I would also argue that the notion of genius inflicted upon a supposed individual definitely disempowers that supposed genius and, possibly, the very concept of genius, as well. My varied IQ tests tell me that I'm a "genius". My parents have always told me that I was a "genius". School was a breeze. I've never had much trouble understanding any difficult concepts. But I've rested on my laurels and never put effort into anything. I've done nothing w/this supposed genius and so, in my eyes, it fails to even exist. Genius, as a label, is bandied about far too often. Maybe we don't need it at all, but if we do use it, it should most definitely be reserved for those who actually do excell, rather than those who show the potential to excell. Relating to The Royal Tenenbaums is not a particularly good thing...
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
10:09 / 30.08.02
You can't score genius. If it exists at all, it's a quality of action, not potential. More, IQ tests measure IQ, but no one's ever been able to say exactly what that is. Genius as a label is unexciting. Genius in action is riveting.

Psychometry, on the other hand, may well prevent people from realising their potential.
 
 
Persephone
02:16 / 01.09.02
I feel like I am rushing in to the conference room with my paper and everyone's gone on to the next session...

Well, what's the alternative to "the belief in genius"? What does it mean to believe in genius? There's one idea that some people are basically smarter than other people, and there are a lot of ways to break that idea down... but it seems like it would have to be a pretty willful thing to decide that people don't have differing abilities.

The other idea is that the world is advanced by geniuses --i.e., people with the highest abilities. Or perhaps it's better to say, "people with generally high abilities" since perhaps it's not necessary to be quite up to the level of Einstein and Erdos to make a difference. Actually, that's already breaking down the idea right there in a sort of there-goes-the-neighborhood way. But where was I... the world is advanced by geniuses. And it's sorry Charlie, if you don't happen to be one of the chosen few --which you think you know you're not.

Well, you want to make a difference. What is to be done?

You can take the opposite idea: the world is not advanced by geniuses in great leaps and bounds, but the world is advanced by ordinary men in ordinary time. And with this, you can even chip back into the first idea that there are such things as geniuses at all --or if you can't quite deny their existence, you can deny their importance. And take that importance for yourself.

I think that *would* be initially empowering, but ultimately I think that way lies madness. Because I think it involves denying something that is so apparently true --that geniuses (smart people, and really smart people) do exist. And --I am coming to a rather stupid point-- the world is advanced by geniuses, sometimes. And sometimes by ordinary men. And sometimes you can't tell which is which. And sometimes genius isn't a person but a moment that could happen to you.

So I think that any absolute notion of "great leaps forward by geniuses" or whatever you would call the other thing --"small steps forward by small men"-- is going to be disempowering. I agree with Jack Sprat who says that "conflicting theories of intellectual evolution in the abstract... seem to me no different than arguments about free will versus fate." I believe in free will and fate.

So you know, you sort of... wing it.

And it's very odd, because this isn't what I thought I was going to say.
 
  
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